Beginner On location full Portrait Photography problem

Grant.Baxter1989

Grant.Baxter1989

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Grant
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Hi,

I have been doing on location full portrait over the past several years, only happens once a year. I have always had a major problem when shooting, the room is very high and has very bad lighting. I also have to shoot large groups which isn't easy either. I normally use a white background ( what i could afford at the time) and then use a studio set of lights which sometimes worked and didn't. Well its that time of the year again when i need to do the shoot,my main problem is after i have taken say a group shot it may sometimes bleed over the backdrop due to so many people in the photo.

Can anyone help? I could really do with some strong advice on this, i was considering just shooting against the red curtain and cutting the photo onto a different background as i have run out of any other options?
I can provide last years photos if anyone wants to see how they came out.

Thanks in advance :)
 
An example photo showing your problem would be very helpful.

It would then be easier to ascertain whether a possible solution should be a photographic one, or a post-processing one.
 
Ok so this photo i had to do a lot of background editing around the sides. As you will see i'm not the best at getting the lighting perfect, but i only had like 15 seconds per image taken. So it was very difficult to get a perfect shot every timeView attachment 44319 . Any recommendations would be good, even if its changing the background.
 
As i said on your other thread studio isn't my forte but as you asked in my inexpert opinion your biggest issue here is the straight on lighting and thus the unflattering shadow ... you'll need someone more expert than me to tell you how to fix that though (someone like @Lindsay D or @asphotographymk others are available) or check out studio lighting tutorials on youtube
 
I'm probably being mind-numbingly stupid, but what is the actual issue you're asking for help with? The lighting, or running out of background with groups, or post-processing to correct problems with the background?
Grant.Baxter1989 said:
Ok so this photo i had to do a lot of background editing around the sides.
Click to expand...
What did you actually edit, what was the original problem? It would be more helpful to show a picture with the problem, not one you've corrected.

I'm a tad confused. More information would be helpful.

So far, from what you've shown me my advice would be:
- Move the subjects away from from the background to avoid, or at least reduce, the shadows on the background. If you do this, you may then have to shoot on a longer focal length in order to keep your subjects within the confines of the background.
- It appears you've positioned two lights either side of your subjects (a tad dull, but I'm guessing the aim is to light a variety of subjects quickly and efficiently, not creatively), move the lights further back towards the camera to avoid ears falling into shadow. While you're at it, move the lights higher to again help reduce the shadows on the background.
- Edit out the creases in the background paper.

I would most definitely advise against shooting on a crap background with the intention of compositing onto a different one. That's a huge amount of skilled work to achieve good results on just one or two images (given the subjects' dresses etc.), let alone a whole bunch of pictures.

My questions are:
- What problems do you wish to fix?
- What are you trying to achieve (more interesting lighting, pure white background, shoot larger groups, less post-production etc.)?
- How much space do you have to shoot in (can you move the subjects away from the background, and move the camera further away from the subjects)?
- Does the location present a suitable background?

Sorry about all the questions, just trying to drill down to the nub of the problem.
 
Are you able, to move the group away for the background, lighting background and subjects separately?
 
I've just reread my diatribe. It didn't come across as very friendly, please accept my unreserved apologies for that.

Oops! I've just spotted the "Beginner" bit in the title as well - sorry......again! :)

Please feel very free to ignore me.

Hopefully I haven't scared the original poster away with my unintentional brusqueness. :(
 
edit post is your friend ;)
 
Ok i will try and get an original at some point, so the answers to your questions @TonyHall are below.

What problems do you wish to fix? - So the backdrop is a paper role which is 2m long, i cant decide if i should shoot with or without the backdrop for quality as these are sold to the students parents.
I havnt really explained the area, so sorry for that. Its a huge performance hall with a wooden flooring and red curtains, i did take photos with this in mind which i have to admit did make the subject stand out better.

- What are you trying to achieve (more interesting lighting, pure white background, shoot larger groups, less post-production etc.)? Its more about making the image the best it can be so yes lighting, better background. I dont know what i can do as its a remote location, im sure there is something i could do even if it was shooting with a low F stop to allow a blur background? And yes i will be shooting large groups aswell.

