Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[ianp5a]

I could get a ford focus for £199 a month then I've £150 left over a month for fuel, no range issues.. Thats going to be the big point about getting EV's to go mainstream, is the cost

Yes. If an EV is cheaper, the psychological barriers in people's heads all fall away, as people start looking for solutions, where many now are clearly looking for problems.

As EV costs fall, the crossover point for costs gets closer. Some say it's a couple of years away. It's difficult to tell, as investments ramp up and technologies are advancing quickly.

 

[Cobra]

and no tanker lorries driving around.

I wan't aware the petrol, heating oil, red diesel for farm equipment / heavy construction "Crawlers" / et al was being banned.
Now there is a thought an electric 100 ton earth scraper !
Considering they are on site with no infrastructure I assume they be charged with massive diesel generators?
Or wait a week for them to charge on solar panels?

I've said it before its not been thought through, its an impracticable vote catcher.
OK so if people want to drive these little battery powered cars to go down the shops in city's fair enough.
But for most of the working population, transport industry, they are totally impracticable.

 

[nilagin]

So Ev's will put a lot of people out of work, add to that, I am willing to bet Ev's will increasingly get used for stupidly short journeys, where people could/should be walking and obesity and strain on the nhs will get worse.

Thankfully Ev's and hybrids are still rare on the roads and I don't have to encounter them that often at the moment, but when I do encounter them, the majority are being driven slowly and holding everyone up, probably just so they can get a bit more out of their battery, meanwhile the cars behind are wasting fuel as they are unable to change up a gear.

 

[MatBin]

Better than a TVR!!!

OMG Yes I'd buy one of those beauties and sod the range.

 

[wyx087]

So Ev's will put a lot of people out of work,

Oh no, we mustn't progress as a society because people will be out of work!
But where are the street lamp lighters these days?

Yes. If an EV is cheaper, the psychological barriers in people's heads all fall away, as people start looking for solutions, where many now are clearly looking for problems.

As EV costs fall, the crossover point for costs gets closer. Some say it's a couple of years away. It's difficult to tell, as investments ramp up and technologies are advancing quickly.

So true. Ownership cost of EV is already breaking even, sometimes cheaper depend on one's situation.

I could get a ford focus for £199 a month then I've £150 left over a month for fuel, no range issues.. Thats going to be the big point about getting EV's to go mainstream, is the cost

The Kia Sould EV can be had for £199 per month inc VAT: https://www.drive-electric.co.uk/vehicles/kia-soul-ev-lease/
The 2018 Leaf Tekna trim is a lot more advanced than a Focus, Only thing close to the standard feature ProPilot would be Tesla Autopilot. So naturally it is more expensive. I think the 2nd cheapest trim level Acenta is more comparible to a normal ICE car like the Focus.

I would suggest that placing charging points in everyone's home will require enormously more investment and infrastructure than a petrol station serving 5,000+ cars/week. Not that I plan an EV at this stage, but I was idly wondering what it would cost to put a charging point at the bottom of my garden by our parking spaces, and suspect a number with three zeros at the end is likely.

It was free for my install. Also, because it is charging overnight, it pulls less power than an electric shower, so no infrastructure upgrade is needed.

 

[nilagin]

Oh no, we mustn't progress as a society because people will be out of work!
But where are the street lamp lighters these days?


So true. Ownership cost of EV is already breaking even, sometimes cheaper depend on one's situation.


The Kia Sould EV can be had for £199 per month inc VAT: https://www.drive-electric.co.uk/vehicles/kia-soul-ev-lease/
The 2018 Leaf Tekna trim is a lot more advanced than a Focus, Only thing close to the standard feature ProPilot would be Tesla Autopilot. So naturally it is more expensive. I think the 2nd cheapest trim level Acenta is more comparible to a normal ICE car like the Focus.


It was free for my install. Also, because it is charging overnight, it pulls less power than an electric shower, so no infrastructure upgrade is needed.

How many people would have been employed to light street lamps? There are a hell of a lot more people who work in selling fuel, delivering it, refining it, etc. The infrastructure for refining, delivering and selling petrol and diesel is already there.

