Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[Overexposed]

Again, I don't understand why do you have to replace the battery after 8 years?

It's like wanting to replace the ICE after warranty runs out and say "it no longer do its rated economy so it needs to be replaced!"

But you don't know how efficient your battery will be after 8 years do you? . The engine will still be there on an ICE and I know which i'd prefer to do a 200 mile journey in!

 

[Overexposed]

Toll road taxing is harder to collect than simply sticking a duty of fuel, just that this fuel will be electricity.
Personal solar/Wind generation with storage is the way to go and thats factored into my thoughts on the next house move, land etc as I can see that as an excellent way to reduce bills. National grid work their estimates on 7Kw usage per car per day for Ev at the moment. 3 miles per Kw?

[QUOTE="wuyanxu, post: 8106095, member: 53472"
If only there's more choice in those type of hybrid.
The electric powertrain is far more refined to drive as mentioned by other EV owners.

Some hybrids are much better than others, the BMW i8 is a stunning piece of machinery. A friend went toyota hybrid on his new company car and it's poor (35mpg) compared to his old CX-5 (45mpg)[/QUOTE]
Agreed about the i8 it is stunning, but then it should be for £100k. I've a friend with a Mitsubushi PHEV and the struggle in the early 30s mpg.

 

[Byker28i]

All you have quoted is your perceptions and predictions, not hard evidence. But your perception of 80% battery life after 6 years is garbage backed up by the fact that no manufacturer will guarantee batteries over 8 years old. No doubt they will get better with time but the early generation EVs will be worth little when you have to pay £4k for a new battery for a Nissan( your figures). Like I said before EV needs to mature and the comments about chargers, queues and lack of infrastructure back this up even on this thread.

Renault quoted me nearly £8K to put a 41kw battery into a 21Kw Zoe that had battery issues, which wiped out any thought of that begin a cheap car.


Good thread this by the way as no matter how much you look into things, theres always the chance you've missed something.

 

[Byker28i]

Petrol/diesel hybrids bug the hell out of me from an efficiency stand point but at this moment in time they serve a purpose at least.

It's funny I consider myself a petrol head and have been a total car nut all my life but I'm also obsessed with efficiency. I'm an engineer by trade and everything I have done in the last few years professionally has been efficiency driven. While I'm not particularly a greenie, I'm much more comfortable with the idea of our travel not relying on digging up non-renewable resources. It just seems like a dead-end thing to do no matter how long it can continue for. It causes quite an internal conflict for me! Now I realise that the reality of much of our electricity generation is heavy reliance of fossil fuels but the two reassurances for me there are that a) we can and are making strides to use increasingly renewable energy and b) power stations offer far better efficiency than ICE's can dream of. So as things stand, I still love petrol engines but I'm fascinated to see where things are heading. There are some amazing possibilities.

I'll be honest, as a car nut, EV's look to be the best of both worlds. Economical driving combined with silly performance when you need it, thats what interests me.

 

[gad-westy]

I was the same and looked at the BMW i3 - I wasn't keen on the Nissan styling and Teslas are just stupid money. The other thing to note is that the Warranty on the Batteries are 8 years after which you are on your own! No thanks EV at least after 8 years you still have an engine with ICE!

Even as an ex-owner, I will admit the Nissan's looks are an acquired taste. Though not a taste I ever actually came to acquire myself.

The 8 year battery warranty sounds brilliant to me. Most ICE cars, you're on your own after 3 and there is far, far more to go wrong or wear out.

That said, I think in 8 years time, this first generation of EV's might be pretty undesirable and low value if range and charging capacities carry on increasing at the rate they currently are.

 

[Overexposed]

I'll be honest, as a car nut, EV's look to be the best of both worlds. Economical driving combined with silly performance when you need it, thats what interests me.

I want to like EV it but its not there yet as it wont fit my usage and it might be a while yet! Its still too much of a compromise and if you need to travel good distances it just doesn't work. there's also the Hydrogen Cell.....................................

 

[Byker28i]

there's also the Hydrogen Cell.....................................

Fire and toxic fumes replaced with a big bang in a crash?

 

[gad-westy]

I want to like EV it but its not there yet as it wont fit my usage and it might be a while yet! Its still too much of a compromise and if you need to travel good distances it just doesn't work. there's also the Hydrogen Cell.....................................

