Trophy Hunting Bill

[JohnC6]

I was very pleased to see that the Hunting Trophies (Import Prohibition) Bill went through parliament last week. It's gone to the Lords. Those who want to carry on trophy hunting say that the owners of the land on which it takes place uses the income to preserve the rest but there's no evidence that the claim is true not that it's a reason to allow trophy hunting, anyway. It shouldn't be left to private companies to preserve wildlife but government bodies and well-funded ones ,too. 125,000 animals a year are killed by trophy hunters. Between 2008 and 2017 nearly 40,000 'trophies' from African elephants, just over 8,000 from leopards and 14,000 from African lions were exported ..ie taken home by the hunters..worldwide. The main five hunted are endangered like lions, leopards, rhinos, elephants and Cape buffalos. Wealthy Americans are fuelling the trophy hunting industry. I didn't realise this but Canada provides the most amount of wild trophy hunting trips and most of the US-imported animal trophies are coming from there. Maybe not so surprising as they allow seal pups to be bludgeoned to death. South Africa, Canada, Mozambique, Namibia and Zimbabwe are the top exporters of animal trophies. Over the years male lions have become smaller because the trophy hunters target the largest.

More than half of the United States allows the hunting of black bears for sport. Florida held some of the most controversial hunts in 2016. After 75 percent of residents opposed the hunt, the state went ahead and hunters killed 306 bears in just two days. Infact, so many that officials called off the rest of the week’s hunt. Anger from local residents errupted when it was reported 36 black bears were lactating females.

As we know, there are too many sick-minded humans in the world like these two..https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/17/bill-banning-import-of-hunting-trophies-into-uk-passed-by-mps

 

[sphexx]

I shall have to disagree with you John. It’s another example of the “tragedy of the commons”. Laws like this just make people feel better without achieving much if anything.

You’ve seen examples of what you are advocating, on a small scale, on these pages this week with Plymouth and Sheffield councils being in charge of tree preservation and yet acting contrary to the spirit of the law. The same sort of thing happens when countries are involved — Amazon rainforest in recent years.

I don’t understand the attraction of trophy hunting and as I’ve mentioned before, there are some very strange practices at “game ranches” in USA.

There’s no easy answer but probably it should be left to the local people to decide.

 

[JohnC6]

I shall have to disagree with you John. It’s another example of the “tragedy of the commons”. Laws like this just make people feel better without achieving much if anything.

You’ve seen examples of what you are advocating, on a small scale, on these pages this week with Plymouth and Sheffield councils being in charge of tree preservation and yet acting contrary to the spirit of the law. The same sort of thing happens when countries are involved — Amazon rainforest in recent years.

I don’t understand the attraction of trophy hunting and as I’ve mentioned before, there are some very strange practices at “game ranches” in USA.

There’s no easy answer but probably it should be left to the local people to decide.

If enough countries ban the import of trophies it will, eventually, make a difference. Not doing so is really not an option. I can't say for sure, of course but maybe those who go trophy-hunting from here wont' go because they can't import or rather won't be able to when the Bill becomes law, any animal trophies unless they just enjoy killing the animals in which case the law won't bother them much. Trophy hunters from NI can import them there so maybe those here might try their luck getting them here via NI.

We aren't banning trophies as a stand-alone initiative but as part of a global movement to do so. Australia has already banned imports and France is consulting with the EU but in the meantime it's banned the import of lion heads, paws and skins as hunters’ trophies soon after the killing of Zimbabwe’s most famous lion ..Cecil... in 2015 by an American trophy hunter caused international outrage. That was the American dentist ,as I recall.

A copy/paste from "Eurogroup for animals" who claim that the vast majority of trophies go into the US and Europe.

"In many countries around the world, citizens oppose trophy hunting and the import of hunting trophies. Surveys in the EU, Switzerland and the U.S. confirm that between 75 and 96 percent of respondents oppose trophy hunting and support import bans for trophies. In South Africa, the major African exporter of hunting trophies of protected species, a majority of 64 percent disapproves of trophy hunting."

"With the unethical practice of trophy hunting harming species conservation and the economy for decades, a policy shift is long overdue. Together, with a united voice of 136 NGOs from all around the world, we call on governments to take responsibility towards the protection of species and biodiversity, and to ban the import of hunting trophies."

Reineke Hameleers

Another voice in support of a ban. Dr Joanna Swabe, senior director of public affairs at Humane Society International/Europe. “As the largest importers of hunting trophies in the world, the US and EU have a moral obligation to stop contributing to this harmful industry through hunting trophy imports and to institute policies that support ethical forms of foreign aid, tourism and industry”

 

[sphexx]

If enough countries ban the import of trophies it will, eventually, make a difference. Not doing so is really not an option. I can't say for sure, of course but maybe those who go trophy-hunting from here wont' go because they can't import or rather won't be able to when the Bill becomes law, any animal trophies unless they just enjoy killing the animals in which case the law won't bother them much. Trophy hunters from NI can import them there so maybe those here might try their luck getting them here via NI.

