Beginner Running coach needs advice about a video camera to observe a runners posture

GraemeL

GraemeL

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Graeme
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Hello,

I am a qualified running coach who knows nothing about cameras.

The objective is to take videos of runners, outdoors, so that the runners posture can be later analysed in slow motion and feedback given to the runner. (I can use video editing software to crop the video, run in slow motion etc)

I have tried to do this using an old camera I have that takes videos, but did not get workable results. In order to get a sufficient length of the run in the video (About 30m to 40m), I had to stand so far away that the runner is a miniature object in the subsequent video, too small to effectively observe. For example we need to see the exact moment the foot touches the ground and what the rest of the body is doing at that moment..

My guess is that I need a video camera with a wide angle lens? Is that the right term? That might sound daft but I don't know how else to describe it. How do you measure wide angle and tell if a video camera has it?

We don't need incredibly high quality, but do need to observe in slow motion.

Can anyone suggest a way forward for me please? I really have no clue how to look for a video camera that can do what we want.

Thank you for your help

Graeme
 
Good effort! Thank you. But no, I will be standing still with the camera on a tripod. Not as much fun but there we are!
 
what Simon is suggesting is that a Gopro will actually work for what you trying to do.
Go onto you tube and watch some videos
 
Righto @Diving Pete - I stand to be convinced! Just can't imagine how the camera will be sufficiently stable to take a video while moving on a bike. Its the detail I need. Will try and find some videos on you tube using gopro
 
When you trained to be a qualified running coach did they not cover how to do this.

Can the person of people who trained you not be contacted and asked.
 
fujilover said:
When you trained to be a qualified running coach did they not cover how to do this.

Can the person of people who trained you not be contacted and asked.
Click to expand...

Contrary to belief very very few running coaches ever use video. It is a tool but not the only one. I used to run a bit ... lol
 
Diving Pete said:
Contrary to belief very very few running coaches ever use video. It is a tool but not the only one. I used to run a bit ... lol
Click to expand...

Fair enough. I did try running a few times but found it so hard on the knees. Will stick with walking / cycling
 
@Diving Pete So I have searched on you tube for gopro being used for this sort of analysis. Cannot find anything. Lots of runners attch the camera to themselves, but obviously thats not whats needed. The closest I came was a coaching video where the participant said you need a pal standing still to take a video of your running, much as I am seeking to do.

@fujilover no, coaches are not given recommendations on specific cameras, though part of the training to get a coaching license is to analyse various videos of runners. I have contacted English Athletics on this subject but they were of little help was of no help, the answer was too vague, not much more than suggesting the camera must record more than xxx frames per second to allow for adequate slow motion playback.

What I had imagined would be quite an easy question for camera experts is not as easy as I had thought. I had naively expected andwers like - you need a camera with an xyz wide angle lens, or have a look at the Sonix range, or something similar.

Here is a link to a camera on Amazon that says its wide angle, but I guess there are many types of wide angle?

Is that a possibility? How can I tell?

Thanks
Graeme
 
High-end smartphone on a gimbal?
 
You need 120fps if not higher, actually the latest gopro has such good stabilisation that cycling alongside would produce usable footage you could grab stills from or slow down massively.
Generally to get the very high frame rates you need to record at lower res like 1080p or even 720p unless you are spending rather a lot.
 
A go pro would be worth experimenting with because its versatile. You could film from the back of a bike with the runner directly behind you, or you could reconfigure it so its shooting sideways, so you can record the runners action side on (I don't know if that is useful). Yes, you need to be able to match the bikes speed to the runner, but with practice that should be comparatively easy. Do electric bikes have cruise control?

Quite a lot of the cheap Go-pro clones will shoot 1080p footage at 60 frames per second, but the later GoPros will shoot at 240 frames per second.

They're also small, light, rugged and weatherproof.

I guess camera experts look at a problem from a different angle, which is why the answers haven't really gone down the camcorder on a tripod path.
 
@andrewc Thank you. Not just for your input but alos becuase your answer has directed me to say a little more about the video footage I need and might explain more about why some of the help I have been given seems to infer I need to be moving.

The majority of the filming and analysis is taken from the side of the runner, So the profile is observed in detail. Imagine a camers set up on a tripod in a static position, the runner would enter the field of view from (say) the left and then leave on the right. While in view the runner would cover about 30m to 40m, hence my thinking that I need a wide angle lens to both show that length of run and also a large enough picture.
 
Unfortunately a wide angle lens will not do what you want.
When you used the equipment that you have you had to stand a certain distance away to get the whole length of the track in, this meant that the runner was quite small, let's assume s/he was 10mm high on the screen/viewfinder.
If you get a wide angle lens you will be able to go closer to the track to still get the whole length of the track in but you will still have the same scene, i.e. the track will again fill the length of the screen/viewfinder and the runner will still appear 10mm high.
One solution would be to take several videos from different positions over several runs. You could get close to the runner and take a video of 10m of track when they start and on the next run take a video of a central 10m section of track etc.
 
Shoot from a suitable distance with a telephoto so the runners' profiles are similar throughout the shot. You'll need to "pan" to follow the runners.
 
Hi Graeme, a gopro on push bike is a good option, with a wide angle the runner will be too small. Another option would be a long lens from a distance following the runner. The field of filmmaking is just as complex as the field of running coaching.
 
I've had my gait (think that's the right term) analysed in the past but on a treadmill. Would a treadmill and a camera sat on a tripod work for you? Probably the cheapest and easiest solution.

James
 
vtrjames said:
I've had my gait (think that's the right term) analysed in the past but on a treadmill. Would a treadmill and a camera sat on a tripod work for you? Probably the cheapest and easiest solution.

