Stages of film developing question

bomberman

bomberman

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I intend to develop my own black and white film, i've done some research on the various stages and what's needed - got my developing tank and film changing bag and am looking at which chemicals i'm going to use but one thing is confusing me.

I've decided to use water as a stop-bath and then Ilford fixer, but do you need to use another chemical after that to remove the fixer? or can you just use water? I've seen some videos on youtube that use fix-remover or "permawash", is this necessary?
 
There are a few products you can use in the final wash, Ilfords photoflow is always recommended to me, its supposed to cut down your wash time and the quantity of water you use, also its supposed to reduce water marks and streaks like a whetting agent.
Never use anything personally, just a water pressure wash.

:)
 
bomberman said:
I intend to develop my own black and white film, i've done some research on the various stages and what's needed - got my developing tank and film changing bag and am looking at which chemicals i'm going to use but one thing is confusing me.

I've decided to use water as a stop-bath and then Ilford fixer, but do you need to use another chemical after that to remove the fixer? or can you just use water? I've seen some videos on youtube that use fix-remover or "permawash", is this necessary?
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After the film's fixed, all you have to do is rinse it thoroughly. Either by usung running water for 5-10 minutes if your not on a metered supply, and have a stable 20'c system, or by the multiple refill method (fill tank with tempering water, invert 5 times, throw out, refill with tempering water invert 10 times, throw out, refill with tempering water, invert 20 times and throw out. Last fill with tempering water and a single drop of ecover (other washing up liquids are available - ecover was under the sink!) dabble the film spool in this, remove and hang the film up to dry. Slice of Gateaux.
 
How good a substitute is a drop of washing up liquid?
Should I just man up and buy photoflo?
 
Well - I've never had any problems with drying marks on the film using washing up liquid, though that could also be partly because we have a fairly soft water supply here.
 
fixedimage, ilford ilfotol might be worth a look it's about £10 for a litre whereas kodak photoflo is the same price for half that amount. I'm not sure whether they are both as good as i've never used them but my eye is leaning towards ilfotol. I've heard washing up liquid makes bubbles which is not really what you want.

TheBigYin thanks that's the info i was after. The reason i thought a chemical fix-remover might be needed was that the guy in the video below uses it. We do have a water meter so i wouldn't be allowed to leave the tap running for 5 minutes!

so if i have this right the sequence is:

Pre-wash --> Developer --> Stop bath --> Fixer --> Wash --> Photoflo--> Dry (all at 20 degrees C)

(water)............(chemical)..........(water).......(chemical)....(water)......(chem)


The Youtube video where i saw fix-remover being used is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnAjjSN2QZQ&feature=related


EDIT: actually, watching this video again (the video is in 2 parts and the final rinse is at the beginning of part 2) The guy gives his film a serious rinsing - one minute in flowing water followed by 1.5 minutes with the fix-remover chemical followed by 10 minutes back in flowing water. Is this excessive? He says at one point that without the fix-remover he would have to rinse his film for an hour!:eek:

EDIT EDIT: sorry BigYin it took me ages to write my post so didn't see yours there. How much washing up liquid do you use?
 
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if we're talking black and white, unless the temperature in my utility room is really low/high I don't bother with a pre-wash. More than anything, the pre-wash is just to get the film, the tank and the spiral up to the 20'c that the chemicals are when you develop the film.

If ambient room temperature is between 18-22'c (as it usually is in a centrally heated home), then the tank temperature shouldn't effect the chemicals when you pour them in. If however, you store the dev tank in your garage in -15'c winters, and bring it in 5 minutes before you're going to load the film then it would have an effect, and I'd pre-wash.

I think that the amount of rinsing is pretty much down to the fix you use, the regime I mentioned is the one that Ilford recommend if you can't use a pressure wash rinse a-la-Joxby. I do occasionally give additional rinses at the 20 inversion stage, if the water that I pour out is still coloured - Kodak film seems to be worst for this - I've had it running pink after 6-7 changes of water. Fortunately for me, I prefer Fuji Acros 100 and Ilford Delta stock so it's not a biggie for me :)

As to how much washing up liquid - I scoop up 700ml of water from the tempering bath and add a single drop of ecover. After all the inversion rinses, I remove the patterson tank lid, and the funnel/light trap. This leaves the spools of film in the bottom of the tank. I pour the final rinse over them, and agitate for 10 seconds or so with the "swizzel stick" that comes with the tank, then allow to stand for about a minute. I then remove the film from the spiral and hang them to dry.
 
You're getting lots of good advice here, but it's a bit like gardening, everyone has their own 'tweaks'.


  • I don't pre-wash,
  • I use Stop bath
  • I wash using a combination of running water (wash hose) and inversion / water changes
  • I do a final soak in water with a drop of washing up liquid added
  • Squeegee
  • Hang up to dry.

That's was my workflow, but its ultimately what works for you.
 
I used to wash all my film for at least half an hour using a force washer( just a hose down the centre of the spiral). When processing and washing many films at once using stainless steel spirals in a 5 gallon tank, I would empty the tank at least once during washing.

Washing up liquid can cause reticulation and leave chemicals on the film... over time this will attack the image.
 
I always recommend first-time developers use Ilford or Kodak products and follow their development procedures they have online. Then when you are comfortable with the process, you can branch out trying other films and developers.

Here is Ilford's Processing Your First B&W Film data sheet. Has everything you need to know from the experts of their products.
 
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I always recommend first-time developers use Ilford or Kodak products and follow their development procedures they have online. Then when you are comfortable with the process, you can branch out trying other films and developers.
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Hmmm ...really? Because i was thinking of using Rodinal (R09) developer. I've read it lasts forever and works with most films. I was also looking at Champion stop and either Champion or Ilford fixer. And either ilfotol or Kodak photo flo.

