Crazy idea related to my hobby... what do you think?

Am I crazy thinking about buying a medium format film camera?

  • Yes - you'll spend £hundreds and quite probably get bored with the slow progress and dev costs

    Votes: 7 16.3%

  • Half yes - you'd be better of spending the money on your existing DSLR/trips away to photograph

    Votes: 7 16.3%

  • Neither yes nor no - you'll only find out by trying it!

    Votes: 7 16.3%

  • No with a big but... you might end up regretting spending the money but it'll be fun doing it

    Votes: 6 14.0%

  • No way - it'll complement your digital photography and allow you to explore a different side

    Votes: 14 32.6%

  • ... don't do it yet - maybe one day but you've still got so much to learn

    Votes: 2 4.7%
  • Total voters
    43
I think you need to put a couple of bricks in the box when she's not looking and get her to wrap that up instead, then you can play with it when shes at work :D
 
Ho hum... well, mixed news on the old camera front.

Package arrived this morning and I was excited to open it up and have a bit of a play with my new RZ67 Pro II:

OJCQTJr.jpg


Unfortunately, upon opening the package it appears I have been sent an RB67 Pro...

Mamiya-RB67-Pro-S.jpg


(not my picture btw).

Rather frustrating especially since I've also bought a Sekor Z 50mm lens (also arrived today: in perfect condition as precisely as described) designed to fit the newer RZ67 (and doesn't appear to fit the RB). Hey ho, we all know the risks when ordering from fleabay so I'm not going to moan about it. So far 95% of my orders have worked out really, really well and this is the first to be "bad". Obviously I'm following up through ebay/paypal refund scheme and curious to know what the position is re: customs charges (abourt £100 obviously paid out of my own pocket which I'd factored in when I decided to buy this).

I've asked the seller (who has more "RZ67 Pro II" cameras for sale on ebay right now!) simply to send me the correct camera as described, marked as nil value / gift for customs purposes and then I'll return the other one to him (with him picking up the postage costs, obviously). I doubt very much he'll agree to this as I guess he must be a bit of a con artist so I'm assuming I'll have to go back through ebay's dispute resolution. Never mind.

To be fair, the old adage of "if it's too good to be true" etc. holds: there was me thinking I'd managed to get a second hand RZ67 Pro II for sub £500. Oh well, we live and learn!

Of course, looking on the bright side: I've stuck a roll of 120 in it and I'm planning on having a play this weekend no matter what. I can have some good fun regardless and I'm not going to let the experience get me down or spoil my enjoyment of this camera (while I have it...)

Of course, if the seller is happy just to refund my money fully and let me keep the camera then I'll be ok with that :)

(I already have a cheeky idea when returning the camera - assuming that does eventually happen - to mark it as £4,000 in value and chuckle to myself when he has to pay 8% Japanese import duty on it...)
 
If you want to take architecture a 5x4 used with a roll fim back can be the way to go, a 6x9 back gives you more options than 6x7. But uses more film. There were even a few 6x9 monorail cameras made which were easier to cart around.
For a number of years I used an MPP mk7 with both 5x4 and 6x9 rollfilm and later a MPP monorail... which was a beast to cart on location. But was very nice to use.
I won the Bluebell hill road contract which lasted over a couple of years, which I took with 6x9 roll film back it was the first contract that KCC roads had placed as a colour only contract.
 
Why do people buy medium format film cameras for the higher quality and then to showcase their work they scan it in with a cheap scanner? Fair enough if you are using an X1 or X5, but I could buy a digital medium format set up for what they cost.
 
It has nothing to do with showcasing work. Using medium format and film in general is about the enjoyment of using that medium to make pictures, if you want to show them and you can't afford a very expensive scanner then something along the lines of an Epson V500 is perfectly acceptable for popping an image up online. If I want anything special scanning then I will send it off to a drum scanner or even better print it from the neg, that's when photos really come alive.
 
Andysnap said:
It has nothing to do with showcasing work. Using medium format and film in general is about the enjoyment of using that medium to make pictures, if you want to show them and you can't afford a very expensive scanner then something along the lines of an Epson V500 is perfectly acceptable for popping an image up online. If I want anything special scanning then I will send it off to a drum scanner or even better print it from the neg, that's when photos really come alive.
Click to expand...

