Beginner Zooms and choosing FL

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Yes
say I have a zoom lens 24-200

I don't get which Fl to choose ,surely there are too many choices,ok I get that its useful say if you want to get close to something or you want to get a wider shot but all the choices in-between,i think i would go nuts trying them all,is that why I'm attracted to primes because I don't have a choice?
until i have 4 or 5 primes then have to choose between those :)
 
Whatever FL gives the framing you see the best shot as being! I usually err slightly on the loose side (a bit wider than "perfect") since I usually print at A sizes rather than 3:2 so need a little cropping anyway.
 
The choice is made for you :)

You find a scene you want to immortalise/ruin :D
see what you want to take considering the background and angle
move (or adjust your position) to where the image should be taken from according to step 2
adjust the focal length to suit.

Simples.
 
say I have a zoom lens 24-200

I don't get which Fl to choose ,surely there are too many choices,ok I get that its useful say if you want to get close to something or you want to get a wider shot but all the choices in-between,i think i would go nuts trying them all,is that why I'm attracted to primes because I don't have a choice?
until i have 4 or 5 primes then have to choose between those :)

hehehe :D I know what you mean :D but sometimes it's not just about getting it all in by using a wide angle or shooting a bird in flight with a long lens because you can't get closer :D Sometimes it's about the perspective within the frame.

Getting the same subject the same size in the frame with a 24mm and then an 85mm will involve altering your camera to subject distance and this will alter the perspective and the relative size and position of stuff in the frame and the two pictures will look quite different.

I think that it might help to view a zoom as a really long list of primes and you just get to choose the one you want to get the picture you want.
 
PS.

To demonstrate the perspective thing and the effect of focal length and camera to subject distance...

These two shots were taken with different cameras fitted with different lenses on different days. One camera had a wide lens and the other had a long lens. Although the size of the pier isn't exactly the same in each picture it's near enough for a rough little demonstration but just look at the cliff in the background. In one shot it's way off in the distance and is visible under the pier and in the other shot it looms over the pier. This is because with the camera fitted with the shorter lens I had to be much nearer the pier than I was with the camera fitted with the longer lens and camera to subject distance alters perspective.





So, with a zoom lens if we're not tied to a position and aiming to from that position get it all in (like trying to get a group of people all in shot at a wedding when we can't back up any more) or zoom to get something big in the frame (like a bird in flight) we can visualise the final picture we want to capture and position ourselves to get the perspective we want. Once we are at that position we set our zoom to the required length and et voila! The cliff is either off in the background and under the pier or looming over it.

Note this technique can be used for shooting things other than piers and cliffs :D
 
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thanks Alan,i get that somewhat about perspective and re say using the zoom as a few primes,only think is you have all the extra FL in between say 20-24-28-35-50 you could have 22-26-33-38-42-45 lol ,too many choices but yes i get that it has its uses other than just extremes,
i think thats why I liked the x100,i had no choice other than feet lol.
 
so I guess at the end of the day,its about using your eyes to see what you want to capture then using the tools to achieve it
 
so I guess at the end of the day,its about using your eyes to see what you want to capture then using the tools to achieve it

Yes, primes do make things easier, zooms are too complex and frightening :D but sometimes you just can't foot zoom and then zooms have their uses and of course if all you have is one prime you just might not be able to get the perspective and picture you want.
 
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Chris, interestingly for me you've highlighted a key difference between fixed f/l lenses and zooms. The latter forces you to find compositions which work in frame, whereas I find with zooms you're looking through your own eyes (rather than the viewfinder), spot an image and then zoom in or out to get it framed "how you want it".

To me that's the wrong way around for the reason highlighted so clearly by @woof woof above. You end up changing a lot of variables in the scene at once which for us relative newbies can lead to a poor composition.

Primes force us to move around and think harder about subject distances and perspective because they're basically fixed dependent upon where we are standing.

That's my take anyway - I've become a big fan of primes since my change of system!
 
thanks Paul.yes I'm definitely leaning towards primes too.i only have the 50mm 1.8 g at mo but i would like the 24mm 1.8g
 
My most used lens, by far is the 85mm 1.8. I actually find it quite a liberating walk-around lens - unconventional but forces me to look for the scene rather than just snap.

