Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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MatBin said:
I beg to differ, when every house in the street plugs in for a charge that won take 24+ hrs to get the cars back to 100% the local infrastructure wont cope, the main substation fuse will blow (a well known fact). If we all plug in via a standard 13amp plug (for a slow charge) we wont have a fully charged car in the morning if it was almost flat the night before.
The infrastructure isnt in place, especially if you live in a flat in a city, which is where the supposed sales are coming from, or a road full of terraced houses where wires will be draped all over the footpath tripping up pedestrians and/or wheel chair users. Pie in the sky stuff.
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Just to pick up on one point. The average UK daily mileage is around 20 miles per car and falling. It's highly unlikely (though not impossible) that you'd have an entire sub station's worth of emtpy battery's to charge every night or any night. But yes, clearly there are still hurdles to overcome.
 
MatBin said:
I beg to differ, when every house in the street plugs in for a charge that won take 24+ hrs to get the cars back to 100% the local infrastructure wont cope, the main substation fuse will blow (a well known fact). If we all plug in via a standard 13amp plug (for a slow charge) we wont have a fully charged car in the morning if it was almost flat the night before.
The infrastructure isnt in place, especially if you live in a flat in a city, which is where the supposed sales are coming from, or a road full of terraced houses where wires will be draped all over the footpath tripping up pedestrians and/or wheel chair users. Pie in the sky stuff.
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Thats ok, because at the moment it seems we need to have buy solar install with storage, a house with a driveway, then the EV. You need to do a lot of miles to payback that outlay :D
 
gad-westy said:
Just to pick up on one point. The average UK daily mileage is around 20 miles per car and falling. It's highly unlikely (though not impossible) that you'd have an entire sub station's worth of emtpy battery's to charge every night or any night. But yes, clearly there are still hurdles to overcome.
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22 miles apparently, which at 3 miles per kw/h is within 1 hours charge at 7Kw rate. Fine for now because mileage is low, EV car ownership is low and fits fine into the "Every things great" camp

But we're trying to look forward to get EV have more uptake. The cars are starting to come with more range, so can do 100 miles a day, have 50-30% of charge left after that, so I'd expect that would be the next uptake, those commuting 100 miles or less, because thats got real cost savings rather than the tiny local journeys.

At that point you'd use 5 times more time/power to charge, 30-35Kw so 5 hours of charge overnight.

With a serious uptake and say everyone plugged in a 6pm, but delayed until 11pm for the cheap rate, thats a much bigger peak load on local infrastructure. We know smart chargers are on the way, imagine leaving for work at 7am to find your local company turned down charge rate, or delayed it further because of loading.
 
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nilagin said:
Read what I have said again. (My info as already pointed out comes from someone with at least 10yrs experience working in EV and hybrid system development) . The degrading cells are recharged first until they receive the maximum character can now hold, then the healthier cells recharge. It isn't a case of either / or. All cells receive the exact same number of recharge cycles.
If the recharge system works as you suggest, then replacing the degraded cells only will mean the cells that were once the healthier cells will now degrade more rapidly and another trip to the dealership is now required to have those cells replaced. You then find yourself making more frequent trips to have cells exchanged because the degradation isn't controlled.
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You read what you've posted again:
When charging, cells A B C have 40%, 45% and 50% charge left. In order to charge all to 100%, A will have to take in 60% charge, B 55% and C 50%. Over time, that 10% difference will become multiple extra charge cycles, degrading this further.

I'm not sure how you can control cell degradation........

Also, are you sure degraded cells get charged to 100% first?
 
Byker28i said:
22 miles apparently, which at 3 miles per kw/h is within 1 hours charge at 7Kw rate. Fine for now because mileage is low, EV car ownership is low and fits fine into the "Every things great" camp

But we're trying to look forward to get EV have more uptake. The cars are starting to come with more range, so can do 100 miles a day, have 50-30% of charge left after that, so I'd expect that would be the next uptake, those commuting 100 miles or less, because thats got real cost savings rather than the tiny local journeys.

At that point you'd use 5 times more time/power to charge, 30-35Kw so 5 hours of charge overnight.

With a serious uptake and say everyone plugged in a 6pm, but delayed until 11pm for the cheap rate, thats a much bigger peak load on local infrastructure. We know smart chargers are on the way, imagine leaving for work at 7am to find your local company turned down charge rate, or delayed it further because of loading.
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Yes but that's projected future EV usage some years down the line but referencing today's infrastructure. I'd expect to see some serious development take place on both sides of the equation, not just the cars. And if the infrastructure didn't improve, people wouldn't buy EV's so the problem would never happen. That's my view of it at least.
 
