I've got a client who wants some pictures taking for a bar's website, menus and to be put around the bar. They've offered me £60 for a couple of images. I was hesitant about it and did explain my issues. The client said that there would be further work down the line. Now the obvious thing is by doing this work, which is no walk in the park to do, I set a precident about my prices. It all comes down to the age of thing of trying to get established and getting ripped off and the trade off being that hopefully my name gets out there and I get more work. Sacrafice the short term to pay off in the long run. I'm quite tempted to do the work and show them the results and ask for more money. I sold one image the other month for £80. That single image was to be used on a web site. Now I'm selling at least 2 images for £60 to be used on a website, menus and printed in the bar. Am I right to be concerned?
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What to do about being under-payed
- Thread starter petemc
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petemc said:
Oh that old chestnut? :nono:
If you think this is bad, try freelance web design :annoyed:
You have the talent and skills to command a decent fee so I would stand by your principals.
If it was once in a blue moon thing and you got some 'exposure' for your work then great, but business is business (to them especially), but a hobby is a hobby...a blurry line sometimes.
EosD said:
I'm definetly going to be giving them the one with my name on it to start with. Then I think once they've seen the work, they know they want it and they want it by Tuesday, then I'll tell them I can't let it go for £60 based on the usage.
Bachs said:
Freelance web design eh. Yer I've been there
"You want a fully built CMS based site for £200? Are you mad? Yes fine go get your neighbours cat to do it for £50" 
Steep
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If the guy says there's more work down the line tell him so is the discount but for now the price is £xxx, if he wants the images he'll buy them.
If you begin by undervaluing yourself you will find it hard to justify rasing your price later.
If you begin by undervaluing yourself you will find it hard to justify rasing your price later.
RobertP
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If it is going to be price per image then give price breaks.
1-2 images £80 each
3-5 £60 each
etc.
Then you can say as a special offer I'll include these in a higher image rate as a discount if you order more pictures in the next 3 months - but for now you pay the 2 off rate and get a credit back on future orders.
It's the way we handle producing one off manufacured samples - one off costs you say £500 but production price is £80 each. Order 100 after the sample and get the £500 deducted.
1-2 images £80 each
3-5 £60 each
etc.
Then you can say as a special offer I'll include these in a higher image rate as a discount if you order more pictures in the next 3 months - but for now you pay the 2 off rate and get a credit back on future orders.
It's the way we handle producing one off manufacured samples - one off costs you say £500 but production price is £80 each. Order 100 after the sample and get the £500 deducted.
CT
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Pete, what sort of pictures does he want taking, - what's involved in taking them in time and trouble - how big are the prints - are you printing them or having them printed?
The only saving grace I can see at the moment is the shots are being displayed in a public bar where they'll be seen and MIGHT generate some work. Will you be credited for the web shots?
If these were 2 images you already had it wouldn't be so bad, but if you look at your time, skill and outlay on equipment, he's getting a lot for peanuts. I wouldn't do it mate, if he wants it doing he'll pay.
The only saving grace I can see at the moment is the shots are being displayed in a public bar where they'll be seen and MIGHT generate some work. Will you be credited for the web shots?
If these were 2 images you already had it wouldn't be so bad, but if you look at your time, skill and outlay on equipment, he's getting a lot for peanuts. I wouldn't do it mate, if he wants it doing he'll pay.
CT said:
The shots are of ice in a glass from the top with colours in the ice / glass. I only have a vauge idea of how to take, but I'm sure it'll be a complex shoot to setup. I think I'll do the shots either way, simply because it will look cool and there is the chance he'll find the money if he sees the work done. I will be asking for credit for the webshots. The thing is I'm sure if someone asked in a bar who did the photography they'd give the name of my client not mine. I'm just a 3rd party hired for that specific job.
dod
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I don't think you can take the shots and then change the price. If one of my suppliers did that I'd consider it underhand and they wouldn't get another order on principle.
Tell him up front that you've been in a similar position before, been promised additional work which didn't appear and therefore you now charge on a job by job basis. Your cost is £X and if he doesn't like it someone else can do it.
