What format to set, MP4 or AVCHD ?

jonbeeza · 25 Apr 2014

Not sure what format to set on my Panasonic TZ35 for Video, either MP4 1920x 1080, 25P 20Mbps Or AVCHD 1920x1080, 50i 17Mbps. I have tried both, but so far can't seem to see a great deal of difference! I always thought AVCHD was more clear. Does anybody know if there is a preference between the two ?

The Manual Says

The Bit rate is the data volume for a given period of time. The bigger volume the higher picture qaulity.

AVCHD this data format is suitable for playback on Hi Definition TVs

MP4 This format is suited to playback on Computers and other such devices.

Just wonder why the Manual recommends recording in AVCHD for hi definition TV if the bit rate is lower, so in effect lesser quality !

So in short, what format is best to use for viewing on both TV and Computer ?

jonbeeza · 26 Apr 2014

It seems not many people use Cameras to record video then :thinking:

jonbeeza · 26 Apr 2014

Just done a quick test myself for anyone interested ( so you know I am not talking to myself ) I did two videos of the same scene using the MP4 1920x 1080, 25P 20Mbps setting and the AVCHD 1920x1080, 50i 17Mbps setting. Viewing both videos on the Computer and there is not that much of a difference that I can tell, but viewing both videos on a HD TV and the video recorded in the AVCHD setting looks slightly better, just looks a little wobbly. So I don't really think I will be bothered at what format I use, although I may just use MP4 for easier editing.

st599 · 26 Apr 2014

You're confusing about 3 or 4 things there.

AVCHD is a profile of H.264/MPEG4 part 10 - a video codec
MP4 is a file format which can contain just about any video codec, H.264, MPEG 4, MPEG 2 Motion JPEG....

I reckon the MP4 will contain MJPEG as it's slightly easier to edit.

Then you have interlace (50i) and progressive (25p). 50i has better motion representation but lower resolution. 25p is more filmic. (50p is even better).

If you can't see the difference, you've shot the wrong test footage.

jonbeeza · 26 Apr 2014

st599 said:
You're confusing about 3 or 4 things there.

AVCHD is a profile of H.264/MPEG4 part 10 - a video codec
MP4 is a file format which can contain just about any video codec, H.264, MPEG 4, MPEG 2 Motion JPEG....

I reckon the MP4 will contain MJPEG as it's slightly easier to edit.

Then you have interlace (50i) and progressive (25p). 50i has better motion representation but lower resolution. 25p is more filmic. (50p is even better).

If you can't see the difference, you've shot the wrong test footage.

Yes I am confused, as I don't know anything about video formats etc. I don't really want to do any editing or anything, but simply take video clips with the best quality available. The options to choose are below, and I chose both MP4 and AVCHD formats to record in, just I can't see that much of a difference, maybe slightly clearer with AVCHD on viewing on a HD TV :thinking:

The options to choose from above, and I recorded in both ( AVCHD FHD/50i 1920 x 1080 50i ) and ( MP4 FHD/25 1920 x 1080 25p )

Chappers · 26 Apr 2014

As far as I understand it MP4 is can hanle higher bit rates than AVCHD. It also needs less conversion when it comes to editing over AVCHD. However depending on your editing programme that will be taken care of anyway . If you are happy with either than you can take your pick. Generally AVCHD uses lest space on the card than MP4.

jonbeeza · 26 Apr 2014

Chappers said:
As far as I understand it MP4 is can hanle higher bit rates than AVCHD. It also needs less conversion when it comes to editing over AVCHD. However depending on your editing programme that will be taken care of anyway . If you are happy with either than you can take your pick. Generally AVCHD uses lest space on the card than MP4.

So in short there is no real difference in picture quality ?

st599 · 26 Apr 2014

No. MP4 is a file format. AVCHD is a codec. Without knowing what codec is in the MP4 you can't make that statement.

I would expect AVCHD to outperform the MP4 if it contains MJPEG.

Most modern PCs should be able to edit AVCHD.

jonbeeza · 26 Apr 2014

st599 said:
No. MP4 is a file format. AVCHD is a codec. Without knowing what codec is in the MP4 you can't make that statement.

I would expect AVCHD to outperform the MP4 if it contains MJPEG.

Most modern PCs should be able to edit AVCHD.