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gad-westy said:
Yes but that's projected future EV usage some years down the line but referencing today's infrastructure. I'd expect to see some serious development take place on both sides of the equation, not just the cars. And if the infrastructure didn't improve, people wouldn't buy EV's so the problem would never happen. That's my view of it at least.
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And if UK history tells us anything if people dont buy EVs or whatever the infrastructure wont be put in place, chicken and egg and I'm really not sure that the future is home charged EV. We need a clean fuel we can replace at a petrol station or similar in 10/15 minutes per week maximum before there's a consumer led move away from what we have now.
 
MatBin said:
And if UK history tells us anything if people dont buy EVs or whatever the infrastructure wont be put in place, chicken and egg and I'm really not sure that the future is home charged EV. We need a clean fuel we can replace at a petrol station or similar in 10/15 minutes per week maximum before there's a consumer led move away from what we have now.
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Yes, but governments are now putting serious pressure on the manufacturers to move this way. The UK almost looks lenient in this regard compared to other European countries. In turn, the manufacturers are pumping huge amounts of money into this now. We've had Tesla making a bit of noise for a few years now but serious cogs are now turning with the big players and £billions are being invested. So which one is the chicken and which is the egg I don't know but if money is flooding in on one side of the equation, there is plenty of money to be made on the other side. I'd be very surprised if private or indeed public industry doesn't capitalise on that. You might be right though, maybe it won't be home charging, maybe the real investment will be on the public charging side of things, not sure but I think we'll be looking at a very different outlook in 5 years time or so.
 
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Battery technology is probably the way forward.
Todays Li-on used are only 50% efficient, they can be pushed to be almost twice as good by overloading the cathode with more Lithium, but then they lose charge too quickly because of the changes in the atomic structure.
That radio 4 program was an interesting scientific explanation of how they are working to manipulate the atomic structure of supercharged cathodes, so the battery doesn’t lose voltage during the charge/discharge cycle.

Then you've Samsung looking at graphene balls coating on the cathode, which according to them, the new battery cell apparently possesses a “better energy density at 60°C (444 Wh/kg) than at 25°C (370 Wh/kg), making the use of a TMS (Thermal Management System) dispensable. Charging at 5°C, means that a battery can be charged from 0% to 80% in slightly less than 10 minutes. Furthermore, a volumetric energy density of 800 Wh/L means that an electric car like the Renault Zoe could have a 75 kWh battery and a realistic range of 500 km. Given that the battery capacity retention is 78.6% after 500 cycles at 5°C and 60°C, a 500 km range becomes 400 km after 250,000 km (500 cycles).”

There's a really detailed paper on it - but it's all greek/chemistry to me :D but new battery technology, making the batteries more efficient, so smaller for the same power, or the same size with twice the power (longer range), with short charging times
 
wuyanxu said:
You read what you've posted again:
When charging, cells A B C have 40%, 45% and 50% charge left. In order to charge all to 100%, A will have to take in 60% charge, B 55% and C 50%. Over time, that 10% difference will become multiple extra charge cycles, degrading this further.

I'm not sure how you can control cell degradation........

Also, are you sure degraded cells get charged to 100% first?
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Let's start at the beginning with a brand new battery. Although all new there is a likelihood that some cells will degrade at at a faster rate than others. To slow the degradation and even try to even it out with the healthier cells in the pack, the charge is diverted to the degraded cells first, as they reach their now maximum charge capacity, the charge is then sent to the healthier cells. If they all recharge at the same time, it has been found that the weaker cells don't recharge fully and increases the degradation.
A degraded cell can't get charged to 100% because it is degraded, it just charges to the maximum of It's degraded ability.
Each cell get's recharged the same number of times. If you allow some cells to degrade at a faster rate than others and then just replace the worst ones, the best ones then become the worst and will need to be replaced soon after, meaning a second visit to the dealer and a 2nd labour charge which is false economy for the vehicle owner, great for the dealer though as he makes more money.
You may as well liken it to people who put £5 of petrol in their tank every day instead of going once in a while and just fill the tank up.
 
Byker28i said:
22 miles apparently,
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How do they come by that figure though. I have never given anyone an exact indication of my mileage. You can't use MOT mileage because of people owning more than one car, having MOT exempt vehicles, vehicles less than 3yrs old so Don't require an MOT etc.
 
nilagin said:
Let's start at the beginning with a brand new battery. Although all new there is a likelihood that some cells will degrade at at a faster rate than others. To slow the degradation and even try to even it out with the healthier cells in the pack, the charge is diverted to the degraded cells first, as they reach their now maximum charge capacity, the charge is then sent to the healthier cells. If they all recharge at the same time, it has been found that the weaker cells don't recharge fully and increases the degradation.
A degraded cell can't get charged to 100% because it is degraded, it just charges to the maximum of It's degraded ability.
Each cell get's recharged the same number of times. If you allow some cells to degrade at a faster rate than others and then just replace the worst ones, the best ones then become the worst and will need to be replaced soon after, meaning a second visit to the dealer and a 2nd labour charge which is false economy for the vehicle owner, great for the dealer though as he makes more money.
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It's all to do with internal resistance. Cells gain more internal resistance as they degrade. The capacitance doesn't change, the power it delivers decreases as internal resistance builds up. But all these are stored and managed by the BMS.

