Subject Isolation

lukewoodford

FYI, I am Luke Woodford.....by Luke Woodford
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Luke Woodford
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Ok this is something that I have been thinking about over the last week or so.

If im doing a portrait, and I take two shots. Both with a 50mm at f/2.8 and with a 200mm at f/2.8 and I frame them exactly the same so they look identical in the viewfinder (obviously ill be standing my further back with the 200mm) will the longer lens create more subject isolation? Be seperated from the background more?
 
Ok this is something that I have been thinking about over the last week or so.

If im doing a portrait, and I take two shots. Both with a 50mm at f/2.8 and with a 200mm at f/2.8 and I frame them exactly the same so they look identical in the viewfinder (obviously ill be standing my further back with the 200mm) will the longer lens create more subject isolation? Be seperated from the background more?

maybe this example will help :)
50 @2.8
3502119248_eb3dd4311b_o.jpg

200mm@2.8
3502123112_cf59528715_o.jpg


for me 200 looks better :)
 
Should've been done with more care, but here's

1. 50mm @ f/3.5
50mmf35b.jpg


2. 200mm @ f/3.5
200mmf35b.jpg


Both primes, f/3.5 is the max aperture for the 200mm.
 
i don't suppose this has anything to do with the street portrait comp,does it luke...;)

actually it does, I think Shutterman made a comment about something that got me thinking and I do want to isolate my subjects more sometimes but then you lose the reactions and intimancy with longer lenses.
 
actually it does, I think Shutterman made a comment about something that got me thinking and I do want to isolate my subjects more sometimes but then you lose the reactions and intimancy with longer lenses.

you mean if you use a longer lens you don't get a smack in the mouth? :naughty:
 
Subject isolation is a combination of aperture, focal length and distance to subject. It's easy to isolate with something like a 50mm, or even a 35mm if you're close enough and the lens is opened up enough.

You see few street shooters with 300 or 400mm lenses and for good reason.
 
Ok this is something that I have been thinking about over the last week or so.

If im doing a portrait, and I take two shots. Both with a 50mm at f/2.8 and with a 200mm at f/2.8 and I frame them exactly the same so they look identical in the viewfinder (obviously ill be standing my further back with the 200mm) will the longer lens create more subject isolation? Be seperated from the background more?

Depth of field remains the same, so 'no' on that score. But the field of view will be subsantially narrowed by the 200mm lens making the background less cluttered, so 'yes' on that score.

Red berret shot is a good example of the latter :)
 
Depth of field remains the same, so 'no' on that score.

So, kindly explain the evidence of your own eyes for my eggbox snaps.

Subject to background distance is the same for both.

The DOF is the same for different lenses at the same aperture when the camera to subject distance allows the subject to fill the frame to the same extent, but the hyperfocal distance is roughly proportional to the square of the focal length of the lens in question so will be much further away for the longer lens, increasing the out of focus region when compared with the shorter lens.
 
So, kindly explain the evidence of your own eyes for my eggbox snaps.

Subject to background distance is the same for both.

The DOF is the same for different lenses at the same aperture when the camera to subject distance allows the subject to fill the frame to the same extent, but the hyperfocal distance is roughly proportional to the square of the focal length of the lens in question so will be much further away for the longer lens, increasing the out of focus region when compared with the shorter lens.

Where's the disagreement? What my eyes are telling me is that the field of view with the 200mm lens is a lot narrower than the 50mm shot. There is far less background visible. And therefore, because there is less stuff cluttering up the field of view behind the egg boxes at 200mm, the appearance is of greater subject isolation. But it's a field of view effect related to viewpoint, not a depth of field effect related to focal length (haven't you said the same thing?).
 
actually it does, I think Shutterman made a comment about something that got me thinking and I do want to isolate my subjects more sometimes but then you lose the reactions and intimancy with longer lenses.

Luke it was either myself or Natjag that made that comment, can remember which but I think we were both driving at the same point.

Glad it got you thinking...

I was throwing my toys out the pram because I do not like using short lenses, I do quite often, but sometimes I just want the subject to be there with no distractions from the surrounding environment.

Nigel
 
Luke it was either myself or Natjag that made that comment, can remember which but I think we were both driving at the same point.

Glad it got you thinking...

I was throwing my toys out the pram because I do not like using short lenses, I do quite often, but sometimes I just want the subject to be there with no distractions from the surrounding environment.

Nigel

Im glad you mentioned it because there are times when I want the subject more isolated.
 
But it's a field of view effect related to viewpoint, not a depth of field effect related to focal length (haven't you said the same thing?).

No, it's both field of view and the background being more out of focus with the longer lens.

We can fairly easily choose a suitable background, but need the longer lens to throw it out of focus to a greater degree. I believe more photographers are concerned with creatively using a soft focus background to hint at the environment, rather than using as plain a background as possible.

In the eggbox example, the lawn area is uncluttered, yet the advantage of throwing it more out of focus is visible.

The depth of field is only relevant to the subject in focus, with the scene in front and behind being thrown out of focus more rapidly by the longer lens.
 
No, it's both field of view and the background being more out of focus with the longer lens.