Film wise i'm looking at using either T-max or Fuji Neopan
 
bomberman said:
Because i was thinking of using Rodinal (R09) developer. I've read it lasts forever
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No, not forever. I wouldn't go past 5 years. And it is base on common wisdom of people's experience because the instructions that came with my bottle of Rodinal says only 6 months after opening. PMK Pyro, on the other hand, advertises 10 year shelf life for a working solution if you're looking for a really long one.
 
I use hypo clearing agent after the fix just to make 100% sure that I can reuse the negs in 20 years time.
Just please don't use washing up liquid as wetting agent, it contains loads of other stuff that you don't really want coating the negatives.
Wetting agent is around £4.50 and lasts you for ever, false economy using something else. Stop bath the same, costs nearly nothing and lasts a very very long time, although water is OK it won't stop development dead.
 
bomberman said:
Hmmm ...really? Because i was thinking of using Rodinal (R09) developer. I've read it lasts forever and works with most films. I was also looking at Champion stop and either Champion or Ilford fixer. And either ilfotol or Kodak photo flo.

Film wise i'm looking at using either T-max or Fuji Neopan
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AlanSmithee said:
No, not forever. I wouldn't go past 5 years. And it is base on common wisdom of people's experience because the instructions that came with my bottle of Rodinal says only 6 months after opening. PMK Pyro, on the other hand, advertises 10 year shelf life for a working solution if you're looking for a really long one.
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I've heard stories of people running out of dev, finding an old bottle of Rodinal at the back of the cupboard with nothing liquid inside, just a crust of dried up chemicals, filling the bottle with water and successfully devving a film in it.

I've also heard that Rodinal lost it's legendary shelf life when it stopped being Rodinal and started being R09. Allegedly, while the remanufactured version is made to the same recipe and works and behaves very similarly to the original there a few things it does very differently. The differences are supposedly only noticeable if you have done a lot of work with both versions.

I have only ever used the newer version, branded R09 OneShot. I was trying to use it very diluted to stand develop in and I never really got satisfactory or consistent results so I'v now started using Xtol.
 
The water in London seemes pretty hard and I've suffered from drying marks even using washing up liquid (instead of photoflo). I now use a drop of washing up liquid in distilled water for my last wash and ever since my negs have been sparkingly clean :)
 
bomberman said:
Hmmm ...really? Because i was thinking of using Rodinal (R09) developer. I've read it lasts forever and works with most films. I was also looking at Champion stop and either Champion or Ilford fixer. And either ilfotol or Kodak photo flo.
Click to expand...

Well I reckon I'm the only one in the world using Champion Promicrol..dunno what's wrong with it as it seems cheap and economical, anyway I just use it for what's left of my 25 year old bulk FP4, for testing cameras etc. And while I was in the shop near London bridge bought some cheap Czech fixer to go with it.
And for the oldies....Remember once upon a time you had to mix hardener with the fixer :LOL:
 
Edtog said:
I use hypo clearing agent after the fix just to make 100% sure that I can reuse the negs in 20 years time.
Just please don't use washing up liquid as wetting agent, it contains loads of other stuff that you don't really want coating the negatives.
Wetting agent is around £4.50 and lasts you for ever, false economy using something else. Stop bath the same, costs nearly nothing and lasts a very very long time, although water is OK it won't stop development dead.
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Which is quite a good method for increasing the density in the midtones and shadows as the developer is less exhausted in those areas and will slowly continue working..

Don't use washing up liquid, that is something which is usually only done by Scots men and Yorkshire men.
 
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It seems everyone has different experiences with different combinations of stuff. I can see the sense in sticking with the same chemicals and film for a while as it's bound to help with the learning curve. Got my AP developing tank through the post today and getting quite excited. I've had the day off today and spent literally all day reading threads, pdfs and browsing Dev charts, FilmDev and flickr but still not sure which chemicals to go with. It seems for every piece of contradictory advice you can find a consistent one, like Rodinal RO9 giving more pronounced grain than Studional (aka rodinal special). So i think Rodinal is top of my list at the moment.

What i don't understand is why people do stand development? is it for push-processing where long dev times are needed or is it for economy purposes? And what sort of effect does it have on processing?

so many questions :LOL:
 
bomberman said:
It seems everyone has different experiences with different combinations of stuff. I can see the sense in sticking with the same chemicals and film for a while as it's bound to help with the learning curve.
so many questions :LOL:
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That's why I say follow the process from Ilford or Kodak. You'll get good results the first time! That Ilford link I posted has a step-by-step procedure.
 
EdBray said:
Don't use washing up liquid, that is something which is usually only done by Scots men and Yorkshire men.
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That is very funny :LOL:

Alistair
 
I thought it was the southerners that used washing up liquid. Hence the term "southern fairy" ;)

I'm still getting a good feeling about Rodinal. Seems to last ages and no mixing powders involved which i don't fancy. And with articles like this...

http://www.feelingnegative.com/darkroom/rodinal-the-magic-elixir

.... i'm actually getting quite excited. Plenty of recipes in FilmDev and The Massive Dev Chart too. Will probably eat my words after a few rolls though Alan :LOL:
 
bomberman said:
What i don't understand is why people do stand development? is it for push-processing where long dev times are needed or is it for economy purposes? And what sort of effect does it have on processing?
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Increase in acutance and apparent sharpness, reduction of appearance of grain, compensation effect, there's countless other reasons I imagine but they were the ones that attracted me.
 
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