I have a zoom for landscapes (ironically) but then I have enough time to compose and decide on f/l and my own shooting position...
 
thanks Alan,i get that somewhat about perspective and re say using the zoom as a few primes,only think is you have all the extra FL in between say 20-24-28-35-50 you could have 22-26-33-38-42-45 lol ,too many choices but yes i get that it has its uses other than just extremes,
i think thats why I liked the x100,i had no choice other than feet lol.

Well yes there are pretty much infinite choices of FL on a zoom lens, but when shooting with a zoom it's not a consideration of what FL to use for a particular shot, i don't look a a scene and think "oh i need 22.4mm on my zoom lens", i look at the scene and twist the barrel until i achieve the composition i was after, it wouldn't even occur to me to look at what FL i was at as its totally irrelevant
 
Well yes there are pretty much infinite choices of FL on a zoom lens, but when shooting with a zoom it's not a consideration of what FL to use for a particular shot, i don't look a a scene and think "oh i need 22.4mm on my zoom lens", i look at the scene and twist the barrel until i achieve the composition i was after, it wouldn't even occur to me to look at what FL i was at as its totally irrelevant
Hi Rich,yes i was meaning more the very many composing possibilities that someone with OCD(moi somewhat) might entail,so you frame the scene then think no let me readjust it and so on and so forth lol,but yes get your point.
 
Well yes there are pretty much infinite choices of FL on a zoom lens, but when shooting with a zoom it's not a consideration of what FL to use for a particular shot, i don't look a a scene and think "oh i need 22.4mm on my zoom lens", i look at the scene and twist the barrel until i achieve the composition i was after, it wouldn't even occur to me to look at what FL i was at as its totally irrelevant

By zooming in or out you'll only alter the framing and not the perspective. You may be perfectly happy with the final image or indeed you may not be able to alter the perspective as you may not be able to change position but if you want to do it a different way and get a different picture you may be able to, if you can move. At a wedding when shooting a group shot you may not be able to back up and use an 85mm and you may have to use a 28mm and when shooting an eagle in flight a 28mm may be useless but if the option to move is available there's the option to alter the perspective to get the picture you want.

My point is that you may be able to use a zoom like a huge big bag of primes by altering your position and distance relative to the subject to get the framing and / or perspective you want just as you would with a prime.

In the example pictures above once I was standing at either 28 or 100mm distance no amount of zooming in or out would alter the pier / cliff perspective and I'd be stuck with it either appearing under the pier or looming over it. It's only by altering the camera to subject distance that I get to choose the perspective of the picture.

Used like this a zoom has advantages over primes... you don't have to change the lens and you only need one lens instead of multiple lenses. The drawbacks are that a zoom probably wont give you the wide aperture that a prime will (although there are some Sigma f1.8 zooms) and the zoom will possibly be bigger and heavier than a single prime but might be lighter and less bulky than a bag full of primes.

When using a zoom effectively as a bag full of primes I wouldn't look at the irrelevant, as you put it, focal length. Instead I'd position myself for the composition and perspective I wanted and then frame the shot. The example pictures above could not have both been taken with a single prime (well actually they could as what I could have done is take the 28mm shot from 100mm distance and crop it but by doing that I'd be loosing a lot of resolution) but they could have both been taken with a 28-200mm zoom, by changing position between each shot.

I'm just highlighting a way of using zooms. Yes, you can stand in one spot and zoom in and out but there may be the option of positioning yourself to get a different looking final picture :D
 
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I really appreciate all the advice but now im no nearer knowing wether to get a prime or a zoom as both options can be good, lol
 
I really appreciate all the advice but now im no nearer knowing wether to get a prime or a zoom as both options can be good, lol

I think for me a lot would depend upon how I wanted to shoot and of course what I wanted to shoot.

When I'm by myself I'm happy with my camera and just one prime or maybe one on the camera and another one or two in the bag but when I'm with other people changing lenses and faffing about might be too much so a zoom could be a better option. For example my GF used to snap like crazy with her iphone but she's pretty much stopped now and instead asks me to take pictures she can then grab and share with family and friends. I'm happy to do that but I want to enjoy the day with her and I don't want to be running up and down hills and changing lenses and turning the whole thing into a photoshoot so instead of using 2 or 3 primes and changing lenses to suit the shot I either just stick to one lens, a 35 or 50mm prime (and accept the perspective limitations) or a zoom and in fact I recently bought a 24-70mm f2.8 (equivalent) lens for this purpose and apart from the additional bulk over a single prime the zoom works very well :D