You've got a flickr with 3,200+ photos and a link to it, so it surely must be something to do with wanting people to see it? Just seems like your film pictures will only be as strong as your weakest link when putting them online.
 
Andysnap said:
something along the lines of an Epson V500 is perfectly acceptable for popping an image up online. If I want anything special scanning then I will send it off to a drum scanner or even better print it from the neg, that's when photos really come alive.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you missed this bit. :)
 
Laudrup said:
Why do people buy medium format film cameras for the higher quality and then to showcase their work they scan it in with a cheap scanner? Fair enough if you are using an X1 or X5, but I could buy a digital medium format set up for what they cost.
Click to expand...

Please tell me where I can buy a digital 6x6 or 6x7 camera with a usable ISO range of 50-3200, all for under 1k. Under 2k for a rangefinder too. ;)

Scans from a V500 are more than good enough for web use as well, actually. A bit crap for 35mm, but medium format is a lot easier to scan.
 
Laudrup said:
You've got a flickr with 3,200+ photos and a link to it.
Click to expand...

Correct, and 3000 of those are digital and half the rest (approximately) are 35mm film. Also its a good place to store images as a back up.
You are correct about the weakest link being the scanning (or in my case possibly the original shots :D) but the newer scanners are very good indeed at a very low price point and with different film holders and modern software it is very possible to get excellent scans with masses of detail. But nothing can match printing as the detail and all around loveliness cannot be matched except by the most expensive drum scanners.
 
If only my weak link were the scanning of my negatives!

Well my disaster with my camera (the "wrong" one they sent me apparantly doesn't even work...) has now been improved by my buying another one, this time being delivered from Germany so should arrive within a week or so. I've started the dispute resolution thingie with ebay - initially via the seller (which apparently you have to do first) and we'll see where that goes. Thanks to @steveo_mcg I now know I can reclaim my customs charges :)

Annoying that I've wasted a roll of 120 but perhaps I can somehow keep it from being totally useless: how best to deal with a film in the holder that I might want to use as a tester for home developing? Any tips or tricks? Ok, it's not for now, but one day I can see myself wanting to get into chemicals and dark bags :)
 
pjm1 said:
If only my weak link were the scanning of my negatives!

Well my disaster with my camera (the "wrong" one they sent me apparantly doesn't even work...) has now been improved by my buying another one, this time being delivered from Germany so should arrive within a week or so. I've started the dispute resolution thingie with ebay - initially via the seller (which apparently you have to do first) and we'll see where that goes. Thanks to @steveo_mcg I now know I can reclaim my customs charges :)

Annoying that I've wasted a roll of 120 but perhaps I can somehow keep it from being totally useless: how best to deal with a film in the holder that I might want to use as a tester for home developing? Any tips or tricks? Ok, it's not for now, but one day I can see myself wanting to get into chemicals and dark bags :)
Click to expand...

Get under the duvet, turn out the lights and... Open the back and rewind it back on to the source spool.
 
pjm1 said:
If only my weak link were the scanning of my negatives!
Click to expand...


You need to up your all round loveliness game then...lol

All round loveliness is as Andy correctly states, the pinnacle to which we all aspire and ought to be included with a grading in every critique.

Scanning is.....like going to work, a necessary evil, unless you can retire.

jebus, I'm glad I don't have to do it any more, its really quite liberating :D
 
pjm1 said:
I was wondering where you were going with that for a moment!

All joking aside, I have a red-light head torch (hillwalking) - can I use that or do I need to do it properly under the duvet with no light source at all?
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No light at all for film, red lights are for printing
 
pjm1 said:
I was wondering where you were going with that for a moment!

All joking aside, I have a red-light head torch (hillwalking) - can I use that or do I need to do it properly under the duvet with no light source at all?
Click to expand...

No, film is still sensitive to red light so you need complete darkness or you'll fog the film.
 
Replacement RZ67 Pro II arrived this morning... hurrah! It appears to work (have been testing with dark slide left in and set to "M") at least as far as the shutter release is concerned. The one which finally arrived also has the bonus of having the proper mirror release cable thingie as well, so can do easy mirror lockup and remote shutter release now. Just need to pick up a new 6V battery tomorrow and I get out there and start shooting!