I saw this on a video making site ( AVCHD codec? No - not really. AVCHD is a data format, but many people think it's a codec. AVCHD is an acronym for the Advanced Video Codec High Definition format. )

Does not make much sense to me, as I know nothing about video files :thinking:

I have tried to read up on MP4 and AVCHD, but most of it is conflicting stuff ! Just leaves me even more puzzled !

st599 · 26 Apr 2014

jonbeeza said:
I saw this on a video making site ( AVCHD codec? No - not really. AVCHD is a data format, but many people think it's a codec. AVCHD is an acronym for the Advanced Video Codec High Definition format. )

Does not make much sense to me, as I know nothing about video files

I have tried to read up on MP4 and AVCHD, but most of it is conflicting stuff ! Just leaves me even more puzzled !

AVCHD is a Sony/Panasonic format that uses a profile of the H.264 video codec and Dolby AC-3 audio. Both are really high quality but are processor intensive. When they came out in 2006, PCs had issues editing them due to the processing requirements. Modern PCs shouldn't have an issue.

jonbeeza · 26 Apr 2014

Why can't

st599 said:
AVCHD is a Sony/Panasonic format that uses a profile of the H.264 video codec and Dolby AC-3 audio. Both are really high quality but are processor intensive. When they came out in 2006, PCs had issues editing them due to the processing requirements. Modern PCs shouldn't have an issue.

Just looking at this section, it would appear that AVCHD format would be the one to choose for better video quality. As when I set up the camera, it asked me to choose between AVCHD and MP4 format.

But what I can't understand is it also says with a higher bit rate, the video is better quality, but MP4 produces a higher bit rate it would seem ! As below

So looking at the photo instructions above, I have no idea what one is better, as it looks like a contradiction! What one should I set the camera to ? :thinking:

Ulfric M Douglas · 26 Apr 2014

jonbeeza said:
Yes I am confused, as I don't know anything about video formats etc. I don't really want to do any editing or anything,

? but without editing surely you're going to have video clips with really irritating bits in them, especially at the start or the end?

jonbeeza · 26 Apr 2014

Ulfric M Douglas said:
? but without editing surely you're going to have video clips with really irritating bits in them, especially at the start or the end?

Yes I suppose so, but any clips with the in laws in will simply be deleted

. Seriously though, I suppose I could always run them through Windows movie maker.

st599 · 27 Apr 2014

jonbeeza said:
Why can't

Just looking at this section, it would appear that AVCHD format would be the one to choose for better video quality. As when I set up the camera, it asked me to choose between AVCHD and MP4 format.

But what I can't understand is it also says with a higher bit rate, the video is better quality, but MP4 produces a higher bit rate it would seem ! As below

So looking at the photo instructions above, I have no idea what one is better, as it looks like a contradiction! What one should I set the camera to ?

They are correct in that for a given implementation of a codec, higher bitrate will allow better quality (until such a point that it's encoding without causing any loss of quality).
However that statement isn't valid between different codecs.

AVCHD will probably be better. Provided your editing solution can handle it.

jonbeeza · 27 Apr 2014

st599 said:
They are correct in that for a given implementation of a codec, higher bitrate will allow better quality (until such a point that it's encoding without causing any loss of quality).
However that statement isn't valid between different codecs.

AVCHD will probably be better. Provided your editing solution can handle it.

Going the park this morning will take the camera ,and do more video testing in the available formats to choose in the camera set up.

st599 · 27 Apr 2014

Make sure you shoot something moving and something highly detailed.

jonbeeza · 27 Apr 2014

st599 said:
Make sure you shoot something moving and something highly detailed.

Just done a quick test with the Camera on a tripod outside, plenty of plants and foliage in the scene, and playing ball with the dog and myself jumping about. Tried both available formats, and to be honest there is not a great deal in it. They are both clear and good colour, and nice smooth video and not choppy or wobbly at all. I personally can't tell the difference, so I will simply use any format the camera happens to be in, knowing I am safe in getting good quality results.

jonbeeza · 27 Apr 2014

Thanks for all the input so far

Phil Young · 27 Apr 2014

I don't shoot AVCHD because I don't get sound in premier pro.

jonbeeza · 27 Apr 2014

Phil Young said:
I don't shoot AVCHD because I don't get sound in premier pro.

I did hear that MP4 was easier to work with, and AVCHD did have some issues editing files etc. Thanks Phil, so looks like I should set the Camera to MP4 then. As I said, I have not noticed that big a difference in Video Quality to be honest.

Phil Young · 27 Apr 2014

Looking at the above I wouldn't expect you would.

50p is 17mps
25p is 10mps for the same resolution but remember...

The 50p has double the amount of images so would always be higher anyway.