So in your place I think I might go for a two lens solution :D and get a nice prime, something like a 28, 35, 50 or even 85mm f1.4 or f1.8 and also a 28-70mm f2.8 or even a superzoom (28-300mm?) to give you options :D

A complication for me is that when I'm out and about I can't seem to pass a flower without taking a picture of it and close focusing is a big advantage so I prefer either zooms or primes that have the ability to take a nice pseudo macro flower shot :D
 
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Thankyou
As i tend to be a loner i guess i can just do my own thing and probably just carry a couole of primes. I think the sharpness of some of the primes is also attracting me to get them though maybe thats not the best reason
 
When I started getting 'in' to photography, there was still a lot of prejudice against variable focal length lenses; there was a fair bit against interchangeable lens system SLR's as well, TBH.
An SLR needs a mirror-housing between the film-plane and lens mount to accommodate the periscope that allows through-taking-lens view-finder; the mirror has to be as tall as the film-trap, so the mirror housing has to be at least as deep as the mirror is tall, to let it swing out of the way; so if you use 35mm film, with a 24x36mm film-trap, you need at least an inch of mirror housing; so you cant mount a lens any closer than 25mm, probably more like 35.

Consequently, lenses for SLR cameras tend to be compromised from the out-set by being what's known as 'Retro-Focus', the optics being 'fudged' to focus behind the natural focal-plane, to accommodate the mirror housing, rather than simpler, 'true focal length', which you can have on a range-finder or twin-lens-reflex camera that doesn't have a mirror housing 'in the way'.

Zoom, variable focal length, lenses, then add more 'compromises'. To offer a lens that changes focal length, you need 'movements' inside the lens. This means that stuff moves; which means its harder to maintain accurate alignments; and where parts move against other parts, they tend to 'wear' so maintaining alignments gets worse with age. Add a 'loose' quick-release bayonet mount to that, rather than a fine thread screw mount to let lenses be interchangeable, or even to have the lens permanently fixed to the camera body, and things are getting more and more compromised.

Keep It Simple - a fixed-lens camera, is simple; the lens can be true focal length; there's no mount to introduce 'play' to spoil focus accuracy, or movements to introduce more.

So, introducing 'sophistication', through the lens view-finder, interchangeable lenses & variable focal length zoom lenses, you introduce compromises that tend to make the camera more expensive, and less 'precise' for the 'user easement' offered.

My first SLR was a 2nd hand Olympus OM10, with 35-70 & 70-210 'zoom' lenses, covering pretty much the entire 'then common' range of focal lengths. As the lens-mount and the 35-70's zoom barrel started to get a bit 'wobbly', I started to 'get' what the 'luddites' were talking about! Meanwhile, I started getting given 'old' cameras, other people didn't know how or couldn't be bothered to use; Of the ones that I've kept I have a rather nice Ziess Ikonta 120 roll film 'folder', and an all metal Sigma MK1, M42 screw-fit SLR.

That Sigma, became the basis of a second 'all-prime' SLR 'outfit', I started to build up for 'pocket-money'. Screw-Fit lenses, and particularly primes at that time were rather out of favour and very cheap in the second hand baskets in the camera shops. The Olympus, with all the easements of meter-coupled exposure, zooms and winder was great for 'fast-photo'; not having to work too hard to get a shot; but the Sigma, whilst still compromised by being an interchangeable system SLR, with rigidly mounted screw-fit primes, wasn't 'as' compromised; the lenses didn't wobble, and they tended to have better optics and faster apertures. Camera was completely clock-work and fully manual, and the only concession to convenience was a swing needle through the lens exposure meter. It was a different sort of 'slow-foto' methodology, taking your time, being more discerning, more disciplined, more diligent, more 'thinking' about it all.

Over ten years, rummaging through the baskets whenever I went to by some film, I acquired quite a lot of lenses for it, usually for £2-£3 a time, or maybe £5-£10 for a 'lucky-dip' bag of 'stuff', usually including a camera, like an old Praktika or Zenith! Oh the 'fun' we used to have when they sold stuff in real shops! ANYWAY, point is, that that M42 'outfit' evolved, and now, twenty odd years on consists of; Camera; 29mm prime, 50mm prime, 135mm prime, 300mm prime and a 12mm fish-eye. Just five lenses. These days it lives in 'period' gadget-bag, but way-back-when, I did 'go-retro' and the camera lived in it's soft case with the 50 on the front, the 29 & 135 in soft-cases on the strap! The 135 proved a bit of a pain in the ribs for the use it got, so was often left at home, and these days, (I still use it BTW), I tend to be even more discerning (or lazy!), and when it goes out, tends to just have whatever is screwed to the body on it!