(Spent this morning under the duvet, changing the film over, so thanks @steveo_mcg and @joxby )
 
Laudrup said:
Why do people buy medium format film cameras for the higher quality and then to showcase their work they scan it in with a cheap scanner? Fair enough if you are using an X1 or X5, but I could buy a digital medium format set up for what they cost.
Click to expand...


Have you seen the scans from a X5? :) If you had, you'd now why.
 
joxby said:
No light at all for film, red lights are for printing
Click to expand...

Not entirely true. Your talking about Panchromatic film which is sensitive to the whole visible spectrum and will fog if exposed to a safelight.

However, Orthochromatic film is sensitive to blue or blue and green light can be handled under suitable safelights.
 
Laudrup said:
Yeah but it should be good for £14,000.
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But really decent MF gear is more expensive still when you factor in lenses etc. It's still more economical to shoot 120 and invest in a decent scanner. Only the X5 is £14K. I have access to a X5, and a much older Imacon scanner that can be bought used now for around £3K. There's not much to tell them apart.

I agree that shooting MF and scanning it on a flatbed is a waste of time though. You're just losing everything that makes MF great.
 
For negative materail at least a Screen Cezanne or Fuji Lanavia Pro flatbed comfortably beat an X5 specs wise given that its limited to 3200dpi by the time you get to 120 you could most likely pick either up for well under 1000. The Imacon and Flexlight most likely keep a higher value secondhand due to some being currently available as well as sevice backup although Screen will suport its older products at 985 +VAT a visit I doubt most people who paid half of that for a scanner go for it.

Plenty of drum scanners that will exceed any of the above go for a lot less if you are prepared to make the effort to get them running.
 
abbandon said:
For negative materail at least a Screen Cezanne or Fuji Lanavia Pro flatbed comfortably beat an X5 specs wise given that its limited to 3200dpi by the time you get to 120 you could most likely pick either up for well under 1000. The Imacon and Flexlight most likely keep a higher value secondhand due to some being currently available as well as sevice backup although Screen will suport its older products at 985 +VAT a visit I doubt most people who paid half of that for a scanner go for it.

Plenty of drum scanners that will exceed any of the above go for a lot less if you are prepared to make the effort to get them running.
Click to expand...

You're talking about gear that's A) Becoming impossible to actually get hold of, and B) still very expensive. They're also very problematic to run on most of today's computers due to old drivers not being compatible, needing SCSI connections in some cases.... basically... they're a pain. Also... as you've pointed out.. servicing and repair is fast becoming nil.

Plus.... There's more to a scan that its specs on paper.
 
Aztek and IGC still make - well claim to make drum scanners I often wonder if they are still selling stock from a few years back the Premier with DPL at least works with windows 7 while I would agree that IGC have to be having a laugh selling "new" equipment that will only run on Mac OS9. Now they are both still expensive certainly 20K plus.

For machines using SCCI that will run on windows £20 for a nice Dell HP workstation box that has a SCCI card in it. Granted lots of the older scanners involve the filthy experience of Mac OS9 easy enough to pick up suitable G4's for under £40 throw away if it goes bang and have a spare to hand.

Hard to say if they are harder to get hold of, often enough drum scanners get skipped or given away and if you know where to look they come up often enough at not insane prices.

Howtek 4500 £685 auction on ebay 2008 complete turnkey system ... thing with Howteks they are not the best built of scanners I can easilly repair this machine (failed after 6 months) but I found some of its limitations irritating so haven't sought out the three HV power suplies it needs

Optronics ColorGetter II Pro £123 ebay auction 2009, now I'm prepared to admit these are an absolutely bitch to get running the requirement to get exactly the right GPIB interface card and get everyrhing talking is fun but all the information is out there the real catch with these is if you just get the 8bit software with it the 16bit is going to cost you something like £850.

Dianippon Screen DT-S1045AI £250 buy it now 8000dpi with an A3 drum complete turn key system that needed "adjustment" service manual is easy to find most people say it takes two people to restring the lead wire took me about 40 minuites to do on my own.