Hydrogen fuel cells are very interesting but despite them having been played with for seemingly decades, it always seems just around the corner. Currently way behind the development curve compared to EV and by the time they get there, EV range might have made them obsolete before they've even started. I'm being a bit cynical I know, but I'm not sure what question those cars are going to answer any more.

 

[srichards]

I want to like EV it but its not there yet as it wont fit my usage and it might be a while yet! Its still too much of a compromise and if you need to travel good distances it just doesn't work. there's also the Hydrogen Cell.....................................

Hydrogen is a total joke. There are 13 hydrogen stations in the UK. Many of which are at universities so not even public access. The Mirai will do about 300 miles at an absolute push on hydrogen and it will cost you £50 odd to fill it. It's also £65k to buy. Or you could buy a Tesla that you can charge on your own driveway and is also £65k new or a lot less second hand...

There's only about 40-50 of them registered in the UK at all.

 

[Byker28i]

Hydrogen is a total joke. There are 13 hydrogen stations in the UK. Many of which are at universities so not even public access. The Mirai will do about 300 miles at an absolute push on hydrogen and it will cost you £50 odd to fill it. It's also £65k to buy. Or you could buy a Tesla that you can charge on your own driveway and is also £65k new or a lot less second hand...

There's only about 40-50 of them registered in the UK at all.

£65K is the base price for the 70D, it's very easy to get it up towards 90k for the S but yes I get your point

 

[Nod]

All you have quoted is your perceptions and predictions, not hard evidence. But your perception of 80% battery life after 6 years is garbage backed up by the fact that no manufacturer will guarantee batteries over 8 years old. No doubt they will get better with time but the early generation EVs will be worth little when you have to pay £4k for a new battery for a Nissan( your figures). Like I said before EV needs to mature and the comments about chargers, queues and lack of infrastructure back this up even on this thread.

Tesla's 8 year warranty is for the battery to still have 70% capacity rather than for it to crap out completely. What's the longest UK ICE warranty? Kia's 7 year seems to be the best.

 

[Overexposed]

Tesla's 8 year warranty is for the battery to still have 70% capacity rather than for it to crap out completely. What's the longest UK ICE warranty? Kia's 7 year seems to be the best.

You're comparing a Kia with a Tesla?

 

[nilagin]

18k service interval is quite standard these days isn't it? But for EV, if I DIY my cabin filter change and brake fluid change, there's absolutely nothing else needs doing! How is this not superior from ownership point of view? Less time spent looking after the car, more time spent actually driving the car.

No 18k service intervals aren't standard.
Unless your car is outside the manufacturer warranty period, your car will still need to be serviced by a vat registered garage at the required intervals or you will be in breach of warranty and the manufacturer will be less likely to honour any claims. There is a great deal more to a service than brake fluid and pollen filter change.

 

[gad-westy]

You're comparing a Kia with a Tesla?

It’s an even worse comparison if you compare Tesla to its more natural rivals.

 

[Nod]

You're comparing a Kia with a Tesla?

No. I'm comparing Kia's warranty with Tesla's warranty. The best warranties for the respective technologies that sprang to mind.

 

[nilagin]

Our 24kW was dog slow on paper but there is a lot to be said for instantaneous torque in cut and thrust traffic around town. Because almost nobody ever drives an ICE car in the manner thats used to achieve 0-60 times, the instant shove in the 0-20/30 mph sort of range meant that a Leaf is never going to be bullied at junctions etc

Bosch make alternators that double as electric motors for mild hybrid cars. Imagine an additional 100Nm of torque from 1200rpm, that could be 200Nm +. EV 's won't have it all their own way.

 

[PaulF]

No 18k service intervals aren't standard.
Unless your car is outside the manufacturer warranty period, your car will still need to be serviced by a vat registered garage at the required intervals or you will be in breach of warranty and the manufacturer will be less likely to honour any claims. There is a great deal more to a service than brake fluid and pollen filter change.

They may not be standard, but they are pretty common especially for those doing a lot of motorway miles. Three out of my last four cars have all been around the 20k mark for servicing.

 

[Byker28i]

Mazda 6 is every 12500 miles of every year, which ever comes first
TVR is serviced every year, not matter what the mileage (usually less than 5k)

 

[PaulF]

Again, I don't understand why do you have to replace the battery after 8 years?

