Need your advice please!!!

redmonkee

redmonkee

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PHILIP
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Hi guys

I recently posted a thread explaining that I have been accepted to photograph Farsley Celtic's home games this coming season. http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=252953

Anyway their first game is this Saturday so I thought i'd drop an email to clarify what time I am going down and also if there is an issue regarding selling my images to any local press ie YEP, T&A, Pudsey Times etc.

I stated that I do not mind the club using my images on their website FOC, however should any local media be interested that they are referred to myself.

I have just received an email saying

"Hi there will be an issue with sales to the local press. But for papers like the non league paper etc it would be fine. Papers like the evening post, pudsey times and telegraph and argus get them free as we need their coverage"

Although I'm gutted this takes away any opportunity of selling my images I do appreciate the experience I will gain from this and it does still give me the chance to get work published (if its good enough:D) and appropriate credit.

What do you guys think I should do?
 
Are the club having images used in the papers at the moment? If no, then there is no reason to give them to the papers for free (in fact, there is no reason for this at all!). After all, credits don't pay bills :)
 
purpleclouds said:
Are the club having images used in the papers at the moment? If no, then there is no reason to give them to the papers for free (in fact, there is no reason for this at all!). After all, credits don't pay bills :)
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I'm not sure to be honest. But I'm so keen to shoot for them I don't want to jeopardize this by refusing to let them use my images in the press.

I think if I was more established i'd be in a better position to assert myself. As it is it would be a kind of i'll scratch your back scenario.
 
Sounds like Farsley AFC need some Ed-you-kay-shun on this.

Perhaps you ought to meet them face-to-face and say that they will publish if they have to pay, it sets you and the club up on a professional footing and will mean that if in the long and distant future Farsley end up playing Man U in the FA Cup you're not losing money and annoying other togs by being a free-merchant.

Perhaps agree a fee-split for any newspaper sales? 60/40 in your favour. That way you and the club benefit financially, the newspapers get their pictures and everyone goes home happy.

The only way to do this is to sit down with Farsley face-to-face, work something out, and then approach the papers face-to-face afterwards and outline the situation.
 
jamesb84 said:
Sounds like Farsley AFC need some Ed-you-kay-shun on this.

Perhaps you ought to meet them face-to-face and say that they will publish if they have to pay, it sets you and the club up on a professional footing and will mean that if in the long and distant future Farsley end up playing Man U in the FA Cup you're not losing money and annoying other togs by being a free-merchant.

Perhaps agree a fee-split for any newspaper sales? 60/40 in your favour. That way you and the club benefit financially, the newspapers get their pictures and everyone goes home happy.

The only way to do this is to sit down with Farsley face-to-face, work something out, and then approach the papers face-to-face afterwards and outline the situation.
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Hi James I know your advice is for a face to face meeting. But how would you word this in an email, as i'm not sure I could arrange a meeting in time for Saturday.
 
Phillip, theres absolutley no way Farsley could or should try to enforce this rubbish, there is simply no way you should be allowing your images to be given free to large newspapers like the Evening Post (part of the massive Johnston Press group) and the Telegraph and Argus, both of these newspapers have photographers who i know personally who have covered Farsley in the past and been paid for it, they would be more than annoyed if they found out they are losing a potential income stream, One is a staffer for the YP who is already miffed that a collegue and fellow staffer lost his job earlier in the year because of free images being given over to papers, not just sports photos but any photos.

Personally, i think you're setting yourself up for a hard time if you allow this to happen.

You must at all costs recieve payment for photos supplied to the EP, YP or T&A or walk away and approach another club.
 
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Gary Coyle said:
Phillip, theres absolutley no way Farsley could or should try to enforce this rubbish, there is simply no way you should be allowing your images to be given free to large newspapers like the Evening Post (part of the massive Johnston Press group) and the Telegraph and Argus, both of these newspapers have photographers who i know personally who have covered Farsley in the past and been paid for it, they would be more than annoyed if they found out they are losing a potential income stream, One is a staffer for the YP who is already miffed that a collegue and fellow staffer lost his job earlier in the year because of free images being given over to papers, not just sports photos but any photos.

Personally, i think you're setting yourself up for a hard time if you allow this to happen.

You must at all costs recieve payment for photos supplied to the EP, YP or T&A or walk away and approach another club.
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I totally agree with you on this Gary. Things like this really do devalue good photography. I just need to explain this clearly in an email, any advice?
 