If it was significantly better I'd expect 30mps or something...

jonbeeza · 27 Apr 2014

Phil Young said:
Looking at the above I wouldn't expect you would.

50p is 17mps
25p is 10mps for the same resolution but remember...

The 50p has double the amount of images so would always be higher anyway.

If it was significantly better I'd expect 30mps or something...

Phil, the Camera only records in Full HD 50i in the AVCHD format and not 50P

MP4 Full HD 2P MP4 1920 x 1080, 25P 20Mbps Or AVCHD Full HD AVCHD 1920x1080, 50i 17Mbps.

I always thought interlaced was not as good !

Phil Young · 27 Apr 2014

*for the same resolution*.

I wasn't referring to full HD - I was referring to HD or 720p.

jonbeeza · 27 Apr 2014

Phil Young said:
*for the same resolution*.

I wasn't referring to full HD - I was referring to HD or 720p.

Oh I do apologise Phil, I must admit I did not try just the HD 720P as I thought it would not be as good. I will try that and see what that looks like.

st599 · 27 Apr 2014

Phil Young said:
Looking at the above I wouldn't expect you would.

50p is 17mps
25p is 10mps for the same resolution but remember...

The 50p has double the amount of images so would always be higher anyway.

If it was significantly better I'd expect 30mps or something...

Not necessarily. If you double the temporal sampling for a given spatial resolution, the motion vectors will be much smaller with more tending to zero. Therefore you won't need anywhere near double the bitrate.

Phil Young · 27 Apr 2014

st599 said:
Not necessarily. If you double the temporal sampling for a given spatial resolution, the motion vectors will be much smaller with more tending to zero. Therefore you won't need anywhere near double the bitrate.

Lot of words and phrases I don't know there...but here's my less knowledgeable version:

One has 50 images.
The other has 25 images.

If each image is 500kb then you'd get a bitrate of 25mbps and 12.5mbps respectively (hypothetically).

To get a better image quality, one would expect one of those figures to be significantly higher.

st599 · 27 Apr 2014

Phil Young said:
Lot of words and phrases I don't know there...but here's my less knowledgeable version:

One has 50 images.
The other has 25 images.

If each image is 500kb then you'd get a bitrate of 25mbps and 12.5mbps respectively (hypothetically).

To get a better image quality, one would expect one of those figures to be significantly higher.

Sorry, you're wrong - in AVCHD, H.264, MPEG2 etc. each has 1 image every x frames encoded like a JPEG. All of the other images are manufactured based on these images. The image is split up into blocks and where that block has moved to in subsequent frames is stored (its "Motion Vector") and some error correction. The more complex the algorithm, the more processing needed.

By moving from 25 to 50 frames per second, the amount of motion between frames is halved - the motion vectors are smaller and more are negligible and therefore thrown away. So you don't need double the bitrate.

st599 · 27 Apr 2014

Phil Young said:
I don't shoot AVCHD because I don't get sound in premier pro.

http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/extend.html#Supportedvideoformats

jonbeeza · 27 Apr 2014

Phil Young said:
Lot of words and phrases I don't know there...but here's my less knowledgeable version:

One has 50 images.
The other has 25 images.

If each image is 500kb then you'd get a bitrate of 25mbps and 12.5mbps respectively (hypothetically).

To get a better image quality, one would expect one of those figures to be significantly higher.

st599 said:
Sorry, you're wrong - in AVCHD, H.264, MPEG2 etc. each has 1 image every x frames encoded like a JPEG. All of the other images are manufactured based on these images. The image is split up into blocks and where that block has moved to in subsequent frames is stored (its "Motion Vector") and some error correction. The more complex the algorithm, the more processing needed.

By moving from 25 to 50 frames per second, the amount of motion between frames is halved - the motion vectors are smaller and more are negligible and therefore thrown away. So you don't need double the bitrate.

So fellas, is there really any benefit to using one format over the other mentioned ? This is all getting beyond me now :thinking:

Phil Young · 27 Apr 2014

Ok well I'll step down and accept I'm probably wrong. But I can't get avchd to work with my cs6 - that's after downloading updates, reinstalling, resetting workspaces and sieving through forums for hours...in the end I just gave up and now use h.264 exclusively.

jonbeeza · 27 Apr 2014

Phil Young said:
Ok well I'll step down and accept I'm probably wrong. But I can't get avchd to work with my cs6 - that's after downloading updates, reinstalling, resetting workspaces and sieving through forums for hours...in the end I just gave up and now use h.264 exclusively.

Thanks for your input Phil, I may simply leave it on MP4.