It's like wanting to replace the ICE after warranty runs out and say "it no longer do its rated economy so it needs to be replaced!"

I don't think anyone is suggesting that once the battery is out of warranty you will rush out to replace it.
The point is, it's £4k plus to replace once it degrades enough to be next to useless and no one, and I do mean no one, is going to take a nine year old EV off your hands when the battery is only good for 50% of its new performance as that nine year old car is suddenly very expensive.
The comparison to the ICE economy or MPG is not really valid, if an ICE does 5 miles less per gallon than the 45 mpg it started with it's not going to stop it being used, it'll knock 50 miles off the tank of fuel so instead of doing 600 miles between fill ups it'll do 550 miles, if an EV has 40-50% less range than it started with it quickly becomes not fit for purpose, any purpose bar being a statue in the driveway.

If an ICE car has an issue out of warranty an awful lot of the parts can be replaced at a fraction of the cost of an EV battery. Not sure any single component on an ICE cost that much, no doubt somebody in the motor trade can confirm that. Therefore more viable to keep going.

 

[wave01]

I think a good pair of walking shoes is the way forward as I am sure in a few years they will be tell us electric is causing pollution with the disposal of the batteries. So everybody will have to walk and if you need to get there quickly run.

 

[ianp5a]

Yeah. Who would have guessed Diesel engines were polluting.

 

[swanseamale47]

My son used to do what is a five mile journey, in a car or on a bike, but on a bus, 3 changes and 10 miles later, it was actually quicker for him to walk!
( and he did several times)


For many its the only realistic option. ( as above)

Theres a route near me, it's only about 3 miles direct but the bus takes such a roundabout route it's quicker to walk it. Then they wonder why people aren't catching the buses.

 

[swanseamale47]

Ok, I've skipped a few pages of this thread on my phone but I have a question.
With people mentioning the Tesla infrastructure of chargers and maybe Ford and other manufacturers investing in a charger infrastructure of some sort, is it the case that theses chargers can only be used with thier make of car? Surely they have a common connector type.

Charging electric cars is going to be a big problem. Many houses only have on street parking, so you cant run a cable out, even if you could half the time you cant get near your house to plug it in. Then theres the people in flats and appartments. You'd need some system for visitors to be able to recharge, then when your on holiday, or at the services, just go to a motorway service area and see how many are refueling, then try to work out how and where they'd all park for a few hours to top up a battery, keeping in mind a petrol or diesel will go about 300 miles or more on a tank (most electric cars I've looked at are good for about 130 max on a charge) Thats before we get to the issue of generating capacity, which we are very close to now.

 

[ianp5a]

Charging electric cars is going to be a big problem. Many houses only have on street parking, so you cant run a cable out, even if you could half the time you cant get near your house to plug it in. Then theres the people in flats and appartments. You'd need some system for visitors to be able to recharge, then when your on holiday, or at the services, just go to a motorway service area and see how many are refueling, then try to work out how and where they'd all park for a few hours to top up a battery, keeping in mind a petrol or diesel will go about 300 miles or more on a tank (most electric cars I've looked at are good for about 130 max on a charge) Thats before we get to the issue of generating capacity, which we are very close to now.

You realise that when every car is electric, and these problems are a thing of the past you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

 

[Phil V]

You’re funny

The comparison to the ICE economy or MPG is not really valid, if an ICE does 5 miles less per gallon than the 45 mpg it started with it's not going to stop it being used, it'll knock 50 miles off the tank of fuel so instead of doing 600 miles between fill ups it'll do 550 miles, if an EV has 40-50% less range than it started with it quickly becomes not fit for purpose, any purpose bar being a statue in the driveway.

So you can compare a 10% reduction in ICE to a 50% reduction in an EV and hope that no one notices.

If an ICE car has an issue out of warranty an awful lot of the parts can be replaced at a fraction of the cost of an EV battery. Not sure any single component on an ICE cost that much, no doubt somebody in the motor trade can confirm that. Therefore more viable to keep going.

But an ICE vehicle has thousands more moving parts, ergo thousands more potential points of failure. And there are many £10 part failures that cost hundreds or thousands in labour costs. Or even simply a £10 part that fails and creates catastrophic damage.