Phone them up and ask for a meeting asap re photo usage.

Done sit on the fence about it you have to be pro active in making it happen.
 
I'ts difficult and to be honest i would deal with it in a totally different manner than most, im a very in yer face kinda guy, i don't suffer fools so i would be the one laying down the terms and conditions to them, if they dont like the terms then i would walk, after all you were already willing to offer the club your services and images for free, they should reciprocate.

I'm not for a single minute suggesting thats how you should react, im pretty sure there is common ground and things could be ironed out amicably but asking me for advice on mediation is like asking KIPAX who the f are Accrington Stanley.
 
I've just drafted an email, please tell me what you think.

Hi Michael

Thank you for your reply.

With regards to sales to the local press, I do feel it is important that papers such as the Yorkshire Post, Evening Post and the Telegraph & Argus should be paying for any images they use. This is not for the benefit of myself (an amateur) but more for the well being of the industry as a whole.

As part of the massive Johnston Press Group, each paper has a set budget for purchasing such images and the use of free images can cause problems for professional photographers who earn their livelihood from such games and therefore are loosing a potential income stream. I am a mamber of a photography forum and a few of the professional sports photographers on there know of people who shoot for the EP and T&A who have been paid to cover Farsley Celtic in the past, and the thought that I could be taking away their income by supplying free images does not rest well with me.

What i would like to propose would be

1. For the club to use any of my images free of charge on its website

2. Any images to be used in the local press to be sold at the paper's standard rate with:
60% of the sale paid to myself
40% of the sale paid to the club.

I think this would be a much fairer way to proceed. This way i would not be undercutting professional photographers and the club would also receive an income from potential sales.

Please let me know what you think of these proposals.

Kind regards

Phil
 
redmonkee said:
This is not for the benefit of myself (an amateur) but more for the well being of the industry as a whole.
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Oh my god!!

I hope thats what you want to say and not railroaded or bullied into it.. there your pictures and you should decide...
 
redmonkee said:
Hope that comes across ok Tony, as I've just sent the email. Reading it back I may have reworded it better....oh well :shrug:
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Its farsley celtic for gawds sake.. i would be amazed if the papers even want a pic let alone pay for one.. Whats the usual attendance.. 50?

I hope it all works out and you get the right deal.. I also hope you dont lose out and miss the opportunity you crave for ...because your worried about the "industry as a whole".
 
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KIPAX said:
Its farsley celtic for gawds sake.. i would be amazed if the papers even want a pic let alone pay for one.. Whats the usual attendance.. 50?

I hope it all works out and you get the right deal.. I also hope you dont lose out and miss the opportunity you crave for ...because your worried about the "industry as a whole".
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:LOL: point taken.

I'm just one of those people that don't like to hack people off by doing work for free. i think the guys are right though if the EP or T&A want a pic I do think they should pay.
 
redmonkee said:
Hope that comes across ok Tony, as I've just sent the email. Reading it back I may have reworded it better....oh well :shrug:
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A lot better! :bang:

If you are trying to set this up on a professional level then avoid using "This is not for the benefit of myself (an amateur)" and "I am a mamber of a photography forum and a few of the professional sports photographers on there know of people who shoot for the EP and T&A who have been paid to cover Farsley Celtic in the past, and the thought that I could be taking away their income by supplying free images does not rest well with me."

To have an agreement with a club should be exclusive between the two of you and should benefit both. This possibly could mean you attending all home games (and maybe some away?) and supply any images for the club free of charge. But you should be able to source outside payment for yourself without any interference by the club. I think you should have given this more thought before sending the email.
 
redmonkee said:
:LOL: point taken.

I'm just one of those people that don't like to hack people off by doing work for free. i think the guys are right though if the EP or T&A want a pic I do think they should pay.
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SO DO I !!!!!!!

I just think a big deal is being made out of it when the problem will only arrise once every blue moon :)
 
KIPAX said:
SO DO I !!!!!!!

I just think a big deal is being made out of it when the problem will only arrise once every blue moon :)
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I agree but unless I state the situation will not be in a position to ask for a fee should I get lucky further down the line and one of the papers wishes to use a pic.
 
redmonkee said:
I agree but unless I state the situation will not be in a position to ask for a fee should I get lucky further down the line and one of the papers wishes to use a pic.
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well if you feel that strongly and your prepared to miss out for it then fair enough... but thats not what you said in the original post at the end...

i beleive you should be paid..why not.. everyone else does:) i just cant see it being a big probvlem much... would be amazed if yorkshire post give too much coverage to them
 
KIPAX said:
SO DO I !!!!!!!