But, three, maybe four 'prime' lenses; wide-angle, normal-angle, short tele-photo & long tele-photo. 29mm to 300mm.... and 'everything' is covered, pretty much. You really DON'T need all the 'middling' focal lengths in between.

As far as composition is concerned, framing shouldn't be 'that' critical, and you'd do better to frame with your feet than a zoom-travel. For perspective depth-extending or depth-shrinking stacking effects? Difference in a couple of mm of zoom travel is again, not going to make that much odds, and even with the large-range zooms of today, to get that sort of effect you are probably still going to be reaching for another (zoom) lens, rather than getting it with a control ring, and you are STILL going to be framing with your feet to do it 'properly'.

My electric-picture-maker has taken over from the old Olympus' for 'fast-foto' convenience, now, and wonders of marketing driven consumer electronics see all the 'easements' added as 'sales features' for little added cost thanks to saturation sales; but curiously back to a four lens 'outfit'; 4.5mm fish, 8-16mm UWA, 18-55mm 'Standard' & 55-300 tele-photo. Pushes the end-stops of available focal lengths a bit, but, practically it makes little odds.

The zooms aren't so much like having five or six or more primes in one lens-body. That's just not how you would use 'primes'.

The 18-55 'Kit', covering the equivalent of a 28 'wide', 50 'normal' & 80 'short-tele', is probably the closest, but using primes, I wouldn't pack three so close in focal-length for any outing, and if I did, I probably wouldn't use them all!

So, it's slightly ironic, that, with the electric-picture maker, I am back to three & the fish, and they are picked, almost exactly the same as the old primes, as 'a' wide-angle, 'a' normal angle, and 'a' telephoto. At best, there is a little over-lap in coverage, and one 'zoom' might, for practical purposes, cover the framing of two primes, but more often, they are doing the same 'job' as a prime in that range, and just offering a bit of fine adjustment around it.
 
Thankyou
As i tend to be a loner i guess i can just do my own thing and probably just carry a couole of primes. I think the sharpness of some of the primes is also attracting me to get them though maybe thats not the best reason

Sounds lkke a good plan but the next thing is deciding what primes to get :D I like a standard-ish view so 35 or 50mm suits me best but I also like having a longer lens for portraits and a macro too or at least a close focusing lens for stuff like flower shots and before I know it I've got 6 or 7 :D

I'd still also recommend even a cheap zoom for occasional use and often I think that I could just live with a standard 28-70mm and a 35 or 50mm f1.8, oh, and a macro :D
 
When I started getting 'in' to photography, there was still a lot of prejudice against variable focal length lenses; there was a fair bit against interchangeable lens system SLR's as well, TBH.
An SLR needs a mirror-housing between the film-plane and lens mount to accommodate the periscope that allows through-taking-lens view-finder; the mirror has to be as tall as the film-trap, so the mirror housing has to be at least as deep as the mirror is tall, to let it swing out of the way; so if you use 35mm film, with a 24x36mm film-trap, you need at least an inch of mirror housing; so you cant mount a lens any closer than 25mm, probably more like 35.

Consequently, lenses for SLR cameras tend to be compromised from the out-set by being what's known as 'Retro-Focus', the optics being 'fudged' to focus behind the natural focal-plane, to accommodate the mirror housing, rather than simpler, 'true focal length', which you can have on a range-finder or twin-lens-reflex camera that doesn't have a mirror housing 'in the way'.

Zoom, variable focal length, lenses, then add more 'compromises'. To offer a lens that changes focal length, you need 'movements' inside the lens. This means that stuff moves; which means its harder to maintain accurate alignments; and where parts move against other parts, they tend to 'wear' so maintaining alignments gets worse with age. Add a 'loose' quick-release bayonet mount to that, rather than a fine thread screw mount to let lenses be interchangeable, or even to have the lens permanently fixed to the camera body, and things are getting more and more compromised.

Keep It Simple - a fixed-lens camera, is simple; the lens can be true focal length; there's no mount to introduce 'play' to spoil focus accuracy, or movements to introduce more.

So, introducing 'sophistication', through the lens view-finder, interchangeable lenses & variable focal length zoom lenses, you introduce compromises that tend to make the camera more expensive, and less 'precise' for the 'user easement' offered.