But... feel free

 

[Nod]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that once the battery is out of warranty you will rush out to replace it.
The point is, it's £4k plus to replace once it degrades enough to be next to useless and no one, and I do mean no one, is going to take a nine year old EV off your hands when the battery is only good for 50% of its new performance as that nine year old car is suddenly very expensive.
The comparison to the ICE economy or MPG is not really valid, if an ICE does 5 miles less per gallon than the 45 mpg it started with it's not going to stop it being used, it'll knock 50 miles off the tank of fuel so instead of doing 600 miles between fill ups it'll do 550 miles, if an EV has 40-50% less range than it started with it quickly becomes not fit for purpose, any purpose bar being a statue in the driveway.

If an ICE car has an issue out of warranty an awful lot of the parts can be replaced at a fraction of the cost of an EV battery. Not sure any single component on an ICE cost that much, no doubt somebody in the motor trade can confirm that. Therefore more viable to keep going.

Even a battery with 25% left will be plenty for the school run or nipping down to town FOR US (no school run but a fair few nips to town or the shops). Far better than the current option that does mid 20s to the gallon on this sort of trip.

Most people will charge at home overnight when there's some headroom left in the current distribution system. Not ideal for those who can only street park at the moment but when/if the infrastructure is improved to service EVs, there should be plenty of charge points available (and yes, should be and will be are often very different beasts!)

 

[srichards]

Petrol cars can't be filled up at home but somehow it's ok even with millions of them. I'd think EVs will prove to be less bother rather than more. I can fill an EV while I'm doing something else. I can't do that with a petrol car.

 

[Nod]

My wife can - she just lends me her car and says "By the way, it could do with some petrol." (Joking! She feeds her cat, I feed mine. She also keeps the s***box fuelled up but I do all the bikes [well, they're mine, after all!])

 

[Cobra]

Then they wonder why people aren't catching the buses.

Perhaps they'll have to, when their electric cars run out of juice

Who else remembers seeing electric milk floats being towed back to the depot or on the back of a tow truck ?
OK so I guess things may have moved on since then as I've not seen a "Dead one" in years, but then again the guy that delivers around here has a small "open sided" van

 

[ianp5a]

They're all at it

https://www.morgan-motor.co.uk/ev3/

 

[PaulF]

You’re funny

So you can compare a 10% reduction in ICE to a 50% reduction in an EV and hope that no one notices.



But an ICE vehicle has thousands more moving parts, ergo thousands more potential points of failure. And there are many £10 part failures that cost hundreds or thousands in labour costs. Or even simply a £10 part that fails and creates catastrophic damage.

But... feel free

Phil, I will openly admit I'm no expert on EV cars, learning a little here

But, I don't know of any ICE car to reduce it's mpg by 50%. Certainly none of my many cars over the last 30 years have done so, have any of yours?

Now, according to someone above the Tesla warranty for the battery only kicks in after it goes below 70% within the warranty so that seems to be an accepted level of reduction from one of the more advanced manufacturers so seems reasonable to assume that once out of warranty the battery/batteries will reduce further. They will reduce, that's a known condition of this type of battery.

I believe that once a battery in the EV cars has lost some capacity it's not likely to regain that capacity, or put another way it's on a constant downward cycle. If an ICE car loses some mpg then usually a quick tune up sorts that right out.

In conclusion, comparing a known outcome, batteries degrade permanently and a temporary and easily remedied loss of ICE efficiency seems fair enough.

Yes, there are more parts in an ICE than an Electric Motor, not sure how many but going back over the years I have never had an engine part replaced that cost more than £460 (turbo on an Audi) and that was just once. They make these modern engines quite well now, they've had a lot of practice.
Provided the ICE is kept serviced it should be good for 150-200k easily, can't see one battery lasting that long at the moment.

Out of interested, do the EV motors need any maintenance at all?
I used to race electric RC cars and we were using a motor lathe before every meeting and at least once during the meet, that was to get peek performance though.

 

[Overexposed]

You’re funny

So you can compare a 10% reduction in ICE to a 50% reduction in an EV and hope that no one notices.



But an ICE vehicle has thousands more moving parts, ergo thousands more potential points of failure. And there are many £10 part failures that cost hundreds or thousands in labour costs. Or even simply a £10 part that fails and creates catastrophic damage.