 

[AJQS]

How many people would have been employed to light street lamps? There are a hell of a lot more people who work in selling fuel, delivering it, refining it, etc. The infrastructure for refining, delivering and selling petrol and diesel is already there.

Too bad the oil itself won't be around much longer to refine.

 

[nilagin]

Too bad the oil itself won't be around much longer to refine.

Around 50yrs left. With hybrids being a better proposition The amount of time to actually use it could be doubled or even trebled.

 

[ian-83]

I haven't read all the thread but at work I am training to be a hybrid/EV tech for VW, we currently are doing training which requires PPE recommend for 1000V.

Changing a battery on an electric vehicle isn't as simple as changing a 12 volt battery in a regular car, there is several safety steps and procedures to follow to make sure the high voltage system is correctly deactivated before working on it. Accidentally touching live and neutral would be the last thing anyone ever does!!

 

[MatBin]

I haven't read all the thread but at work I am training to be a hybrid/EV tech for VW, we currently are doing training which requires PPE recommend for 1000V.

Changing a battery on an electric vehicle isn't as simple as changing a 12 volt battery in a regular car, there is several safety steps and procedures to follow to make sure the high voltage system is correctly deactivated before working on it. Accidentally touching live and neutral would be the last thing anyone ever does!!

Then let us hope they make it impossible to do at home, as you can be sure some ham fisted DIY numpty will give it a try.

 

[MatBin]

It was free for my install. Also, because it is charging overnight, it pulls less power than an electric shower, so no infrastructure upgrade is needed.

http://fes.nationalgrid.com/insights/forecourt-thoughts-mass-fast-charging-of-electric-vehicles/

Not for a single or even perhaps a couple of home chargers connected to the sub station but start to get more than a few and things get messy. Add in large capacity extended range batteries requiring 20kw chargers to enable a reasonable charge time and your 60w home fuse will blow.

 

[viv1969]

Then let us hope they make it impossible to do at home, as you can be sure some ham fisted DIY numpty will give it a try.

It's called natural selection.

 

[jamesev]

Yes. If an EV is cheaper, the psychological barriers in people's heads all fall away, as people start looking for solutions, where many now are clearly looking for problems.

As EV costs fall, the crossover point for costs gets closer. Some say it's a couple of years away. It's difficult to tell, as investments ramp up and technologies are advancing quickly.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k7k3Mzknm8

 

[wyx087]

http://fes.nationalgrid.com/insights/forecourt-thoughts-mass-fast-charging-of-electric-vehicles/

Not for a single or even perhaps a couple of home chargers connected to the sub station but start to get more than a few and things get messy. Add in large capacity extended range batteries requiring 20kw chargers to enable a reasonable charge time and your 60w home fuse will blow.

Any source in your 20kW charger claim?

EV charger installers will only install 7kW to single phase houses, they will refuse higher output charger without 3-phase. This single-phase speed means 49kWh of electricity in 7 hours, enough to drive more than 150 miles in winter (3 miles per kWh, I achieved 3.5m/kWh last few months), 200 miles or more in summer (4 miles per kWh).

For an electric-only flat substation, how many 9kW showers are connected? How many storage heaters are turned on at the same time over E7 hours? You are saying substations can't handle 2 additional electric heater per household increase? How did we manage 2 weeks ago?

 

[Byker28i]

The Kia Sould EV can be had for £199 per month inc VAT: https://www.drive-electric.co.uk/vehicles/kia-soul-ev-lease/
The 2018 Leaf Tekna trim is a lot more advanced than a Focus, Only thing close to the standard feature ProPilot would be Tesla Autopilot. So naturally it is more expensive. I think the 2nd cheapest trim level Acenta is more comparible to a normal ICE car like the Focus.
.

Acenta is still £329 a month from nissan

 

[Byker28i]

Then let us hope they make it impossible to do at home, as you can be sure some ham fisted DIY numpty will give it a try.

We already had a volunteer

If I have a ramp and lifting equipment, I'd be happy to DIY this. But I wouldn't work on the dirty, oily ICE.

I've worked on three phase stuff, theres a complacency around battery technology

 

[Byker28i]

OMG Yes I'd buy one of those beauties and sod the range.