Just my opinion
Tell him up front that you've been in a similar position before, been promised additional work which didn't appear and therefore you now charge on a job by job basis. Your cost is £X and if he doesn't like it someone else can do it.
Just my opinion
CT
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It doesn't sound like an easy job mate.. for anybody. The world is full of tossers who want something for nothing. You could make a lot more money from a Saturday morning wedding, a christening, kids parties- especially with Christmas coming, school photos.... BIG money!! - theatres, restaurants, anywhere people are having a night out and might want their picture taking - put yourself about...
I know you probably have an image of the sort of work you want to do and are trying to break into, but take whatever you can get if it involves a camera and getting paid. Get yourself known and the other opportunities will come. It seems you want to do this job for you more than for him.
I know you probably have an image of the sort of work you want to do and are trying to break into, but take whatever you can get if it involves a camera and getting paid. Get yourself known and the other opportunities will come. It seems you want to do this job for you more than for him.
S
Steve
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Whatever you do make sure that you are both very clear on what he is getting and for how much BEFORE the work is done. If you do not agree and stick to that, your reputation will take more than £60 worth of a battering and the exposure you get will be of the wrong kind.
Personally I agree with everything the others have said..set your prices (as we advised last time you asked a similar question) and stick to them. If you had done that when we advised, the customer would have seen what you charge and either been prepared to hire and pay you your advertised rates, or he will have sort a different photographer elsewhere without even bothering you. I can however assure you that for that money he will not get quality work and you are massively underselling yourself.
Its just like your web design stuff, only with that you know what your value is, like you said get your cat to design you a web page. Currently you are undervaluing your photography work and because you are not yet established, you are doubtful of your rates.
Trust me mate, put yourself about and stick to realistic prices. I bet you don't know it but cheap prices will also be putting of the people hiring for the proper jobs as they will be used to paying reasonable rates for quality work. They could well see your name or hear about you and then see your rates and decide that you are too cheap to deliver the quality that they are expecting its a double edged sword. The work will come and its only cheapskates like this current client that will lose out.
One job does not make a career.
Personally I agree with everything the others have said..set your prices (as we advised last time you asked a similar question) and stick to them. If you had done that when we advised, the customer would have seen what you charge and either been prepared to hire and pay you your advertised rates, or he will have sort a different photographer elsewhere without even bothering you. I can however assure you that for that money he will not get quality work and you are massively underselling yourself.
Its just like your web design stuff, only with that you know what your value is, like you said get your cat to design you a web page. Currently you are undervaluing your photography work and because you are not yet established, you are doubtful of your rates.
Trust me mate, put yourself about and stick to realistic prices. I bet you don't know it but cheap prices will also be putting of the people hiring for the proper jobs as they will be used to paying reasonable rates for quality work. They could well see your name or hear about you and then see your rates and decide that you are too cheap to deliver the quality that they are expecting its a double edged sword
. The work will come and its only cheapskates like this current client that will lose out.One job does not make a career.
dod
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I found this link on another forum Pete, slightly different context but might be useful anyway
http://media.gn.apc.org/feesguide/photo.html#Newspapers
http://media.gn.apc.org/feesguide/photo.html#Newspapers
I am not a money earning photographer, just a hobby for me at the moment, so I might be a bit off the mark, but here goes anyway
I think that for two pictures, for 3 usages each thats too cheap !
thats only £10 per time.
If you look on one of the high quality photo librarys and get a price for a similar shot for the same number of usages, it will give you an idea of costs, and that's just for stock shots !
Custom photography has to be worth more than stock photos.
If you are too cheap from the start, when you get more enquiries based on the cheap price recommendations you will struggle to increase the prices.
Its easy to be busy, but not so easy to make good money, so dont be too cheap!
I would probably decide on a minimum fee for a commercial job that includes a certain number of shots, then a fee per extra shot taken.
You have already probably put too much time and effort into this for just £60.
£60 might be OK if you where visiting someones house to take two snapshots of a pet Dog, but £60 for photos for commercial use for a cash rich bar, (usually owned and run by seriously wealthy people) is taking the P!ss in my opinion.
Also dont forget to agree payment terms, if there is nothing in writing you might never get paid.
If the bar owner called out a plumber to repair a dripping tap, they would get charged more than £60 for 15 minutes work....
