The virus. PPE. Part 1

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From Richard Horton, editor of The Lancet:
View: https://BANNED/richardhorton1/status/1237282270685380613
 
Retune said:
From Richard Horton, editor of The Lancet:
View: https://BANNED/richardhorton1/status/1237282270685380613
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Closure policies is a very difficult call!

We close the schools as we know they are breeding grounds but unfortunately this would then mean lots of our public sector workers would not be able to come to work because of child care issues so it would really hit the staffing of these vital services.
 
DK602 said:
Except the Lancet has a left wing Political bias!
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I have to wonder if the science is different in the EU and many other countries who are implementing social distancing and closure policies.
 
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jakeblu said:
I have to wonder if the science is different in the EU and many other countries who are implementing social distancing and closure policies.
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And the Countries that have implemented this in the EU - what are their infection rates like compared to ours?
 
j crossley said:
It's interesting that Western Europe have a much higher infection rate than Eastern Europe.
Likewise North America has a much higher infection rate than South America.
And Africa has hardly any confirmed cases at all.
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There could be a multitude of reasons for that.
Some countries have large amounts of international movements of people.
In some societies families all live together (children/parents/grand parents and more). That can put the older generations at greater risk.
Some countries are so poor that many people are malnourished and easily fall prey to infection.
Not all countries have sophisticated administrations that facilitate recording of very much. There are countries whose populations are "invisible" like Somalia where only a few per cent of births are recorded.
Parts of Asia have many "invisible" people.
Russia (still a secretive country) admits to just 17 infections ???
Some countries just tell lies. N. Korea does not admit to any infection (https://www.businessinsider.com/almost-200-north-korean-soldiers-died-coronavirus-2020-3?r=US&IR=T ).
There are countries that the vast majority of us never hear much about until there is an outcry that millions of people are struck down by some humanitarian disaster.

The statistics that we see for Covid 19 are only part of the picture.
 
Once it peaks in Italy and decreases could be a good time for an uncrowded Venice or Pisa trip
Should keep all those cruise ships away for a while and hotels will have plenty of reasonably priced rooms
 
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DK602 said:
Closure policies is a very difficult call!

We close the schools as we know they are breeding grounds but unfortunately this would then mean lots of our public sector workers would not be able to come to work because of child care issues so it would really hit the staffing of these vital services.
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If my local hospital is anything to go by I think they'll be having to self isolate anyway as they've not been fit testing staff for masks as theres only one machine and they've only bothered doing a few out of the 2300 or so staff!
 
DK602 said:
https://naturalresources.house.gov/imo/media/doc/Moore Testimony WOW Ov Hrg 05.22.19.pdf
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Doug. I've read the report now. It's not possible or even desirable to go into this in lengthy detail in a thread on the virus..it wouldn't be appreciated. My issues came up with regard to to our relationship with animals/wildlife in the context of the contagion and spilled over into the history of that relationship so I'll keep it as brief as I can. Difficult but here goes.

My main point was that 'the planet could have done without humans considering the consequences and not just regarding extinctions but cruel exploitation for vanity possessions and erroneous beliefs re medicines etc.. and of course,profit. The are mink farms in Finland, bear bile farms in China (once again to supply the 'traditional Chinese medicine market') Slaughter..ongoing..of sharks for their fins for shark fin soup mainly in SE Asia..as ever.A practice banned in UK waters but the fins can be imported into the EU so here as well. Maybe that can changer now. If numbers are to be believed 100 million a year. Since 2011 an 80% drop in consumption in China as a result of campaigns.There're an essential part of the oceans' ecosystem...not to mention the utter cruelty of cutting off fins of live sharks leaving them to bleed to death in the oceans. The illegal trade in exotic creatures in general.The clubbing to death of seal pups in Canada to service what can be called the 'vanity trade'. Silk worms are boiled alive,their skin used for silk cloth. What else. Seals-Rabbits (for Angora wool)-Foxes-(pelts,scarves etc) endangered Tibetan Chiru for their fur..it's illegal but there's a thriving black market. The wool is called shahtoosh. Re domestic animals .In some places lambs killed in the womb to supposedly get very soft wool called karakulIt, minks, beavers,cats and dogs. The once thriving feather trade..it goes on and on. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/how-two-women-ended-the-deadly-feather-trade-23187277/

Re. your link. Patrick Moore Ph.D states in his article.....and this is what I was referring to.