£350,000 for the jaguar e-type zero

 

[Byker28i]

http://fes.nationalgrid.com/insights/forecourt-thoughts-mass-fast-charging-of-electric-vehicles/

Not for a single or even perhaps a couple of home chargers connected to the sub station but start to get more than a few and things get messy. Add in large capacity extended range batteries requiring 20kw chargers to enable a reasonable charge time and your 60w home fuse will blow.

Modern houses have 100 amp fuses, my 30 year old house does however there are many houses with 60amp fuses The issue will be though on whether the installer will install a 32A charger or 16A charger

I've had my garage rewired with a 100A feed as it has two circuits for the garage and two for the cabin office, so I could put a charger in there, but before that it was fed on just a 30A cable. If thats common then thats a limiting factor but can have the 7Kw charger.

Any source in your 20kW charger claim?

EV charger installers will only install 7kW to single phase houses, they will refuse higher output charger without 3-phase. This single-phase speed means 49kWh of electricity in 7 hours, enough to drive more than 150 miles in winter (3 miles per kWh, I achieved 3.5m/kWh last few months), 200 miles or more in summer (4 miles per kWh).

For an electric-only flat substation, how many 9kW showers are connected? How many storage heaters are turned on at the same time over E7 hours? You are saying substations can't handle 2 additional electric heater per household increase? How did we manage 2 weeks ago?

You're making assumptions about ev charger efficiency, they are about 85% efficient because of the AC/DC convertor so it increases timescales. You done get 7Kw charge per hour but actually nearer 6kw.

I'll repeat what I've said 3 times already
Economy hours are midnight until 7am, if everyone gets an EV cars, or theres a significant increase, we've already spoken about smart charger development and how electricity companies expect to demand these are used so they can control and manage the load.
So, set your charging time to midnight onwards, but because everyones done that the charge rate is turned down or delayed and you lose the charge rate/time so your distance is reduced.
This isn't an issue currently but is expected to become an issue after ev car ownership goes over 40%. These are real figures from the electricity company who have looked at their infrastructure after the governments lates push.

Now you can plug in earlier, say 6pm when you get home, but at the point the oven is on (30A circuit) you've at least a 10A background loading with heating, lighting, etc, which with a 60A fuse in the house could be getting close, which I think is where Matt was coming from.

 

[jamesev]

I'll repeat what I've said 3 times already
Economy hours are midnight until 7am, if everyone gets an EV cars, or theres a significant increase, we've already spoken about smart charger development and how electricity companies expect to demand these are used so they can control and manage the load.

But of course Economy hours are such party to balance the system and encourage consumption of generation that would need to be otherwise constrained because generation > demand. Once storage (pity we don't have more pumped storage hydro) is more widespread this will flatten the generation requirement as any peaks above baseload will be absorbed into storage then any troughs under baseload will come from storage.

 

[Byker28i]

But of course Economy hours are such party to balance the system and encourage consumption of generation that would need to be otherwise constrained because generation > demand. Once storage (pity we don't have more pumped storage hydro) is more widespread this will flatten the generation requirement as any peaks above baseload will be absorbed into storage then any troughs under baseload will come from storage.

There is this - as EV cars become more mainstream then the loading changes which means that the electricity companies will have to look at how they provide power at different times.

Something else I was looking at
If you don't get a free charger with the car then it's another £1000 for a 7Kw charger to add to the bill

 

[jamesev]

There is this - as EV cars become more mainstream then the loading changes which means that the electricity companies will have to look at how they provide power at different times.

Something else I was looking at
If you don't get a free charger with the car then it's another £1000 for a 7Kw charger to add to the bill

Traditionally the peaks and troughs are somewhat seasonal (more lights go on earlier in winter) and based on TV pickups. It wouldn't be that difficult to adjust for electric vehicle pickup or the impact of storage. They already deal with self-use and back to the grid solar either giving negative demand or supply to and from the Grid.

The ideal would be to have a totally flat load of generation.