Hope that lot helps a bit !
Mark.
I think that for two pictures, for 3 usages each thats too cheap !
thats only £10 per time.
If you look on one of the high quality photo librarys and get a price for a similar shot for the same number of usages, it will give you an idea of costs, and that's just for stock shots !
Custom photography has to be worth more than stock photos.
If you are too cheap from the start, when you get more enquiries based on the cheap price recommendations you will struggle to increase the prices.
Its easy to be busy, but not so easy to make good money, so dont be too cheap!
I would probably decide on a minimum fee for a commercial job that includes a certain number of shots, then a fee per extra shot taken.
You have already probably put too much time and effort into this for just £60.
£60 might be OK if you where visiting someones house to take two snapshots of a pet Dog, but £60 for photos for commercial use for a cash rich bar, (usually owned and run by seriously wealthy people) is taking the P!ss in my opinion.
Also dont forget to agree payment terms, if there is nothing in writing you might never get paid.
That usually means they have no intention of paying you and will find someone else to work for free next time they need something doing...
If the bar owner called out a plumber to repair a dripping tap, they would get charged more than £60 for 15 minutes work....
Hope that lot helps a bit !
Mark.
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Having a look at a couple of stock agaencies for the type of image he want's, especially for menus and web display, he's looking at anywhere between £200-£600 for a royalty free image up to around £1000 for a licensed image depending on what the usage is.
A picture for web use, on a homepage or index page at around 1/4 screen size, licensed for one year, for a bar or restaurant weighs in at a hefty £600 average. and that's just for one image!
You could always strike some sort of deal with him as regards free food and booze. But if you're gonna do what robertP suggests and try and get some more work from him in future, then make sure you get it in writing!
HTH!
A picture for web use, on a homepage or index page at around 1/4 screen size, licensed for one year, for a bar or restaurant weighs in at a hefty £600 average. and that's just for one image!
You could always strike some sort of deal with him as regards free food and booze. But if you're gonna do what robertP suggests and try and get some more work from him in future, then make sure you get it in writing!
HTH!
Nice prices Gandhi
How about taking the high quality product shots, putting them on a photo library, sending small proofs to the customer with a url to the photo library, and let the library negotiate the fees
Your time could then be spent taking more photos, to make some more money.
Mark.
How about taking the high quality product shots, putting them on a photo library, sending small proofs to the customer with a url to the photo library, and let the library negotiate the fees
Your time could then be spent taking more photos, to make some more money.
Mark.
Steve said:Whatever you do make sure that you are both very clear on what he is getting and for how much BEFORE the work is done. If you do not agree and stick to that, your reputation will take more than £60 worth of a battering and the exposure you get will be of the wrong kind.
Personally I agree with everything the others have said..set your prices (as we advised last time you asked a similar question) and stick to them. If you had done that when we advised, the customer would have seen what you charge and either been prepared to hire and pay you your advertised rates, or he will have sort a different photographer elsewhere without even bothering you. I can however assure you that for that money he will not get quality work and you are massively underselling yourself.
Its just like your web design stuff, only with that you know what your value is, like you said get your cat to design you a web page. Currently you are undervaluing your photography work and because you are not yet established, you are doubtful of your rates.
Trust me mate, put yourself about and stick to realistic prices. I bet you don't know it but cheap prices will also be putting of the people hiring for the proper jobs as they will be used to paying reasonable rates for quality work. They could well see your name or hear about you and then see your rates and decide that you are too cheap to deliver the quality that they are expecting its a double edged sword
One job does not make a career.
Yer I know
I took your advice and told him all this to start with but I really need the money I figured £60 for 2 images to be used on the website, that wasn't tooooo bad. But now he's wanting them for menus and everything.
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If he's changed the spec of the job then you need to adjust your prices to compensate. HAve you actually quoted him for this job? If not then I reckon a reasonable charge would be £150 per image for the website, but make sure he realises that they are only licensed for a set period of time. If he wants just 2 or 3 images, royalty free so he can use them at his leisure then £150 per shot would not be asking too much I think. If he grumbles then print out some stuff from stock agencies showing prices of the sort of stuff he's looking for and the usage agreements. I think at those prices he'll be getting an absolute bargain! He'll also struggle to find someone else to do the work at a lower price.