My first SLR was a 2nd hand Olympus OM10, with 35-70 & 70-210 'zoom' lenses, covering pretty much the entire 'then common' range of focal lengths. As the lens-mount and the 35-70's zoom barrel started to get a bit 'wobbly', I started to 'get' what the 'luddites' were talking about! Meanwhile, I started getting given 'old' cameras, other people didn't know how or couldn't be bothered to use; Of the ones that I've kept I have a rather nice Ziess Ikonta 120 roll film 'folder', and an all metal Sigma MK1, M42 screw-fit SLR.

That Sigma, became the basis of a second 'all-prime' SLR 'outfit', I started to build up for 'pocket-money'. Screw-Fit lenses, and particularly primes at that time were rather out of favour and very cheap in the second hand baskets in the camera shops. The Olympus, with all the easements of meter-coupled exposure, zooms and winder was great for 'fast-photo'; not having to work too hard to get a shot; but the Sigma, whilst still compromised by being an interchangeable system SLR, with rigidly mounted screw-fit primes, wasn't 'as' compromised; the lenses didn't wobble, and they tended to have better optics and faster apertures. Camera was completely clock-work and fully manual, and the only concession to convenience was a swing needle through the lens exposure meter. It was a different sort of 'slow-foto' methodology, taking your time, being more discerning, more disciplined, more diligent, more 'thinking' about it all.

Over ten years, rummaging through the baskets whenever I went to by some film, I acquired quite a lot of lenses for it, usually for £2-£3 a time, or maybe £5-£10 for a 'lucky-dip' bag of 'stuff', usually including a camera, like an old Praktika or Zenith! Oh the 'fun' we used to have when they sold stuff in real shops! ANYWAY, point is, that that M42 'outfit' evolved, and now, twenty odd years on consists of; Camera; 29mm prime, 50mm prime, 135mm prime, 300mm prime and a 12mm fish-eye. Just five lenses. These days it lives in 'period' gadget-bag, but way-back-when, I did 'go-retro' and the camera lived in it's soft case with the 50 on the front, the 29 & 135 in soft-cases on the strap! The 135 proved a bit of a pain in the ribs for the use it got, so was often left at home, and these days, (I still use it BTW), I tend to be even more discerning (or lazy!), and when it goes out, tends to just have whatever is screwed to the body on it!

But, three, maybe four 'prime' lenses; wide-angle, normal-angle, short tele-photo & long tele-photo. 29mm to 300mm.... and 'everything' is covered, pretty much. You really DON'T need all the 'middling' focal lengths in between.

As far as composition is concerned, framing shouldn't be 'that' critical, and you'd do better to frame with your feet than a zoom-travel. For perspective depth-extending or depth-shrinking stacking effects? Difference in a couple of mm of zoom travel is again, not going to make that much odds, and even with the large-range zooms of today, to get that sort of effect you are probably still going to be reaching for another (zoom) lens, rather than getting it with a control ring, and you are STILL going to be framing with your feet to do it 'properly'.

My electric-picture-maker has taken over from the old Olympus' for 'fast-foto' convenience, now, and wonders of marketing driven consumer electronics see all the 'easements' added as 'sales features' for little added cost thanks to saturation sales; but curiously back to a four lens 'outfit'; 4.5mm fish, 8-16mm UWA, 18-55mm 'Standard' & 55-300 tele-photo. Pushes the end-stops of available focal lengths a bit, but, practically it makes little odds.

The zooms aren't so much like having five or six or more primes in one lens-body. That's just not how you would use 'primes'.

The 18-55 'Kit', covering the equivalent of a 28 'wide', 50 'normal' & 80 'short-tele', is probably the closest, but using primes, I wouldn't pack three so close in focal-length for any outing, and if I did, I probably wouldn't use them all!

So, it's slightly ironic, that, with the electric-picture maker, I am back to three & the fish, and they are picked, almost exactly the same as the old primes, as 'a' wide-angle, 'a' normal angle, and 'a' telephoto. At best, there is a little over-lap in coverage, and one 'zoom' might, for practical purposes, cover the framing of two primes, but more often, they are doing the same 'job' as a prime in that range, and just offering a bit of fine adjustment around it.
WOW
 
As far as composition is concerned, framing shouldn't be 'that' critical, and you'd do better to frame with your feet than a zoom-travel. For perspective depth-extending or depth-shrinking stacking effects?...