 

[wyx087]

Acenta is still £329 a month from nissan

And where is the £199 Ford Focus you speak of? What is the APR value? The Nissan finance APR is high at 4.5% because it is a popular car in demand.

Modern houses have 100 amp fuses, my 30 year old house does however there are many houses with 60amp fuses The issue will be though on whether the installer will install a 32A charger or 16A charger

You're making assumptions about ev charger efficiency, they are about 85% efficient because of the AC/DC convertor so it increases timescales. You done get 7Kw charge per hour but actually nearer 6kw.

I'll repeat what I've said 3 times already
Economy hours are midnight until 7am, if everyone gets an EV cars, or theres a significant increase, we've already spoken about smart charger development and how electricity companies expect to demand these are used so they can control and manage the load.
So, set your charging time to midnight onwards, but because everyones done that the charge rate is turned down or delayed and you lose the charge rate/time so your distance is reduced.
This isn't an issue currently but is expected to become an issue after ev car ownership goes over 40%. These are real figures from the electricity company who have looked at their infrastructure after the governments lates push.

Now you can plug in earlier, say 6pm when you get home, but at the point the oven is on (30A circuit) you've at least a 10A background loading with heating, lighting, etc, which with a 60A fuse in the house could be getting close, which I think is where Matt was coming from.

Dumb Economy 7 meters times are staggered to prevent sudden demand on the grid. Some people start at 11pm, some start at 1am. Everyone get 7 hours over the night. The key is to use the lower overall grid demand overnight.

Similarly, smart meters can do the same. I can see a future with per minute or even shorter electricity tariff. Everything will be tariff-aware. Your average kettle will have 3 settings: quick, normal or cheapest. Quick boils as quickly as possible, normal mode uses relatively lower tariffs over a slightly longer period, cheapest allows you to set a target tariff and only boil during those times. EV charging can work similarly, in fact, such chargers are already on the market to do exactly that for roof-top solar homes called Zappi.

As said, goal is to even out the grid's extremes using batteries and EV.

Even with 85% charging efficiency, that is still 126 miles of worst case range gained over 7 hours. If you really need the range EVERYDAY, currently you'll need to pay the higher tariff. In the future, similar to the kettle, the charger can be configured to guarantee cheapest charge while giving you a pre-set range, eg. in my case 60 miles at 7am. The more range you demand on a daily basis, the more likely tariffs you pay is higher.

Something else I was looking at
If you don't get a free charger with the car then it's another £1000 for a 7Kw charger to add to the bill

Weren't you looking at Nissan Leaf 40kWh? which includes a free 7kW charger.

7kW charger install costs £359 on top of government grant. Breakdown is around £500 for the charger and £359 for install. Without the grant, the chargers will be cheaper because frankly the charger I have on my wall isn't worth £500, it's a plastic box with very very basic electronics inside. The most expensive part is the cable (for a tethered unit) or the socket (untethered unit), the socket part only cost around £80 by itself. I think future install when the grant goes away will be around £500.

I had quotes done for a simple domestic 3-pin 3kW outdoors waterproof socket, with less distance from consumer unit, from an electrician. He wanted £250 to do the job.

 

[Byker28i]

And where is the £199 Ford Focus you speak of? What is the APR value? The Nissan finance APR is high at 4.5% because it is a popular car in demand.

Evans Halshaw, it's what we were offered when we were looking for a new car for my daughter. In the end we decided to buy a 3 year old corsa instead - because it was low mileage and just over £6K

Even with 85% charging efficiency, that is still 126 miles of worst case range gained over 7 hours. If you really need the range EVERYDAY, currently you'll need to pay the higher tariff. In the future, similar to the kettle, the charger can be configured to guarantee cheapest charge while giving you a pre-set range, eg. in my case 60 miles at 7am. The more range you demand on a daily basis, the more likely tariffs you pay is higher.

I think I'm just going to give up on this subject as you seem stuck in the now, not looking forward. We're talking about reducing pollution etc by increasing the number of EV's. Once they get over 40% ownership the infrastructure won't cope and they'll be restrictions, you won't get a 7 hour charge. With the limitation of a 7Kw charger at home, thats a limitation on range to make them more acceptable and increase the uptake.
The answer of course is better battery technology, smaller, lighter, faster charge time.