"Human-caused extinction began in earnest when our ancesters went out of Africa and colonised other lands. Australia 60,000 years ago.The New World 15,000 years ago,New Zealand 1200 years ago all islands colonised by Europeans from 1500 years ago.

Causes: Over hunting for food, Purposeful eradication of pests..ie the Passenger pigeon,(this was in 1914 and was a wake up call to the public regarding the extinctions being caused) The Carolinian Parakeet and the mastodom amongst others. In addition, the introduction of predators such as rats, cats, foxes and snakes causing the greatest extinction especially on islands. {successful eradication programmes are redressing this issue. Eg eradication of rats that ate birds eggs and chicks}

Massive clearance of native eco-systems for food and fibre. Clearance for corn production for bio-fuel (green fuel) and palm oil...de-forestation. ( my addition..Decimation of populations orangutans in Indonesia comes to mind)

I checked on who the author is ,always a good idea..and found these articles about who he is and refuting his claims.

https://www.desmogblog.com/patrick-moore

https://ipbes.net/news/million-threatened-species-thirteen-questions-answers

I do appreciate that there are many good people trying to get the above traditions and practices stopped,including legal cruel and abhorrent 'sporting traditions' such as bullfighting...Spain,Portugal and SW France. There are also those involved in bringing species back from the brink including some zoos involved in endangered species programmes.

I need a break..lol. Have some photos to post which is why I joined..:)
 
JohnC6 said:
Doug. I've read the report now. It's not possible or even desirable to go into this in lengthy detail in a thread on the virus..it wouldn't be appreciated. My issues came up with regard to to our relationship with animals/wildlife in the context of the contagion and spilled over into the history of that relationship so I'll keep it as brief as I can. Difficult but here goes............ etc.

.:)
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That is an enormous subject which would be of immense interest to many people. Covid 19 is also an enormous, and fast growing subject.
I respectfully suggest that, for the sake of clarity, it would be best to have separate threads for each subject.
 
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arclight said:
That is an enormous subject which would be of immense interest to many people. Covid 19 is also an enormous, and fast growing subject.
I respectfully suggest that, for the sake of clarity, it would be best to have separate threads for each subject.
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I think that's a very fair point to an excellent well worded post by John - he does actually say it himself in fairness.
 
Nothing will stop it , if you're in a vulnerable group you need to self isolate yourself not expect other people to do it because they won't , a huge number of people live payday to payday , they're not going to take 2 unpaid weeks off work because they've got a cold no matter where they've been on holiday

I've just been in a cafe , the staff were asking every customer if they have any food allergies, if you've got food allergies that could potentially kill you don't eat in Cafe's , everything is somebody else's problem,when it's your life , you're the one that needs to protect it
 
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DK602 said:
And the Countries that have implemented this in the EU - what are their infection rates like compared to ours?
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This from the BBC

Screenshot 2020-03-11 at 13.23.15.png

I'm not sure infection rates are relevent though. Are we waiting until ours reach those levels before we decide to act. Is that a calculated risk the government is prepared to take?
 
I know there are a lot of sceptics here about the numbers in China, as I appreciate, but China just offered Italy 1000 ventilators, medics, 100,000 masks + PPE.

If China hasn’t curb their outbreak and got it under control, why would they do this?

This gives the numbers reported from China a lot more credibility than people give them for.
 
I think there will be an explosion of cases in the UK over the next few weeks but I also think this will happen even if mass gatherings had been stopped several weeks ago.
 
Raymond Lin said:
I know there are a lot of sceptics here about the numbers in China, as I appreciate, but China just offered Italy 1000 ventilators, medics, 100,000 masks + PPE.

If China hasn’t curb their outbreak and got it under control, why would they do this?