Difference in a couple of mm of zoom travel is again, not going to make that much odds, and even with the large-range zooms of today, to get that sort of effect you are probably still going to be reaching for another (zoom) lens, rather than getting it with a control ring, and you are STILL going to be framing with your feet to do it 'properly'....

The zooms aren't so much like having five or six or more primes in one lens-body. That's just not how you would use 'primes'.

The 18-55 'Kit', covering the equivalent of a 28 'wide', 50 'normal' & 80 'short-tele', is probably the closest, but using primes, I wouldn't pack three so close in focal-length for any outing, and if I did, I probably wouldn't use them all!

Golly :D

Maybe I'm behind the times but I just can't see depth shrinking stacking effects (!?!???? the mind boggles but what do I know...) being a substitute for thinking about my camera to subject position and perspective, not for me personally, and I can't see any post capture effects working on the images I posted above but I'm not too clever at post capture processing. Whilst framing my not need to be hyper critical cropping post capture wastes resolution and not cropping could leave unwanted things in the frame. Choices, choices...

A couple of mm of zoom isn't hyper critical except at the very widest end where 2mm does make a difference and whilst I won't disagree with you about how you use primes I certainly do think about the composition I want including the perspective I want in the final image and even when looking at relatively close focal lengths like 28, 35, 50 and maybe stretching to 85mm, yes, I think there's a difference at each step and I do think that a 28-70mm zoom covers quite a range of primes, a range that I personally would cover with maybe 2 primes. Perhaps a 35 and an 85... or a 28 and a 50 or even 2 much closer lengths like a 35 and a 50mm as IMO even these two lengths give some wiggle room for changes in perspective.

When I'm out by myself with primes I do change position and lenses to achieve the final result I want and I think that using either primes or a zoom in this way is a valid choice, the only limitation being the aperture range and any perhaps small loss in image quality when measuring a zoom against a really good prime but these losses may not be visible in a final image and for me look given is probably more important than finite quality.

Anyway. All stuff to think about.
 
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say I have a zoom lens 24-200

I don't get which Fl to choose ,surely there are too many choices,ok I get that its useful say if you want to get close to something or you want to get a wider shot but all the choices in-between,i think i would go nuts trying them all,...
Blimey.
With a zoom lens you don't conciously choose a focal length, you adjust until the frame is right.
 
Sounds lkke a good plan but the next thing is deciding what primes to get :D I like a standard-ish view so 35 or 50mm suits me best but I also like having a longer lens for portraits and a macro too or at least a close focusing lens for stuff like flower shots and before I know it I've got 6 or 7 :D

I'd still also recommend even a cheap zoom for occasional use and often I think that I could just live with a standard 28-70mm and a 35 or 50mm f1.8, oh, and a macro :D

I currently carry two zooms as I cannot choose which I prefer. One is a Sigma 17-50 and the other a Sigma 18-250 "Macro".

Both have their merits but for you (Mr Snake) I'd consider something like the 18-250. It gives plenty of length when you need but is also reasonable at the close up stuff. I say reasonable because all super zooms as you know are a compromise in terms of quality, but at under £150 I don't see me getting rid of it.
 
Golly :D

Maybe I'm behind the times but I just can't see depth shrinking stacking effects (!?!???? the mind boggles but what do I know...) being a substitute for thinking about my camera to subject position and perspective, not for me personally, and I can't see any post capture effects working on the images I posted above but I'm not too clever at post capture processing. Whilst framing my not need to be hyper critical cropping post capture wastes resolution and not cropping could leave unwanted things in the frame. Choices, choices...

A couple of mm of zoom isn't hyper critical except at the very widest end where 2mm does make a difference and whilst I won't disagree with you about how you use primes I certainly do think about the composition I want including the perspective I want in the final image and even when looking at relatively close focal lengths like 28, 35, 50 and maybe stretching to 85mm, yes, I think there's a difference at each step and I do think that a 28-70mm zoom covers quite a range of primes, a range that I personally would cover with maybe 2 primes. Perhaps a 35 and an 85... or a 28 and a 50 or even 2 much closer lengths like a 35 and a 50mm as IMO even these two lengths give some wiggle room for changes in perspective.

When I'm out by myself with primes I do change position and lenses to achieve the final result I want and I think that using either primes or a zoom in this way is a valid choice, the only limitation being the aperture range and any perhaps small loss in image quality when measuring a zoom against a really good prime but these losses may not be visible in a final image and for me look given is probably more important than finite quality.