I have seen Prius battery getting disassembled, degraded cells replaced and battery capacity somewhat restored. This is why I believe simpler EV like a Leaf (without liquid cooling) should be able to do the same. For older vehicles, this is certainly better than a whole new battery.



Regarding keeping the petrol station for fuel cell vehicles. I don't believe fuel cell is the answer: https://insideevs.com/hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-compared-electric-cars-video/
Hydrogen-vs-EV-redlight.jpg
 
jamesev said:
torque comparisons probably very different though
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144 lbft 196 Nm. at 2,750rpm for me. Should be enough to pull the skin off the M5! Only about 150 shire horses though.
 
Went for the test drive last night of the new Nissan leaf last night rather than today.
Styling is a lot better than the old car, boot is bigger although still has a huge lip to it. Interior is very nice, feels well designed and there's lots of toys.

Driving it, the e pedel is strange at first, but then I don't have an automatic but you soon get used to it. Regen braking is strong so I can see if it's a town car there wouldnt be much use of braking. That works very well around town driving.
Performance, 0-60 was about the same as my Mazda 6 diesel turbo so about 8.5 secs but after that it slowed on the pulling. On the 1.5 mile dual carriageway it got upto 82 and was still increasing slowly
That ate the battery power.
On the tiny motorway run, you're still going to do this at 70, it's where it's happiest for speed/power consumption, although the uphill bit took a bit more power. As with the old model, dropping back to 60mph looked like giving best range. I managed to eat a fair bit of battery on the test drive but I was playing.
Cornering etc, it's not meant for this, theres quite a bit of understeer if you try to carry speed. It's designed for economy, careful driving. Do this and the ride is very comfortable.

So the new Nissan Leaf Tekna, works out at a shade under £28500, which works out at almost £6500 down, £1000 from nissan, then 36 monthly payments of £349
Just over £10,700 to pay at the end of the period, all this based on 10,000 miles/ They'll throw in a free 7Kw charging station if you order before 2nd April 2018, however there's a 3-4 month wait for the car if I spec it.

It's moved on a lot from the old model, good signs including the bigger battery, but not for me, not at that cost/performance.
 
Byker28i said:
Went for the test drive last night of the new Nissan leaf last night rather than today.
Styling is a lot better than the old car, boot is bigger although still has a huge lip to it. Interior is very nice, feels well designed and there's lots of toys.

Driving it, the e pedel is strange at first, but then I don't have an automatic but you soon get used to it. Regen braking is strong so I can see if it's a town car there wouldnt be much use of braking. That works very well around town driving.
Performance, 0-60 was about the same as my Mazda 6 diesel turbo so about 8.5 secs but after that it slowed on the pulling. On the 1.5 mile dual carriageway it got upto 82 and was still increasing slowly
That ate the battery power.
On the tiny motorway run, you're still going to do this at 70, it's where it's happiest for speed/power consumption, although the uphill bit took a bit more power. As with the old model, dropping back to 60mph looked like giving best range. I managed to eat a fair bit of battery on the test drive but I was playing.
Cornering etc, it's not meant for this, theres quite a bit of understeer if you try to carry speed. It's designed for economy, careful driving. Do this and the ride is very comfortable.

So the new Nissan Leaf Tekna, works out at a shade under £28500, which works out at almost £6500 down, £1000 from nissan, then 36 monthly payments of £349
Just over £10,700 to pay at the end of the period, all this based on 10,000 miles/ They'll throw in a free 7Kw charging station if you order before 2nd April 2018, however there's a 3-4 month wait for the car if I spec it.

It's moved on a lot from the old model, good signs including the bigger battery, but not for me, not at that cost/performance.
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This is what I do like about car buying. You quote it’s a £28500 car but a quick add up infers it’s £30,764.

Is this potentially why the inferred cost of EVs are so high?
 
@Byker28i Check out Drive Electric and consider leasing one. It's cheaper and some of the lease companies let you buy the car either at the end of the deal or even any time after a first fixed time.

https://www.drive-electric.co.uk/vehicles/nissan-leaf-n-connecta-40kwh-48month-lease/

Pretty certain you can add pro pilot to the n connecta spec car. Waiting times are also a bit shorter for the non teknas as there is some issue with the leather seats in those that is delaying them.

