Spots on edge of negatives

[Thmaga]

So I noticed these spots on the last set of negatives, thought maybe it was a development issue, same marks again on this set from today, doesn't appear to show anywhere else.

Can see them on the negs itself, so not a scanning issue.

GW690 so its 120 roll film, HP5 devd in Patterson tank with HC110

Any ideas or suggestions?

 

[sirch]

Water spots or something caused by the spiral?

 

[FishyFish]

I get these sometimes too. Not sure of the cause, but I presume something during development. I usually just remove them in Photoshop with the content-aware fill tool (although it would be good to understand the cause in order to prevent it happening in the first place). The last time was with a GW690 roll too, although I think I’ve had the same issue with other rolls shot with different cameras on occasion too.

 

[joxby]

I think they are bubbles that form and accumulate at the surface of the developer.
It is more likely to be an issue if you're a bit tight with chems or the tank itself being tight.
You could also consider slippage of the spiral, rising and holding the edge of the film closer to the surface where bubbles live..

 

[Thmaga]

I get these sometimes too. Not sure of the cause, but I presume something during development. I usually just remove them in Photoshop with the content-aware fill tool (although it would be good to understand the cause in order to prevent it happening in the first place). The last time was with a GW690 roll too, although I think I’ve had the same issue with other rolls shot with different cameras on occasion too.

At least it's not just me!

I have another spiral here which I use for 35mm, maybe I'll switch them next time.

Water spots or something caused by the spiral?

It's a lighter mark on the negative rather than a water mark, but maybe it could be to do with the spiral given it's so close to the film edge.

 

[Thmaga]

I think they are bubbles that form and accumulate at the surface of the developer.
It is more likely to be an issue if you're a bit tight with chems or the tank itself being tight.
You could also consider slippage of the spiral, rising and holding the edge of the film closer to the surface where bubbles live..

Maybe I'll make up slightly more chems next time, that does make sense as a theory.

 

[Peter B]

So I noticed these spots on the last set of negatives, thought maybe it was a development issue, same marks again on this set from today, doesn't appear to show anywhere else.

Can see them on the negs itself, so not a scanning issue.

GW690 so its 120 roll film, HP5 devd in Patterson tank with HC110

Any ideas or suggestions?

Interesting that it's HP5+ as I've had marks like these as well, but with OOD rolls. I've tried increasing the amount of chemical, but still got them and haven't found a reason as it's the same tank and same spiral.

 

[sirch]

I've not seem them on HP5 120 myself, plenty of other problems but not these. They do seem to be fairly regularly spaced so possibly something related to feeding into the spiral, would it be possible to measure the distance between them and compare to how much is fed into the spiral at a time?

 

[john.margetts]

I think it is air bubbles in the developer. Perhaps a sharper rap is required after agitating.

 

[Thmaga]

I think it is air bubbles in the developer. Perhaps a sharper rap is required after agitating.

I'm pretty consistent with the tapping after agitation, but I suppose I could be firmer - don't want to break the tank!

 

[FishyFish]

Here's an example of mine from a recent roll (Fomapan 400 / GW690).



Like Sean, I'm pretty consistent with tapping the tank to dislodge air bubbles - usually four or five sharp raps of the bottom of the tank on the work-surface. I also use 600ml of develoiper when processing 120 film as the AP reel I use is a little looser on the spindle than the Paterson reels and so might possibly sit higher in the solution.

While I've not checked for other rolls where it's happened, on this roll the issue is only on some frames - the ones nearer the start of the roll. There are no signs of the artefacts at all on the final three frams, all of which have similar bright sky detail as in the example above.

 

[Thmaga]

I

Here's an example of mine from a recent roll (Fomapan 400 / GW690).

View attachment 304965

Like Sean, I'm pretty consistent with tapping the tank to dislodge air bubbles - usually four or five sharp raps of the bottom of the tank on the work-surface. I also use 600ml of develoiper when processing 120 film as the AP reel I use is a little looser on the spindle than the Paterson reels and so might possibly sit higher in the solution.

While I've not checked for other rolls where it's happened, on this roll the issue is only on some frames - the ones nearer the start of the roll. There are no signs of the artefacts at all on the final three frams, all of which have similar bright sky detail as in the example above.

I'll check mine, I did see a frame with no marks on after I posted this.

Maybe the bubbles are around the edge of the tank, and the frames at the center of the spiral are spared?

I use 500ml of developer.

 

[FishyFish]

I

I'll check mine, I did see a frame with no marks on after I posted this.

Maybe the bubbles are around the edge of the tank, and the frames at the center of the spiral are spared?

I use 500ml of developer.

The first frames will be closer to the centre of the spiral, so bubbles at the edge of the tank are probably not the cause. The logic is sound though - it could be that the inner part of the spiral where the film is more tightly wound might be more susceptible to bubbles becoming trapped.

 

[Peter B]

Having had a chance to look at this in more detail, I've found the same spots on fresh (2022) HP5+ as shown below. These were taken with my Rolleicord, but I've had similar spots on the Yashicamat with the ood film. The frame below was the second one on the roll and would therefore be to the outside of the spiral, as I wind on from the loose end of the film and the tape end is the last frame onto the spiral. I'm now wondering whether the tape is causing the problem, as I usually just fold it back over the film end if it doesn't tear off. I'll certainly be removing it from now on.

 

[FishyFish]

I've found a couple of other posts reporting similar problems. May be helpful.

Here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/yet-another-developing-issues-dark-spots.125164/

and here: https://www.flickr.com/groups/84061069@N00/discuss/72157631654162733/

I'm thinking (in my case at least) that it may be caused by bubbles trapped in the top of the reel that hasn't been dislogdged by tapping. Next time I dev a roll I'll have a look at the reel to see if there's anything that looks like it may make it easier for air bubbles to become trapped.

 

[mikestr]

I think you're all looking in the wrong area. No marks with well-defined borders can result from processing errors; air bells cannot cling long enough to make such clear density "shadows." Neither can occasional touching of the film to the reel--the development is taking place within the gelatin, where the developer is well-diffused, and developer surge patterns are buffered (anyone familiar with true uniformity issues knows that the patterns are brown, with gradually decreasing density).. Pay more attention to the journey of the roll of film from its sealed package to that developing tank. Think about moisture, condensation. How long was the film outside its sealed packet, sitting in your camera, or in your camera bag BEFORE it was processed? There is a reason these problems show up so often on 120 film, rarely on 35mm, and never on sheet film. 120 film is simply wrapped in paper, a moisture trap. It's actually a terrible system, a legacy from the Edwardian era. When Kodak began lacquering their backing paper a few years ago the incidence of this problem (along with the printing from the paper showing up in image areas) went way down. But it still occurs, and not just on Kodak films. So don't throw out your camera, or your developing reels, and start reviewing your film's history. See if these blotches occur more in the outer winds of film (on the spool not the developing tank). Perhaps pay a lab to run some rolls through a dip-and-dunk machine to see if that very even processing resolved the matter. If not, see if it possible that your problem is moisture on unprocessed film.

 

[Asha]

Welcome to TP!