Weren't you looking at Nissan Leaf 40kWh? which includes a free 7kW charger.

Until 2nd April - after that it's not free, so stick your deposit down, get a free charger on a car thats not available until september, hence why I looked at the cost of chargers

 

[jamesev]

I think I'm just going to give up on this subject as you seem stuck in the now, not looking forward. We're talking about reducing pollution etc by increasing the number of EV's. Once they get over 40% ownership the infrastructure won't cope and they'll be restrictions, you won't get a 7 hour charge. With the limitation of a 7Kw charger at home, thats a limitation on range to make them more acceptable and increase the uptake.
The answer of course is better battery technology, smaller, lighter, faster charge time.

Do you have a source that says the future infrastructure won't cope?

 

[Nod]

Until 2nd April - after that it's not free, so stick your deposit down, get a free charger on a car thats not available until september, hence why I looked at the cost of chargers

Page 1 of Google threw up this lot who will install a 32A point for £199 (after Govt, subsidy). https://www.chargedev.co.uk/at-home

 

[wyx087]

Evans Halshaw, it's what we were offered when we were looking for a new car for my daughter. In the end we decided to buy a 3 year old corsa instead - because it was low mileage and just over £6K

I think I'm just going to give up on this subject as you seem stuck in the now, not looking forward. We're talking about reducing pollution etc by increasing the number of EV's. Once they get over 40% ownership the infrastructure won't cope and they'll be restrictions, you won't get a 7 hour charge. With the limitation of a 7Kw charger at home, thats a limitation on range to make them more acceptable and increase the uptake.
The answer of course is better battery technology, smaller, lighter, faster charge time.

Until 2nd April - after that it's not free, so stick your deposit down, get a free charger on a car thats not available until september, hence why I looked at the cost of chargers

I bet the Focus' APR is a lot lower than what Nissan finance is asking. So the PCP isn't really comparable.

Bold statements seem to be in contradiction. Everyone need to forget about 400 miles in a few minutes, you can recharge at home, the amount of time this takes no longer matter, it's far more convenience to plug-in rather than be route-restricted to drive pass a petrol state every few days.
The key to remember is amount of time to charge doesn't matter at home. Many retired people on SpeakEV have installed Zappi with great success. They only drive occasionally to the shops. Then come back and plug in. Zappi manages charging the car maximising solar panels. The speed and time of charging doesn't matter, same principle applies overnight.

On charger install charges, your £1000 figure completely out of thin air, you haven't really looked at the cost of chargers have you? The price I quoted was for Pod-point who has ties with Nissan (hence over charge). Cheapest OLEV grant charger is the highly regarded Rolec (due to its compact design) £149 for 7kW charger: http://www.rolecserv.com/ev-charging/product/OLEV-Grant-Funded-HomeCharge-Points

 

[Byker28i]

Do you have a source that says the future infrastructure won't cope?

yup - posted it somewhere earlier in this thread - there was a report from Scottish Power and southern power

The green alliance have a decent report, however their suggestion was a proposal for a new independent electricity network, separate from the current main network, operated by National Grid, to cope with demand.
I can't see there being the investment for that
http://www.green-alliance.org.uk/re...sumer_choice_is_changing_UK_energy_system.pdf

Electric nation about the loading on local circuits
http://www.electricnation.org.uk/about/the-project/

Then there's all the stuff about smart meters and talk of getting them installed now as a mandatory requirement.

theres also a bit in government studies that say:
The level of uptake in plug-in vehicles to 2020 is not expected to represent an issue for
the National Grid. Clustering of plug-in vehicles recharging in particular locations could
lead to the need for local grid reinforcement. ‘Smart’ solutions such as managing demand
around capacity availability may be able to reduce this need, and Government and Ofgem
are working to improve incentives for Distribution Network Operators (DNOs) and energy
suppliers to provide these. There is also potential to reduce local grid impacts of plug-in
vehicles where distributed generation is installed alongside plug-in vehicle charging

 

[srichards]

Grid storage is an obvious answer. It might also help reduce voltage variation so it's closer to the nominal voltage.