I just think a big deal is being made out of it when the problem will only arrise once every blue moon :)
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Not really Tony, Farsley do get quite a bit of coverage in the EP, there was massive local coverage and a fair bit of National earlier this year when they faced losing their ground and later when they pulled out of the Conference, the YP were instrumantal in getting the National TV and Sky down there to give some much needed exposure to their story.

There were back page stories in the Evening Post when they were resurected and local and National TV coverage yet again

Search the Yorkshire Evening Post website to see the amount of coverage they give to Farsley, a quick call to my mate concurred that he was sent regular to Farsley when they were in the conference League.
 
I know gary.. i went myself to the playoffs there..

I mean now.. the future... next week and the week after,.,.. the league they are in and the amount of people interested in the club now will ahve a massive effect on how much coverage they get

the club being small and wanting as much coverage as it can will be offering the paper free pics (it sounds like somehting the club have been doing in the past) to get them to give coverage..

on a week to week basis in that league.. cant see them getting much coverage... just an opinion :) cant see them paying 50 quid for every home game can you?

but they might want some every blue moon and i agree should be paid then... just saying everyone seems to be making a big thing and its only farsley with 50 fans :)
 
By the way, don't get the Yorkshire Post and the Yorkshire Evening Post mixed up, they are both part of the Johnstone Press group and do share some reporters etc, etc but thats where it ends, the Yorkshire Post covers the Whole of Yorkshire including the Esast Riding, Hull etc, etc, the Yorkshire Evening Post is primarily a Leeds newspaper and does give a lot more coverage to Leeds local Football, Cricket, Etc, Etc
 
Gary Coyle said:
By the way, don't get the Yorkshire Post and the Yorkshire Evening Post mixed up, they are both part of the Johnstone Press group and do share some reporters etc, etc but thats where it ends, the Yorkshire Post covers the Whole of Yorkshire including the Esast Riding, Hull etc, etc, the Yorkshire Evening Post is primarily a Leeds newspaper and does give a lot more coverage to Leeds local Football, Cricket, Etc, Etc
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haaaaaaaaaaaa I didn't realise that at all.....I was honestly basing my comments on a paper that covers the whole are.. ie yorkshire... hence why i couldnt see farsely with a little following egtting much press with the amount of other teams.... ooops :)
 
KIPAX said:
cant see them getting much coverage... just an opinion :) cant see them paying 50 quid for every home game can you?
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My local free paper used to pay me £30 every single week for a few photos of Sunday League Footy and double that for some Cricket shots, 10 minutes work on a Sunday morning, they still do it but they now have someone else.

You also need to bear in mind the size of the Johnstone Press, ive seen photos of mine in just about every single local weekly paper up most of the North, they get massive value for money out of freelancers, 1 photo can find it's way into dozens of different publications and not forgetting the Yorkshire Sunday Sport newspaper which is jam packed solid with local footy, rugby and cricket.
 
KIPAX said:
haaaaaaaaaaaa I didn't realise that at all.....I was honestly basing my comments on a paper that covers the whole are.. ie yorkshire... hence why i couldnt see farsely with a little following egtting much press with the amount of other teams.... ooops :)
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:LOL: :LOL: Go stand in the corner.
 
Hi Phil, i think you were right to make some contact with them, right to try and get something sorted but i'm still struggling to come to terms that Farsley would make these demands of you when you have offered them your services totally free of charge.

You've been put in a bit of a funny position by them and that shouldn't have happened.
 
No going to add to this thread other than please OP use the spell checker before sending off the email :D
 
Gary Coyle said:
What league are they in now Phil
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Northern Counties East League.

I've just phoned the guy up and he seemed pretty happy for me to photograph and also try and sell any images to the press. i think this freeby thing all came about as a guy who used to photograph Farsley gave the images to the Evening post without charging. He also writes articles for the paper :thinking:

Anyway that league is one below the Unibond Div1, then its Unibond Premier, then the conference.

The guy told me that Farsley are by far the biggest team in this division and they are expecting promotion.
 
alls well that ends well then :) ... said kipax from his corner :)
 
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