- How much space do you have to shoot in (can you move the subjects away from the background, and move the camera further away from the subjects)? I have a huge hall to use, i normally only use a small area.
- Does the location present a suitable background? As i said above, a red curtain with a wooden floor is available to use which does look relatively good and would prevent any problems with the size of groups.
 
Tony no worries, i assume your not being sarcastic. I appreciate your opinion and advice so thanks so far.
 
@Daryl is another one who knows a lot about this stuff thinking about it
 
Grant.Baxter1989 said:
Ok i will try and get an original at some point, so the answers to your questions @TonyHall are below.

What problems do you wish to fix? - So the backdrop is a paper role which is 2m long, i cant decide if i should shoot with or without the backdrop for quality as these are sold to the students parents.
I havnt really explained the area, so sorry for that. Its a huge performance hall with a wooden flooring and red curtains, i did take photos with this in mind which i have to admit did make the subject stand out better ..
Click to expand...
Whilst the white background is 'clean' it's a difficult thing to do well though. I don't know what the studio lights you've bought are, but they might be an issue too. But to do this shot right, you need at least 2 lights on the background, get the people further from the background, and to be honest, groups of that size are only easy to light very simply, I'd bank 2 softboxes (brollies would do) above the camera.

But if the hall is large, it'd be fairly easy to create a black background with careful light placement. (What gets no light goes black, the inverse square law is on your side here)

Grant.Baxter1989 said:
...What are you trying to achieve (more interesting lighting, pure white background, shoot larger groups, less post-production etc.)? Its more about making the image the best it can be so yes lighting, better background. I dont know what i can do as its a remote location, im sure there is something i could do even if it was shooting with a low F stop to allow a blur background? And yes i will be shooting large groups aswell.
...
Click to expand...

Getting larger groups will be easier without the small white paper roll, or shoot smaller groups and stitch them.
You can't have both larger groups and more interesting lighting though, not without a huge amount of kit.

Grant.Baxter1989 said:
...How much space do you have to shoot in (can you move the subjects away from the background, and move the camera further away from the subjects)? I have a huge hall to use, i normally only use a small area.
- Does the location present a suitable background? As i said above, a red curtain with a wooden floor is available to use which does look relatively good and would prevent any problems with the size of groups.
Click to expand...

I'd avoid the red curtains, they're unlikely to be as nice a background as you think, as above, if you've plenty of space, let it go black, or stick with the White (needs plenty of lights)
 
Hi Phil,

Thanks for your advise on the above, i will look into what you stated about creating a black background not achieved this before. One issue i have is the white background is only 2m long some groups will have 15-20 students in the one photo which then give the actual background causing problems for me when editing. The studio lights wont be anything expensive which i purchased some years ago and that's only because i don't do this as a career to purchase decent kit. Going back to what you said about creating a black background, is there a particular wording to this? ( so i can do some research on how to achieve it )

I was considering purchasing a green backdrop instead as i know this may be better to allow colors to stand out, allot of the costumes have white in them so again another problem when editing.I also plan this year to shoot with the camera attached to my laptop as i have found what you see on the camera isn't the same on the PC.

If i created a diagram of how it was setup last time would you be able to help tell me what was wrong, or why some photos would be blown apart?

cheers again
 
Grant.Baxter1989 said:
Hi Phil,

Thanks for your advise on the above, i will look into what you stated about creating a black background not achieved this before. One issue i have is the white background is only 2m long some groups will have 15-20 students in the one photo which then give the actual background causing problems for me when editing. The studio lights wont be anything expensive which i purchased some years ago and that's only because i don't do this as a career to purchase decent kit. Going back to what you said about creating a black background, is there a particular wording to this? ( so i can do some research on how to achieve it )

I was considering purchasing a green backdrop instead as i know this may be better to allow colors to stand out, allot of the costumes have white in them so again another problem when editing.I also plan this year to shoot with the camera attached to my laptop as i have found what you see on the camera isn't the same on the PC.

If i created a diagram of how it was setup last time would you be able to help tell me what was wrong, or why some photos would be blown apart?

cheers again
Click to expand...


Creating an evenly lit white background with room for 15-20 subjects is always going to be difficult. I'd try to use a background that doesn't need lighting....
 
boyfalldown said:
Creating an evenly lit white background with room for 15-20 subjects is always going to be difficult. I'd try to use a background that doesn't need lighting....
Click to expand...
I'd photograph them individually showing 'character' then stitch them.