 

[Byker28i]

I bet the Focus' APR is a lot lower than what Nissan finance is asking. So the PCP isn't really comparable.

It's the monthly payment for a comparable car with a different engine, so is complete comparable. Which is something that needs overcoming, the price of the cars. Hopefully this will come down as the cars become more popular

Pod-Point want £359 from the owner with the rest paid for by the government

 

[MatBin]

I had quotes done for a simple domestic 3-pin 3kW outdoors waterproof socket, with less distance from consumer unit, from an electrician. He wanted £250 to do the job.

One of the car manufacturers (forget which one) suggested a 13a socket should only be used to charge the car in emergencies or rarely.
I googled infastructure coping with EV charging, my link above and the suppliers are really concerned thet the grid and local supplies will not be able to cope, especially when long range batteries become more "normal" (my inverted commas, not theirs).
Their suggestion was in their report we need petrol stations converted to do mass charging whilst people do their shopping as mass home charging is a non starter, their words not mine.

So perhaps one potential solution would be to build a few thousand super-fast charging forecourts of over 3 MW capacity rather than carry out a large scale rebuild of the domestic electricity infrastructure. It may well be that the charging from home option may not be in the long term interest of the consumers even with smart chargers. If you have any questions

 

[Mr Bump]

At the end of the day it will be up to the leccy companies to up their game.
I would love to be in the game for an EV but at 48 years old with a plan to reture at 55 to my house in Crete I can't really see me jumping on.

My 10 year old citroen will hopefully last a few more years (maybe) then a very cheap car will be bought to fill the gap, current thoughts are a skoda citigo.

 

[Byker28i]

Grid storage is an obvious answer. It might also help reduce voltage variation so it's closer to the nominal voltage.

Is going to be the interesting bit. We we see local battery storage, like we had gasometers?

 

[srichards]

Is going to be the interesting bit. We we see local battery storage, like we had gasometers?

Might well do. Current small substations seem to be one place you could have them but I'd think they'd have to be underground to stop scrotes stealing them.

 

[Byker28i]

One of the car manufacturers (forget which one) suggested a 13a socket should only be used to charge the car in emergencies or rarely.
I googled infastructure coping with EV charging, my link above and the suppliers are really concerned thet the grid and local supplies will not be able to cope, especially when long range batteries become more "normal" (my inverted commas, not theirs).
Their suggestion was in their report we need petrol stations converted to do mass charging whilst people do their shopping as mass home charging is a non starter, their words not mine.

So perhaps one potential solution would be to build a few thousand super-fast charging forecourts of over 3 MW capacity rather than carry out a large scale rebuild of the domestic electricity infrastructure. It may well be that the charging from home option may not be in the long term interest of the consumers even with smart chargers. If you have any questions

13A socket only gets you the lower rate slow charging. Now thats fine for something like a 24Kw leaf, but now for the larger battery cars coming now, nor for future longer range.

At the end of the day it will be up to the leccy companies to up their game.

And lets face it - they've got all the incentives, the Govt have said they want all new cars bought to be EV by 2040, so just over 20 years away. Good for the eleccy companies - it's estimated this will increase their demand by 25%

 

[Cobra]

Their suggestion was in their report we need petrol stations converted to do mass charging whilst people do their shopping

Lets just hope they keep the flammable spirit well away from the charging points then

Years ago, I used to drive fuel tankers and saw the results of a static spark while the driver was loading spirit.
He was lucky, it blew him clear, all he had was a broken arm, the tank, well I guess we have all seem the images of a dead beached whale thats been there for some time?
That's exactly what it looked like, molten and set aluminum resembling the rotting flesh and the baffle ribs looked like the rest of the carcass.

 

[wyx087]

yup - posted it somewhere earlier in this thread - there was a report from Scottish Power and southern power

The green alliance have a decent report, however their suggestion was a proposal for a new independent electricity network, separate from the current main network, operated by National Grid, to cope with demand.
I can't see there being the investment for that
http://www.green-alliance.org.uk/resources/People_power_how_consumer_choice_is_changing_UK_energy_system.pdf

Electric nation about the loading on local circuits
http://www.electricnation.org.uk/about/the-project/

Then there's all the stuff about smart meters and talk of getting them installed now as a mandatory requirement.