Anyway. All stuff to think about.
thanks
 
Blimey.
With a zoom lens you don't conciously choose a focal length, you adjust until the frame is right.
Again i perhaps worded it wrong ,I meant not choosing by FL per se but having the zoom ring giving so many choices,say I frame and think that looks ok but then think no lets try a little tweaking this way and then maybe that way,OCD type stuff :)
 
I currently carry two zooms as I cannot choose which I prefer. One is a Sigma 17-50 and the other a Sigma 18-250 "Macro".

Both have their merits but for you (Mr Snake) I'd consider something like the 18-250. It gives plenty of length when you need but is also reasonable at the close up stuff. I say reasonable because all super zooms as you know are a compromise in terms of quality, but at under £150 I don't see me getting rid of it.
thanks Ian
 
Blimey.
With a zoom lens you don't conciously choose a focal length, you adjust until the frame is right.
Really? Don't you make a conscious decision to alter your position and capture the perspective you want?

Maybe I'm the only one who thinks like this (I can't be... Shirley :D) but it just seems (almost) obvious and second nature to me. Yes, you can just arrive at a scene/subject and zoom in and out but I'd much rather if at all possible alter my own position and then set the focal length to capture the scene I want at the perspective I want.

Going back to those example images above... they're both pictures of Saltburn pier with the cliff in the background but they are IMO significantly different. The camera to subject distance alters and so does the focal length to create a different picture. These were deliberate choices and neither picture could have been taken from the position I was in to take the other.
 
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Alan ,i think he meant I had implied oh shall i shoot at 37mm or maybe 41mm see above but 1 post .
 
Just to make the same point as Alan differently, I think one of the challenges with a zoom for those of us who have less experience is there's just too much choice when composing a shot. It's easier to explain by considering walking around with a single, say, 20mm prime attached. You're wanting to shoot landscape shots and other than switching lens, you're going to be tied into composing your shots at that focal length and with that sense of distance/perspective in your images. As you're walking around, seeing something with your eyes and holding the camera up to your eye, you'll start to adapt and "see" things in 20mm. As you're doing this more and more, you'll not need to bring the viewfinder up to your eye so much, because you'll start to tune in to how things at different distances will compress (or not) in the frame.

The challenge with a zoom is that unless you tape it to a single f/l, those of us with less experience will struggle to build up that eye memory (if you will) to allow us to see at specific focal lengths. So we'll be standing in a spot, zooming in and out wondering what "looks" best without appreciating, quite as much, that by moving over there or crouching down, we could get a better composition. I think I'm a pretty simple type and having too many variables to think about when composing an image isn't going to make me create a better shot - quite the opposite.

So yes, a zoom gives you far more flexibility and choice, but unless you're experienced enough to know how best to make each of those choices, you may well get a lesser shot... IMHO!
 
I'm with Alan WW. Ideally, the shooting process goes something like: look around the subject, left/right up/down and choose the best angle. Then move backwards/forwards for the best perspective (a vital aspect of composition) and then zoom for the best framing.

That's hard to do with primes, and laborious. Use primes for what they're best at - low f/numbers.
 
There is only one FL, aperture, and SS that is "ideal" for a particular image you want to create. If you trade on any of those settings it will (almost certainly) change the image notably as to what it conveys.
Assuming the aperture and SS is achievable with whatever lens, the only variable that leaves is FL. And focal length is critical in that it controls perspective (spatial relationships/sizes).

The idea that you can "zoom with your feet" using a prime lens is complete garbage... you can "compose with your feet," making significant compromises in the process. The difference is looking thru the lens and moving to find a composition that suits the lens, as opposed to finding/conceiving an image first (essentially w/o the camera), and then choosing a FL to suit that image.

It really has little/nothing to do with what type of lens is being used... you can stand in one place and just zoom in/out looking for an image/composition. And that's the "wrong way" of going about it as well.
 
Perhaps it's a result of having done too much press photography as a young lad but I think modern zoom lenses are just marvelous, All you need is to see something interesting, raise the camera and zoom to get the framing you want. Anything else and the moment has passed...

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Really? Don't you make a conscious decision to alter your position and capture the perspective you want?...
Yes, you can just arrive at a scene/subject and zoom in and out but I'd much rather if at all possible alter my own position and then set the focal length to capture the scene I want at the perspective I want.
No. I'm already in the perfect position where my cloud glided me in.
After that it's just the zoom ring.
 
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