You certainly have the ability and talent to produce the kind of work he's looking for, so you need to price around that.
I get the general impression, and correct me if I'm wrong, that this is more a confidence issue. You don't feel comfortable charging pro rates as you don't see yourself as being in that bracket yet?
Just remember, it's all about todgers. You have to know that yours is bigger, yet still let him get the impression that his is bigger still!
Go wave your willy around some!
You certainly have the ability and talent to produce the kind of work he's looking for, so you need to price around that.
I get the general impression, and correct me if I'm wrong, that this is more a confidence issue. You don't feel comfortable charging pro rates as you don't see yourself as being in that bracket yet?
Just remember, it's all about todgers. You have to know that yours is bigger, yet still let him get the impression that his is bigger still!
Go wave your willy around some!
Absolutely right.
Wave yer willy in his face!
No, seriously, it's far, far too little for a job like that - as a military phot we get asked all the time to do parties and group shots of parades and stuff.
Some is generated by PJHQ and MoD, which is fair enough, but most is from units who see you on the ground and ask for a favour.
I'm happy to do 'favours' for troops on the ground, i.e. a bunch of blokes in a Warrior who are having a sh1te tour and want some quality happy snaps - they'll get them for nothing.
If a unit approaches me for a formal group, then it's big bucks. At least a crate of beer for the Xmas fund
Back on-topic and serious again: a job like you have described is worth at least £300 for an amateur photographer with good skills - a pro will charge 10x that and get it. DO NOT sell yourself short - walk away if in doubt - he'll soon find that everyone else is more expensive.
In addition to your time, there is the equipment costs you've incurred, travel expenses, processing time and expense (if applicable) and digital post-production. Even if the shoot only lasts a couple of hours, that's another 5 hours post-prod. Even if you work fast, you're talking about £10 per hour.
C'mon, tell him to wake up - he pays his bar manager more than that!
Good idea to do some research and take along prices of other sources for comparison.
As others have mentioned, the 'more work later' very, very seldom ever comes forth, belive me we've all been there. And if you do charge less now, you'll never be able to charge more further on.
Best option was the 'discount later' scheme mentioned above.
He's taking the p1$$ and he knows it. Stand your ground - if you believe in the quality of your work, he'll respect that. If he doesn't, then f**k him, who wants clients like that anyway?
Wave yer willy in his face!
No, seriously, it's far, far too little for a job like that - as a military phot we get asked all the time to do parties and group shots of parades and stuff.
Some is generated by PJHQ and MoD, which is fair enough, but most is from units who see you on the ground and ask for a favour.
I'm happy to do 'favours' for troops on the ground, i.e. a bunch of blokes in a Warrior who are having a sh1te tour and want some quality happy snaps - they'll get them for nothing.
If a unit approaches me for a formal group, then it's big bucks. At least a crate of beer for the Xmas fund
Back on-topic and serious again: a job like you have described is worth at least £300 for an amateur photographer with good skills - a pro will charge 10x that and get it. DO NOT sell yourself short - walk away if in doubt - he'll soon find that everyone else is more expensive.
In addition to your time, there is the equipment costs you've incurred, travel expenses, processing time and expense (if applicable) and digital post-production. Even if the shoot only lasts a couple of hours, that's another 5 hours post-prod. Even if you work fast, you're talking about £10 per hour.
C'mon, tell him to wake up - he pays his bar manager more than that!
Good idea to do some research and take along prices of other sources for comparison.
As others have mentioned, the 'more work later' very, very seldom ever comes forth, belive me we've all been there. And if you do charge less now, you'll never be able to charge more further on.
Best option was the 'discount later' scheme mentioned above.
He's taking the p1$$ and he knows it. Stand your ground - if you believe in the quality of your work, he'll respect that. If he doesn't, then f**k him, who wants clients like that anyway?
I've got some samples done now on my site. I'm going to tell him £60 gets him one image for use on the site and that he is taking the p*** by wanting it for use on the menus and large prints for the bar. Its basically creating the brand for that bar and £60 is just a joke.