You seem to be quoting positive EV articles, neither of which say what you are quoting.

Quote from the Green Alliance report:


"Small scale technologies are disrupting the UK energy system, driven by
consumer preference and falling prices. The old system, dominated by passive
customers buying power from big and distant power stations, will change into
one where homeowners and businesses play an increasingly active role, by
installing small scale energy technologies. In this new system, centralised, large
scale technology will continue to be essential, but will have to operate alongside
distributed, small scale energy, helping to fill the gaps and provide the bulk
power the UK will undoubtedly need"

And what I've been saying:

Similarly, smart meters can do the same. I can see a future with per minute or even shorter electricity tariff. Everything will be tariff-aware. Your average kettle will have 3 settings: quick, normal or cheapest. Quick boils as quickly as possible, normal mode uses relatively lower tariffs over a slightly longer period, cheapest allows you to set a target tariff and only boil during those times. EV charging can work similarly, in fact, such chargers are already on the market to do exactly that for roof-top solar homes called Zappi.

As said, goal is to even out the grid's extremes using batteries and EV.

No where in the report does it say need a completely new independent electricity network. Everything is done using existing infrastructure, we need a new way of approaching electricity generation and usage, driven by distributed small scale "smart" suppliers and users.

The Electric nation project is a research project:
"The project will show how effective demand management using smart chargers is an alternative to costly network reinforcement. It will provide network operators with the information required to obtain a demand control service in the future."
NOT about "dumbly" charging EV using existing timer based chargers, nor about EV's effect on local circuits.

 

[wyx087]

One of the car manufacturers (forget which one) suggested a 13a socket should only be used to charge the car in emergencies or rarely.
I googled infastructure coping with EV charging, my link above and the suppliers are really concerned thet the grid and local supplies will not be able to cope, especially when long range batteries become more "normal" (my inverted commas, not theirs).
Their suggestion was in their report we need petrol stations converted to do mass charging whilst people do their shopping as mass home charging is a non starter, their words not mine.

So perhaps one potential solution would be to build a few thousand super-fast charging forecourts of over 3 MW capacity rather than carry out a large scale rebuild of the domestic electricity infrastructure. It may well be that the charging from home option may not be in the long term interest of the consumers even with smart chargers. If you have any questions

You are correct. The domestic 13a "granny" charger is the plan B, when home charger stops working. It is not designed for normal charging, not even for Leaf 24kWh.

When long range battery is "normal", the amount of miles people typically drive doesn't change. You'd only need to recharge your normal day mileage. Fundamentally this is different problem to cars having larger and larger petrol tank. The Forecourt-thoughts article write clearly never driven and lived with an EV, still thinking in terms of 1 fill up every week. The whole article is based on the assumption:
"Using an 11 kW charger would take 6 hours to fully charge a Tesla Model S, which also has a 90 kWh battery, from the 25% full state. "
"These problems will only be exacerbated when 7 kW chargers are used with a 90 kW battery to three-quarters charge. " 3/4 of 90kWh battery is 200 miles in dead of winter!

High capacity petrol station forecourt-like locations are absolutely needed, but only at motorway services as enabler for long distance driving. Locally, day-to-day, 7kW top-up is all that's necessary.

 

[wyx087]

Smarter use of energy and grid capabilities:
https://www.zap-map.com/new-v2g-project-to-reward-ev-drivers/

The prinicple is that the National Grid largely has enough capacit yto support large-scale uptake of EVs, but that capacity has to be used in a smarter way. During peak demand, the EVs can act as movable energy storage devices, and feed energy back into the home or grid. These can then recharge during off-peak times to ensure there is charge available for EV drivers when they want it.

As I've said, enabler for long distance travel is rapid charging locations along trunk roads. National Grid is looking at ways to enable forecourt-like locations along the motorway
https://fleetworld.co.uk/national-grid-report-takes-aim-at-range-anxiety/

The National Grid report outlines how a future-proof charging network could look. It identifies a 50 sites (100 including serving northbound and southbound carriageways) alongside the motorways, each with between 30 and 50 charging points to avoid bottlenecks. Charging at up to 350kW – seven times higher than today’s rapid chargers – would enable them to suit goods vehicles, as well as the next generation of long-range electric vehicles.