But... feel free

The 10% reduction in an ICE vehicle is due to age and it will still go a damn site further than an EV with a battery running at 50% capacity and continuing to degrade til its worthless and with a bill in the case of the early gen EVs to replace the battery of more than the car will be worth. I'd say a 10% reduction in Ice becomes pretty irrelevant in those circumstances!
an Ev can also go wrong as the motor and charging system are not immune from failure and its a lot easier to replace a £10 ICE part than having to get towed into an EV specialist

 

[Phil V]

The 10% reduction in an ICE vehicle is due to age and it will still go a damn site further than an EV with a battery running at 50% capacity and continuing to degrade til its worthless and with a bill in the case of the early gen EVs to replace the battery of more than the car will be worth. I'd say a 10% reduction in Ice becomes pretty irrelevant in those circumstances!
an Ev can also go wrong as the motor and charging system are not immune from failure and its a lot easier to replace a £10 ICE part than having to get towed into an EV specialist

You’re comparing an emerging technology to a very mature one.

How do you think critics of petrol cars sounded 100 years ago? This is literally the opening chapter and you’re writing it off as a failure.

 

[Overexposed]

You’re comparing an emerging technology to a very mature one.

How do you think critics of petrol cars sounded 100 years ago? This is literally the opening chapter and you’re writing it off as a failure.

Im not writing it off at all, i'm saying EV technology is not yet ready to take over from ICE. Modern petrol engines are cleaner and more fuel efficient than they have ever been and certainly much more user friendly than any EV. EVs are great for short city commuting where there is the infrastructure and demand for what is a pretty narrow mode of transport with very poor range.The early generation EVs will be worth nothing when their batteries die - hardly a green solution! EVs will get there but not yet and certainly not outside the major conurbations..

 

[Phil V]

Im not writing it off at all, i'm saying EV technology is not yet ready to take over from ICE. Modern petrol engines are cleaner and more fuel efficient than they have ever been and certainly much more user friendly than any EV. EVs are great for short city commuting where there is the infrastructure and demand for what is a pretty narrow mode of transport with very poor range.The early generation EVs will be worth nothing when their batteries die - hardly a green solution! EVs will get there but not yet and certainly not outside the major conurbations..

Not ready yet!
At a time when tech improves at an exhilarating rate. So we agree.

 

[jamesev]

Im not writing it off at all, i'm saying EV technology is not yet ready to take over from ICE. Modern petrol engines are cleaner and more fuel efficient than they have ever been and certainly much more user friendly than any EV. EVs are great for short city commuting where there is the infrastructure and demand for what is a pretty narrow mode of transport with very poor range.The early generation EVs will be worth nothing when their batteries die - hardly a green solution! EVs will get there but not yet and certainly not outside the major conurbations..

The take over or cross over point is about 5 years off

 

[Phil V]

Yes, there are more parts in an ICE than an Electric Motor, not sure how many but going back over the years I have never had an engine part replaced that cost more than £460 (turbo on an Audi) and that was just once. They make these modern engines quite well now, they've had a lot of practice.

You’re clearly driving newer cars than I have in the past.

I’ve had 2 four figure garage bills, and I had a mate whose Porsche cost over 5 grand in one garage visit.

But the lots of practice thing is telling, as above, we’re discussing a very new technology.

 

[PaulF]

You’re clearly driving newer cars than I have in the past.

I’ve had 2 four figure garage bills, and I had a mate whose Porsche cost over 5 grand in one garage visit.

But the lots of practice thing is telling, as above, we’re discussing a very new technology.

These days maybe, oldest car I've had in the last 10 years or so has been about 5 years when I've changed. All had 100k plus miles though,, but I did have an Audi coupe many years ago that I kept for about 11 years. Kept it serviced regularly and never had an issue with it. Biggest bill was for the clutch in that at about 105k miles.

My father never used to service any car at all and he wondered why all the old bangers he had conked out within 3 years!

 

[Diving Pete]

I had a 2.2D accord for the last 6 years. Hated it & was going to drive it into the ground although it never let me down & only cost me £200 in parts in the whole 6 years (had to replace both rear brake calipers).
It got written off at xmas whilst I was out of the country - drunk driver crashed into it so went looking for another vehicle.

Because I don't do that many miles now I bought an old 2006 Audi Quattro - Petrol

The mpg is just over 1/2 from the diesel but at least I now enjoy driving it...
I dont see me going back any time soon.

 

[cosmicma]

something worth watching if you get the chance

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/