James
Click to expand...

The reality is that is the best way to get footage.

1. Its repeatable.
2. Not affected by weather.
3. Can be done any time.
4. one size fits all.
5. Cheaply done.

I'd also go with the 240fps @ 1080p requirement.

As a running coach what part of gait are you trying to adjust / fix.
Are you looking at sprinters or distance runners or multiple types?

Otherwise bicycle and go pro may work.
 
Diving Pete said:
As a running coach what part of gait are you trying to adjust / fix.
Are you looking at sprinters or distance runners or multiple types?

Otherwise bicycle and go pro may work.
Click to expand...

Thanks Pete,
Our runners are all endurance runners (1500m to ultra ). I can't say what part of the gait we want to adjust until we can observe in some detail. My suspicion is that a slow motion video will reveal a lot of overstriders and need for triple extension development. It's important to us that not only do the coaches see the 'fault' and how it can be improved, but also that we can show the runner the issue on video.
 
vtrjames said:
I've had my gait (think that's the right term) analysed in the past but on a treadmill. Would a treadmill and a camera sat on a tripod work for you? Probably the cheapest and easiest solution.

James
Click to expand...

Thanks James.
Thanks for the suggestion, but no. Treadmill running is very different to road running,
 
How do you measure stride length at present? For ultra distance you can't really do it until they have been running for at least 5-10mins.
You could possibly get them to pass a set area which is setup for this... & at 240 fps you should get at least a few frames each lap..
Do you have access to a track?
 
Stride length is easily measured, in fact we dont need to measure it. All running watches record cadence so its simple maths using that together with time and distance ran to calculate stride length. However, thats not relevant to my search for a video camera. You might be getting into deep water @Diving Pete by perhaps thinking that overstride is something to do with stride length? It's not, overstride happens when the front foot strike is ahead of the hips. Its quite dfficult to see with the naked eye as it happens very quickly, hence need for slow motion video, not just for our coaches but also so the runner can see it.
 
Ok, I've thought about this some more.

Assuming you have access to a running track, the not at all daft answer...

...a bicycle and a Gopro.
 
Thanks @simon ess ! In fact we dont have running track access, we can do better as we have an airfield runway. Much easier for me to stay upright!
 
Now I will need to go on a Cycling forum to get a recommendation for a bike.......... ;)
 
Insta360 and have them run with it. Kofuzi on YouTube uses that set up quite often and he has a lot of great footage of his runs.
 
@FruitFlakes thank you for you suggestion. But thats not what I need. The best example I can think of, though not perfect, is the camera footage you get when there is a photo finish at the end of a horse race. Thats much more detailed than I need, but the camera is pointed in one direction and the running object passes through the field of view.

The idea of me cycling along trying to hold a camera pointed at a runner and holding it still while staying upright might be a solution, but I am not at all covinced. I have seen rowing coaches do this, but they dont need to detail running coaches do.
 
You attach the Gopro to the bike or your head. You don't hold it.

Surely you can borrow a bike. Any old bike will do.

(Sudden flash back to drunken Friday nights)
 
I am trying to imagine. I cycle along and keep the runner in the centre view of camera while not seeing the view from the camera? Is that possible? Am I missing something or have the totally wrong concept?
Really I do appreciate your help but I dont quite get it.
 
The Gopro has a selection of views including wide angle. Keeping your subject in frame will not be a problem.
 
GraemeL said:
@FruitFlakes thank you for you suggestion. But thats not what I need. The best example I can think of, though not perfect, is the camera footage you get when there is a photo finish at the end of a horse race. Thats much more detailed than I need, but the camera is pointed in one direction and the running object passes through the field of view.

The idea of me cycling along trying to hold a camera pointed at a runner and holding it still while staying upright might be a solution, but I am not at all covinced. I have seen rowing coaches do this, but they dont need to detail running coaches do.
Click to expand...

Yeah a GoPro mounted to the top tube will be your best bet then. Or perhaps a Sony RX100 if you want a tighter field of view, you can mount it to a gimbal to get the most stable footage. The fact remains that you need to be tracking the runners and a bike would be the easiest and cheapest solution.
 
GraemeL said:
I am trying to imagine. I cycle along and keep the runner in the centre view of camera while not seeing the view from the camera? Is that possible? Am I missing something or have the totally wrong concept?
Really I do appreciate your help but I dont quite get it.
Click to expand...

You ride along at an appropriate pace, camera is recording. Runner just follows, fairly close behind.

You'll need to practise pedalling at the right pace, but I'm sure just riding alongside runners will give you an idea of the speed required.
 
So I run a bit.....also, I once had a coach analyse my gait (pose technique trainer). It was remarkably low tech. He had me run for 100m or so, he was at the 90ish metre mark with a iPad and panned slightly. We did this a few times. Sorted.

It had the advantage that he could give me instant feedback and I could see the changes he was proposing - no fiddling with uploading to laptop from a card etc. Also, plenty of apps on a tablet that let you slow down, mark angles etc.

IMO camera on a bike wont work - ridiculously hard to keep to the exact pace of a runner and any bounce will throw measurements off. Wide angle won't work - will distort at ends and only the middle bit will be usable. Treadmill will kind of work but as you'll know, gait on a treadmill is different from gait when travelling. Though I've had a biomech expert do gait analysis from the side on a treadmill and it was useful for what he needed.

You only really want 3 - 4 footfalls whilst running with normal gait. If you're looking for other stuff you can set up test cases (run 5 - 10 miles first to check gait when fatigued etc) but mostly, you're over thinking this.
 
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