Last I heard was that the Tekna is now a 10 month wait.
 
jamesev said:
This is what I do like about car buying. You quote it’s a £28500 car but a quick add up infers it’s £30,764.

Is this potentially why the inferred cost of EVs are so high?
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4.49% APR makes up the rest
 
[QUOTE="srichards, post: 8109303, member: 32053"
Last I heard was that the Tekna is now a 10 month wait.[/QUOTE]


September if you order a Tekna now, which you'd want for the free home 7Kw charger.
I went because I was interested. It's not yet a car for us but they are slowy coming towards the parameters I'd want met.
 
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Battery swap isn't the answer either. If you had looked after your battery through regular full discharge and never let it set at 100% for long periods. But during one road trip, you do the battery swap and receive a dud. You'd be pretty upset.

350kW rapid charging will replenish 175 miles of range in 10min. 95% of the time you'd charge at home anyway. So for those 5% journey, a quick 10min stop and the car is ready for another 2-3 hours driving.


Good write-up of your first impression of the new Leaf. It's still not a motorway car due to high coefficient of drag and not quite big enough battery. This time round, Nissan is selling the car to make money, the PCP monthly payment is too high for what it is, especially compared to Kia Soul's £199 per month.
 
Until Premier Inns have charging points in their car parks, it’s petrol or diesel for me.
 
This thread is good but it is looking at cars. Our infrastructure is based on lorries moving up and down the country. How much pollutions are they giving out. I cannot see an electric lorry. There is so much that needs to be invented for want of a better phase before we go electric. The biggest is recharging. Until it matches stopping at fuel station and on your way in 10 minuets you are on a loser.
 
wuyanxu said:
350kW rapid charging will replenish 175 miles of range in 10min. 95% of the time you'd charge at home anyway. So for those 5% journey, a quick 10min stop and the car is ready for another 2-3 hours driving.
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It's only a 10 minute stop if there's no one else at the charging point.
 
wave01 said:
This thread is good but it is looking at cars. Our infrastructure is based on lorries moving up and down the country. How much pollutions are they giving out. I cannot see an electric lorry. There is so much that needs to be invented for want of a better phase before we go electric.
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There is a lot of work going into eTrucks. With Elon Musk having unveiled his one. A lot of freight is moved electrically already. On trains. Which is quite advanced in some countries. More needs to be done in the UK though.

wave01 said:
The biggest is recharging. Until it matches stopping at fuel station and on your way in 10 minuets you are on a loser.
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A large percentage of people with shorter commutes stand to save time by never needing to drive out of their way. And with charging points needing less infrastructure and investment than a petrol station, there will be more of them, at more convenient places. And they are less unsightly.
 
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lol!
 
ianp5a said:
A large percentage of people with shorter commutes stand to save time by never needing to drive out of their way.
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I doubt there are many people that don't pass at least one petrol station on their commute. Pulling onto and off the forecourt is hardly driving out of your way.
 
We don't.

When we get an EV, it'll be far more convenient to plug in overnight while the car's on the drive than it is to go to a fuel station. Not to mention far cleaner than dealing with a Diesel pump!
 
ianp5a said:
And with charging points needing less infrastructure and investment than a petrol station, there will be more of them, at more convenient places. And they are less unsightly.
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I would suggest that placing charging points in everyone's home will require enormously more investment and infrastructure than a petrol station serving 5,000+ cars/week. Not that I plan an EV at this stage, but I was idly wondering what it would cost to put a charging point at the bottom of my garden by our parking spaces, and suspect a number with three zeros at the end is likely.
 
ancient_mariner said:
I would suggest that placing charging points in everyone's home will require enormously more investment and infrastructure than a petrol station serving 5,000+ cars/week. Not that I plan an EV at this stage, but I was idly wondering what it would cost to put a charging point at the bottom of my garden by our parking spaces, and suspect a number with three zeros at the end is likely.
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The government grant is 75% of the ~ £800 total cost to install a home charging station. But some cars cover even that when you buy them. And prices will drop as the take up increases.
There is no staff to pay and no tanker lorries driving around.
 
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wuyanxu said:
Good write-up of your first impression of the new Leaf. It's still not a motorway car due to high coefficient of drag and not quite big enough battery. This time round, Nissan is selling the car to make money, the PCP monthly payment is too high for what it is, especially compared to Kia Soul's £199 per month.
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I could get a ford focus for £199 a month then I've £150 left over a month for fuel, no range issues.. Thats going to be the big point about getting EV's to go mainstream, is the cost
 
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