We aren't banning trophies as a stand-alone initiative but as part of a global movement to do so. Australia has already banned imports and France is consulting with the EU but in the meantime it's banned the import of lion heads, paws and skins as hunters’ trophies soon after the killing of Zimbabwe’s most famous lion ..Cecil... in 2015 by an American trophy hunter caused international outrage. That was the American dentist ,as I recall.

A copy/paste from "Eurogroup for animals" who claim that the vast majority of trophies go into the US and Europe.

"In many countries around the world, citizens oppose trophy hunting and the import of hunting trophies. Surveys in the EU, Switzerland and the U.S. confirm that between 75 and 96 percent of respondents oppose trophy hunting and support import bans for trophies. In South Africa, the major African exporter of hunting trophies of protected species, a majority of 64 percent disapproves of trophy hunting."

"With the unethical practice of trophy hunting harming species conservation and the economy for decades, a policy shift is long overdue. Together, with a united voice of 136 NGOs from all around the world, we call on governments to take responsibility towards the protection of species and biodiversity, and to ban the import of hunting trophies."

Reineke Hameleers

Another voice in support of a ban. Dr Joanna Swabe, senior director of public affairs at Humane Society International/Europe. “As the largest importers of hunting trophies in the world, the US and EU have a moral obligation to stop contributing to this harmful industry through hunting trophy imports and to institute policies that support ethical forms of foreign aid, tourism and industry”

Yes, I know a ban is popular but really that doesn’t mean much . The opinions of people who are polled on this sort of thing which doesn’t in any way affect them are not worth very much — not referring to you here, John, as I know you are interested in the subject so it does affect you in a sense.

 

[troutfisher]

From the Jungle Book
Sher Khan the tiger calls to the jungle-"Give me leave to hunt for I am hungry" and the jungle replies " Hunt then for food but not for pleasure".

 

[ancient_mariner]

I doubt a ban on importing trophies will make much difference, and also asking local people what they think. I'm pretty sure that in Zimbabwe anything that brings dollars will be seized with enthusiasm.

 

[JohnC6]

Yes, I know a ban is popular but really that doesn’t mean much . The opinions of people who are polled on this sort of thing which doesn’t in any way affect them are not worth very much — not referring to you here, John, as I know you are interested in the subject so it does affect you in a sense.

I doubt a ban on importing trophies will make much difference, and also asking local people what they think. I'm pretty sure that in Zimbabwe anything that brings dollars will be seized with enthusiasm.

With respect ,you' seem to be overlooking the point I made. The UK banning imports is part of a global drive to get trophy hunting banned. On it's own,I agree, the ban on imports here will make no difference but the UK is adding its voice along with other countries and organisations to get the activity banned and banning imports is just one step to that end. An obvious target has to be CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Fauna and Flora) which protects wildlife from poachers and hunters. However, the treaty does not cover trophy hunting at all and as a result poachers are banned from killing elephants for their tusks whilst trophy hunters aren't. The reason it's exempted is that it is considered a “non-commercial” activity and because hunting trophies are considered to be “personal and household effects”

Toni. Re Zimbabwe . The people are against it. Trophy hunting there contributes very little to the economy in the overall picture but on a personal level there's corruption of politicians and regional political figures but what the government there has to be persuaded of is that they'd get a great deal more income from safari tourism. It's worked in other countries where locals have been paid to look after the indiginous animals and share in the income from tourists .They've been hired to be guides,too In the Democratic Republic of the Congo tourism re the gorillas raises funds to protect national parks and help local communities.

I came across this article. Nomusa Dube, founder of Zimbabwe Elephant Foundation in 2019, was born and raised in Zimbabwe and works as a Climate Programme Officer and is currently studying Environment and Sustainability. She is a passionate advocate and campaigner for animal rights and welfare and helps communities co-exist with elephants and other wildlife in Zimbabwe. She said she'd spoken to a lot of local people in Zimbabwe and they loathe trophy hunting, they don’t want it at all. They are the guardians of wildlife, it’s their land but they don’t benefit from trophy hunting which only escalates the conflict between people and wild animals. The local people live in fear. Government officials and hunting bodies decide what happens, the communities don’t really have any say. They are used as pawns in this trophy-hunting game so that tens of thousands of dollars can be deposited into foreign bank accounts and that money never returns to Africa. She says that bans on trophy imports would be a huge step forward in terms of saving species that are being hunted because the numbers of wild animals like lions, leopards, elephants, and rhinos are dwindling.

That was my bold as it's relevant to our conversation and I wanted to highlight it .I'm more optimistic than yourselves and as with many difficult situations where change is required if you keep pushing at the door it will eventually open. It will be interesting to see what happens in the Lords because it's previously managed to stop this Bill becoming law by a handful of very wealthy peers. I've tried to find out which peers they are but apart from one, with no success. He is Tory peer Lord Mancroft sand with reference to this current Bill he has said: ‘It’s clear that this Bill evaded any meaningful scientific scrutiny or expert challenge as it was raced through the Commons. We’re determined that won’t be the case in the House of Lords."