But my stock answer for such a large group would be get them outside. Easier to find a suitable backdrop with lighting attached.
 
Grant.Baxter1989 said:
Tony no worries, i assume your not being sarcastic.
Click to expand...
Nope, I wasn't being sarcastic at all. I was originally trying to narrow down the problems you're having and what you'd like to achieve. In doing so I somehow lost all sense of friendliness and I thought I'd inadvertently come over a bit preachy and up my own backside - not my intention at all - sorry.

You've received some great help from others, which is excellent.

Your lighting is easily fixed by keeping it simple. However, your small white background is a problem. You can either work within its limitations, or change your original plans.

The suggestion of shooting the dancers in singles (or small groups) and then compositing them together in Photoshop, is a good one.
But it would take longer to shoot, and would require some thought on how the individual poses will work together; also this could take a serious amount of time to complete in post-processing (especially if you're not working with an evenly lit, clean and simple background). If you've got the time and Photoshop skills some great results could be achieved (some fun school groups are often shot this way).

If it was me, I'd look into the idea of shooting it all outside and then you'd avoid all these indoor background problems.
Is there a nice park nearby? If you could find a clear grassy area with some distant trees as a backdrop, shoot on a long lens with the sun shining somewhere behind the dancers (to avoid nasty shadows) it would make your life a lot simpler. If it's a really nice park you could have some fun shooting a few shots on a bandstand, or on a playground, or with stone balustrades, steps etc etc. This would be a bit different from the normal shots and a lot more enjoyable. Obviously the big downside could be the inclement British summer weather.

Or the dance school and/or parents may just want the same formal style of shots they've always had.

Howsabout instead of hanging the 2m paper background vertically as is normal, cut some off and hang it horizontally - it can then be as w-i-d-e as you want. (Any 6ft tall dancers would have to bob down a bit tho! :)) The rest of the paper can be rolled out on the floor. Not an ideal solution, but it could work with a little care.

Problems can very often be fixed by a little lateral thinking...or by throwing money at it! :) In my experience, clever solutions to problems can often lead to better results than initially anticipated.
 
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@TonyHall good idea on the background, just checked today and i think it needs replacing ( its 5 years old!) so i will get another roll. It would be great to get out to a park like you said or even outside, unfortunately that's unlikely going to be possible due to the British wet summer we have.In short i would have one day shooting and 2 days to post process, allot of hard work in as little time as possible. I would say thats a little crazy, im starting now to put this into practice so hopefully something will work for me :) looks like i will need to invest in some new lights aswell, mine appear to be broken since checking them. I have a flash gun which i may try see what happens with that.

Cheers for your help much appreciated :)
 
Going outside and using the background as Tony suggests is a great idea. I'm not sure how you're going to light it though. You'll still have the same problems. I'm guessing changing the role won't help either.

My opinion, forget the backdrop, go natural with it and have then pose infront of a natural background
 
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Seriously you appear under equipped for what you want to achieve.

You need a new background roll and at least a couple of lights.

I'd definitely go for outdoors, if I were you.
 
As i said before, going outside wont even be possible. The dancers come to get the photos done then perform after. I wont have time to take them to a near park as its in the middle of a town. I think i can only trial and error and get a new backdrop and lights for this to even work sufficiently.
 
before you spend any money, new lights won't help you & a new backdrop won't much either, unless you know how to achieve what you're after. It doesn't sound like you do
 
Grant.Baxter1989 said:
As i said before, going outside wont even be possible. The dancers come to get the photos done then perform after. I wont have time to take them to a near park as its in the middle of a town. I think i can only trial and error and get a new backdrop and lights for this to even work sufficiently.
Click to expand...

Then forget the backdrop, spend the money on another flashgun, some stands triggers and softboxes, then shoot with the lights banked above the camera and the background left dark.
 
Grant.Baxter1989 said:
Ok so this photo i had to do a lot of background editing around the sides. As you will see i'm not the best at getting the lighting perfect, but i only had like 15 seconds per image taken. So it was very difficult to get a perfect shot every time... Any recommendations would be good, even if its changing the background.
Click to expand...

The parents would look at that and think it's great - but we (photographers) just see the amount of processing you've had to do to make a fairly awful image presentable.
 
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