We can fairly easily choose a suitable background, but need the longer lens to throw it out of focus to a greater degree. I believe more photographers are concerned with creatively using a soft focus background to hint at the environment, rather than using as plain a background as possible.

In the eggbox example, the lawn area is uncluttered, yet the advantage of throwing it more out of focus is visible.

The depth of field is only relevant to the subject in focus, with the scene in front and behind being thrown out of focus more rapidly by the longer lens.

Sorry to disagree but that's not what I'm seeing. The background is not more out of focus with the longer lens, as any depth of field calculator will prove.

The increased 'isolation' with the longer lens shot is down to the narrower field of view and the less cluttered background, as depth of field remains the same in the two pictures, f/number for f/number. To think of that slightly differently again, it's a perspective effect due to the increased subject distance (hyperfocal distance has no bearing).

But whatever, if you take a picture with a 50mm lens, then move back and reframe the main subject identically with a 200mm lens (as you have done with the egg box) then at a given f/number the depth of field will be the same.

It's easy enough to prove for yourself, by setting up two pictures as you have done, noting the focal length, f/number and focus distance settings, and reading off the depth of field from an on-line calculator such as: http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

If you want to have a go at that, make sure you are comparing apples with apples (and not eggs LOL). That is, exact focal lengths are often not what is marked on the lens barrel, and you need to measure actual focusing distances from the front of the lens (not the focal plane, which is what focusing scales read) as that's how most DoF calculators work, and different lenses are obviously different physical lengths. So it makes exact comparisons quite difficult but you'll get close enough to see that what you're saying is not true. Focal length makes no difference to depth of field in this case, and so it must be a field of view effect - an illusion, if you like.

All of which must be taken in the context of depth of field being an approximation by nature, and apparent sharpness, or lack of sharpness, is a subjective thing and a pretty vague one at that. However, it is important to know that you do not automatically get less depth of field with a longer focal length lens, or more depth of field with a shorter lens. There are other factors at play.

NB The bit about hyperfocal distance is a red herring. If you increase the circle of confusion in this equation to replicate how more distant subjects becoming increasingly out of focus, the relationship between the two lenses remains the same (as you would expect).
 
Collapse of stout party! :thumbs:

What looked to me as more out of focus was due to the background occupying more of the frame for the longer lens.

Below, I've taken the out of focus flower heads that are centred above the box in the first and right of centre in the second photo and reduced the portion from the second (also adding 1/3rd stop exposure compensation, to more closely match the first). If anything, the crop from the second looks slightly sharper, no doubt a benefit of the downsizing, but the background from the longer lens is no less sharp, just magnified.

backgroundcompare.jpg
 
Thanks for your PM Jon. Nice try :)

I think I know what you're trying to do here, but as you've discovered, it's difficult because a lot of things change when you swap lenses, and even more things change when you swap both lenses and focusing distances. Trying to get a simple A/B comparison is tricky.

I guess you could do it with an elaborate set up of flag poles in your garden at different distances but I'm not sure what that would actually prove.

The bottom line is that the OP wanted more isolation of the main subject, and you tend to get that with a longer lens because the field of view you get with a more distant viewpoint is narrower, therefore there is less background behind the subject, therefore it looks less cluttered and confused, therefore it is less distracting, and therefore (phew!) the main subject appears more isolated.

So, longer lenses tend to make the subject stand out more, but that is a field of view effect, not a depth of field effect. I just think it's important to know that, especially as it is commonly touted that it is indeed a depth of field effect.
 
Some more examples . . .

1361-17mm.jpg


1362-35mm.jpg


1364-50mm.jpg


1368-85mm.jpg


1372-200mm.jpg


1374-300mm.jpg


Setup, with background wall eight paces behind subject. Camera to subject distance was six paces maximum, with 300mm lens.

setup1.jpg


And here's the view with 11mm at f/2.8, though I couldn't focus close enough to get the subject to fill the frame sufficiently. BTW, the eggbox is about the size of an adult's eyes-to-mouth area.

1357-11mm.jpg


The narrower field of view with a longer focal length reduces clutter but there's also a reduction of any granularity, due to enlargement of background detail.
 
That's cheating! You've swappped the egg box :D But seriously mate, that is a very good test. Thank you for taking the trouble to do that. I've bookmarked it :)

It also shows how difficult it is to do these things, as the last two images are softened a bit by the sun moving round. I also wonder about f/numbers being exactly accurate when swapping lenses like this - I've found some cheaper lenses to be as much as half a stop out at small f/numbers, and a quarter stop is quite common. And what was the f/number? All f/2.8 like the 11mm shot?

Nice garden ;)

Thanks again.
 
All at f/2.8, using Tokina 11-16mm, Tamron 17-50mm, Tamron 28-105mm, Tamron Adaptall-2 70-200mm and Tamron Adaptall-2 300mm and yes, there is variance in the max apertures, not that I've tabulated it.

Yeah, should've done it at noon or on a nice overcast day - like today!

I should've gone somewhere like an industrial estate with smoother ground, too, to make the necessary small adjustments easier, but the geared tripod head was an asset.
 
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