 

[PaulF]

You seem to be quoting positive EV articles, neither of which say what you are quoting.

I think he was referring to the previously provided link to the National Grid document looking into the future development of EV's and the effect on the electricity grid:
http://fes.nationalgrid.com/media/1281/forecourt-thoughts-v12.pdf

To quote from that document, the substation information is what I think is the major concern.

The amount of power that can be drawn from the electricity network is limited. These limitations will obviously differ at various points across the grid, from household through distribution networks to the transmission system. For this insight we will only consider, in detail, the ability of a household to charge a domestic vehicle.
The average household is supplied with single phase electricity and is fitted with a main fuse of 60 to 80 amps.
Using a 3.5 kW battery charger requires 16 amps. If one were to use an above average power charger, say 11 kW, this would require 48 amps. When using such a charger it would mean that you could not use other high demand electrical items (such as kettles, oven, and immersion heaters) without tripping the house’s 3 main fuse.
Using an 11 kW charger would take 6 hours to fully charge a Tesla Model S, which also has a 90 kWh battery, from the 25% full state.
If your house had fitted the maximum 100 amp main fuse then a more powerful 22 kW charger could be used. It would take only 3 hours to charge the battery (or 5 hours if the battery was completely flat); but all the other electrical equipment in the house would have to be turned off as the charger requires 96 amps.
In reality an 11 kW charger, with an above average main fuse, is likely to be a good compromise.
So the house electricity capability is one ‘pinch point’; unless the car is not used too much so the battery just needs ‘topping up’ and one is happy to trickle feed it each and every night.
Smart chargers are becoming common place and they will be the norm in the near future. These will help with spreading the demand away from peak times.

When large numbers of EVs need charging they will be one important part of the solution jigsaw.
Another ‘pinch point’ would be the substation and the peripheral routes and branches within a local distribution network.
Pilot projects, such as My Electric Avenue, were reporting potential issues at the distribution level. In one more extreme example they were identifying voltage issues when five 3.5 kW chargers were connected to a network cluster (with 134 dwellings) and were charging at the same time. The project concluded that across Britain 32% of low voltage circuits (312,000) will require reinforcing when 40% – 70% of customers have EV’s based on 3.5 kW chargers 2 .
These problems will only be exacerbated when 7 kW chargers are used. with a 90 kW battery to three-quarters charge.

 

[MatBin]

You are correct. The domestic 13a "granny" charger is the plan B, when home charger stops working. It is not designed for normal charging, not even for Leaf 24kWh.

When long range battery is "normal", the amount of miles people typically drive doesn't change. You'd only need to recharge your normal day mileage. Fundamentally this is different problem to cars having larger and larger petrol tank. The Forecourt-thoughts article write clearly never driven and lived with an EV, still thinking in terms of 1 fill up every week. The whole article is based on the assumption:
"Using an 11 kW charger would take 6 hours to fully charge a Tesla Model S, which also has a 90 kWh battery, from the 25% full state. "
"These problems will only be exacerbated when 7 kW chargers are used with a 90 kW battery to three-quarters charge. " 3/4 of 90kWh battery is 200 miles in dead of winter!

High capacity petrol station forecourt-like locations are absolutely needed, but only at motorway services as enabler for long distance driving. Locally, day-to-day, 7kW top-up is all that's necessary.

I think when longer range batteries are available people like myself who do 40/50/60 mile each way daily commutes to work will start looking at EV as replacements for ICE so long as the home charge points cope and I dont want to be stopping my commute journey to charge my vehicle at a MWay service station every day or even every other day for 40 minutes. A 60 mile commute around the M25 ccan take 2 hrs and I dont want to extend that by 40 minutes because I cant charge at home. I know my employer would not provide charge points, indeed I would suggest they wont be able to provide as I would be treated as a staff employee and my employment contract plus IR35 excludes that.