This gives the numbers reported from China a lot more credibility than people give them for.
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There are about a third of a million Chinese living in Italy (Milan has a Chinatown area). China may have future commercial and political aims in mind that could be advanced if it was to be viewed in a beneficial light. Having said that, I could not condemn them if they were pretending to altruistic because very few, if any, countries truly are. All countries have their snouts in the same trough, so to speak.
 
Just had CV. Can't say I'm impressed; as a viral illness, it's dynamic range was lacking, it was a bit soft round the edges, lacked contrast. Nowhere near the quality of something like Swine 'Flu.

I got bored and moved it on.
 
AZ6 said:
Just had CV. Can't say I'm impressed; as a viral illness, it's dynamic range was lacking, it was a bit soft round the edges, lacked contrast. Nowhere near the quality of something like Swine 'Flu.

I got bored and moved it on.
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I really don't know if you are being serious or not :thinking:
 
Raymond Lin said:
To all the "just Flu bro" and "China can't be trusted."

https://www.corriere.it/salute/mala...e3-11ea-a693-c7191bf8b498.shtml?refresh_ce-cp

Italian Press.

Errrr, that is 50% hospitalisation.

Flu doesn't hospitalise 50% of people and put 9% in intensive care. Does it?!

Total Cases = 10149
- Recovered = 1004
- Died = 631
Currently Infected Patients =8514
- Home Isolation = 2599
- Hospitalized with symptoms =5038
- Intensive Care Unit =877

Let's have the "Italian smokes more, Italians have an aging population, Italians can't be trusted, Italians are corrupted." Let's have all the excuses.
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Could the ‘hospitalized with symptoms’ be just part on the initial attempts to isolate those infected as I think that has been the procedure of most countries when the initial outbreak hits?
Even so, as you point out it is not ‘just flu’ given that so many have died or been put in intensive care.
 
DK602 said:
I think there will be an explosion of cases in the UK over the next few weeks but I also think this will happen even if mass gatherings had been stopped several weeks ago.
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I think that you are likely to be shown to be correct.
I have had a brief look at the Gov's action plan. In particular, one of the aims is to spread out the surge of infections over a period of weeks to avoid having a sudden and massive spike in numbers. That makes good sense. A massive spike would overwhelm the NHS (which will have lost key staff to the virus). I am not at all clear as to how it is possible to exert infection control in a way that would permit this epidemic to be sufficiently manageable.
Whatever way this disease progresses it seems to me that the public at large must be convinced and motivated to play a major part. Standing by and expecting or hoping that the Gov and NHS will sort this out is simply not enough.
People must make a strong and prolonged effort to to reduce the risk of becoming infected and to avoid infecting others.. There is a lot written about how to do that, but it needs sustained and unmissable publicity.
 
At work, all visitors, non essential to business are banned from the buildings. Any guests for essential meetings etc are to fill out a questionnaire, any negative answers will mean they can't come in. Canteen food offerings are now restricted, people are advised to bring their own food, which I do anyway). Meetings are restricted to groups no larger than 25. People who could possibly work from home are being told to take their laptops home every day as a precaution they are not able to return the following day, if they don't have laptops, then ensure they have upto date log in details for remote access from home.
I am unable to work from home, so that doesn't apply to me, but I have just been asked for my mobile number, should they need to notify me that I shouldn't go in to work.
 
arclight said:
I am not at all clear as to how it is possible to exert infection control in a way that would permit this epidemic to be sufficiently manageable.
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Social isolation - that's how China got things under control (in my opinion!). Sadly, in this entitled day and age, people won't do it. Look at the number of folks on this thread alone saying it's no worse than the flu. People won't believe it's bad until it's too late.
 
Harlequin565 said:
Social isolation - that's how China got things under control (in my opinion!). Sadly, in this entitled day and age, people won't do it. Look at the number of folks on this thread alone saying it's no worse than the flu. People won't believe it's bad until it's too late.
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Yes, I agree and have met a few of them.
Another group are the "If it is going to get you it will get you brigade". I feel like saying in that case just shut your eyes when crossing the road - if you are going to get knocked down you will get knocked down.
 
arclight said:
I feel like saying in that case just shut your eyes when crossing the road -
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Lots of people seem to - they're looking down at their phones with their brains in neutral.
 
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