Who is he ? Director of Countryside Alliance 1997, vice-chair 2005, chair 2013– 2015. He's been chair of the Standing Conference Countryside Sports and Wildlife Management 2009 and chair of the Masters of the Foxhounds Association since 2014 and takes part in fox hunting. Says it all,really.


When this Bill is before the Lords for scrutiny then, maybe the rest of those those against, or who want to create loopholes, with be identified.

 

[LCPete]

With respect ,you' seem to be overlooking the point I made. The UK banning imports is part of a global drive to get trophy hunting banned. On it's own,I agree, the ban on imports here will make no difference but the UK is adding its voice along with other countries and organisations to get the activity banned and banning imports is just one step to that end. An obvious target has to be CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Fauna and Flora) which protects wildlife from poachers and hunters. However, the treaty does not cover trophy hunting at all and as a result poachers are banned from killing elephants for their tusks whilst trophy hunters aren't. The reason it's exempted is that it is considered a “non-commercial” activity and because hunting trophies are considered to be “personal and household effects”

Toni. Re Zimbabwe . The people are against it. Trophy hunting there contributes very little to the economy in the overall picture but on a personal level there's corruption of politicians and regional political figures but what the government there has to be persuaded of is that they'd get a great deal more income from safari tourism. It's worked in other countries where locals have been paid to look after the indiginous animals and share in the income from tourists .They've been hired to be guides,too In the Democratic Republic of the Congo tourism re the gorillas raises funds to protect national parks and help local communities.

I came across this article. Nomusa Dube, founder of Zimbabwe Elephant Foundation in 2019, was born and raised in Zimbabwe and works as a Climate Programme Officer and is currently studying Environment and Sustainability. She is a passionate advocate and campaigner for animal rights and welfare and helps communities co-exist with elephants and other wildlife in Zimbabwe. She said she'd spoken to a lot of local people in Zimbabwe and they loathe trophy hunting, they don’t want it at all. They are the guardians of wildlife, it’s their land but they don’t benefit from trophy hunting which only escalates the conflict between people and wild animals. The local people live in fear. Government officials and hunting bodies decide what happens, the communities don’t really have any say. They are used as pawns in this trophy-hunting game so that tens of thousands of dollars can be deposited into foreign bank accounts and that money never returns to Africa. She says that bans on trophy imports would be a huge step forward in terms of saving species that are being hunted because the numbers of wild animals like lions, leopards, elephants, and rhinos are dwindling.

That was my bold as it's relevant to our conversation and I wanted to highlight it .I'm more optimistic than yourselves and as with many difficult situations where change is required if you keep pushing at the door it will eventually open. It will be interesting to see what happens in the Lords because it's previously managed to stop this Bill becoming law by a handful of very wealthy peers. I've tried to find out which peers they are but apart from one, with no success. He is Tory peer Lord Mancroft sand with reference to this current Bill he has said: ‘It’s clear that this Bill evaded any meaningful scientific scrutiny or expert challenge as it was raced through the Commons. We’re determined that won’t be the case in the House of Lords."

Who is he ? Director of Countryside Alliance 1997, vice-chair 2005, chair 2013– 2015. He's been chair of the Standing Conference Countryside Sports and Wildlife Management 2009 and chair of the Masters of the Foxhounds Association since 2014 and takes part in fox hunting. Says it all,really.
Lord Mancroft's pedigree

When this Bill is before the Lords for scrutiny then, maybe the rest of those those against, or who want to create loopholes, with be identified.

Interesting John I agree with you about trophy hunting the case of Cecil the Lion was a good example of what happens
A rich individual pays a lot of money to circumvent protections and kills the alpha male of a pride this weakens the population as a whole as well as depriving the locals of income from showing tourists the wildlife Cecil apparently was a big draw
I have been lucky enough to have been on safari and believe that it definitely helps local communities as well as giving them an incentive to protect wildlife

 

[Don Fischer]

I thought this was a protogaphy forum?

 

[sphexx]

I thought this was a protogaphy forum?

Yes it is but topics of a non photographic nature are OK in the “Community“ section and this one probably should be Hot Topics since if there were much discussion it would probably quickly become heated..

Personally I am not against trophy hunting in principle, though I don’t see the attraction myself, and it can be an income generator for local people and conservation.

You could report the post and suggest it was moved though, agai, I don’t feel strongly enough about it myself.

 

[Don Fischer]

I am a huntere but not trophy hunter. I won't even take a photo of a dead animal I've killed or let my photo be taken next to one.

 

[Erty]

There is an argument that this will decrease the value of the animals to the people in most countries which have them. Only hunters and poachers are motivated to see animals in countries with rubbish scenery, bad transport links, no nice hotels and tropical diseases. Tourists don't want to walk through scrub for a day on the off chance of seeing an animal. Nor do photographers.

Trophy hunters pay more. If that income stream is removed, the locals will kill everything and make what money they can from it. Given the levels of poverty in some areas, I won't criticise them for doing it.