Drumscanners aren't for everybody I guess but having some electronics knowledge I'm happy to fix them myself.

The Howteks are granted tempremental and do require service / maintaince whereas the colorgetter and the screen its basicly give the cover a wipe now and then there is now alignment or maintance required these machines were built to run 24/7 most actual problems encountered with them is due to dry caps in power supplies that are easy to fix.

The Screen has been on 24/7 since Febuary 2013 when I brought it the only failure as such in that time was the bulb for which I had already taken the precaution of having a replacment available cost £5

To get the ultimate best out of any of the takes some time but with the Screen at least its entirely possible to get a decent scan on your first go on auto settings.

So yes they are a pain but nothing has supassed them technology wise and it is highly unlikely anything ever will as the industry they were built for no longer requires them.


My point would be rather than pay £700 odd for a V750 which if you are a critical user you will never be happy with you can if and you have some practical apptitude you can get a much better scanner if you carefully research the used market.
 
abbandon said:
Aztek and IGC still make - well claim to make drum scanners I often wonder if they are still selling stock from a few years back the Premier with DPL at least works with windows 7 while I would agree that IGC have to be having a laugh selling "new" equipment that will only run on Mac OS9. Now they are both still expensive certainly 20K plus.

For machines using SCCI that will run on windows £20 for a nice Dell HP workstation box that has a SCCI card in it. Granted lots of the older scanners involve the filthy experience of Mac OS9 easy enough to pick up suitable G4's for under £40 throw away if it goes bang and have a spare to hand.

Hard to say if they are harder to get hold of, often enough drum scanners get skipped or given away and if you know where to look they come up often enough at not insane prices.

Howtek 4500 £685 auction on ebay 2008 complete turnkey system ... thing with Howteks they are not the best built of scanners I can easilly repair this machine (failed after 6 months) but I found some of its limitations irritating so haven't sought out the three HV power suplies it needs

Optronics ColorGetter II Pro £123 ebay auction 2009, now I'm prepared to admit these are an absolutely bitch to get running the requirement to get exactly the right GPIB interface card and get everyrhing talking is fun but all the information is out there the real catch with these is if you just get the 8bit software with it the 16bit is going to cost you something like £850.

Dianippon Screen DT-S1045AI £250 buy it now 8000dpi with an A3 drum complete turn key system that needed "adjustment" service manual is easy to find most people say it takes two people to restring the lead wire took me about 40 minuites to do on my own.

Drumscanners aren't for everybody I guess but having some electronics knowledge I'm happy to fix them myself.

The Howteks are granted tempremental and do require service / maintaince whereas the colorgetter and the screen its basicly give the cover a wipe now and then there is now alignment or maintance required these machines were built to run 24/7 most actual problems encountered with them is due to dry caps in power supplies that are easy to fix.

The Screen has been on 24/7 since Febuary 2013 when I brought it the only failure as such in that time was the bulb for which I had already taken the precaution of having a replacment available cost £5

To get the ultimate best out of any of the takes some time but with the Screen at least its entirely possible to get a decent scan on your first go on auto settings.

So yes they are a pain but nothing has supassed them technology wise and it is highly unlikely anything ever will as the industry they were built for no longer requires them.


My point would be rather than pay £700 odd for a V750 which if you are a critical user you will never be happy with you can if and you have some practical apptitude you can get a much better scanner if you carefully research the used market.
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Tim Parkin uses the Howtek 4500 over at Cheap Drum Scanning. Is the quality of the drumscan output in general a lot better than the X1 or X5?
 
The X5 gets described as a virtual drum scanner because of the way the film is mounted this however misses the point of the strongest advantage of a drum scanner which is that it uses PM's rather than a CCD.

I have no direct experience of the X5 but I think you would find very few people prefering it to a drum scanner as to how much better it is that would depend on what you are scanning as in film type and format.

Every scanner has limitations one way or another one of the limitaions of the X5 or potetail limitations is the scan resolution drops with format size so for really big enlargements from large format it is unlikely to be your first choice also its Drange will be less than a drum scanner so for difficult Velvia 50 the drum scan would be your firt choice, wheras as for 35mm negative materails they would be advantages to using the X5.

Not all drum scanners were created equal and a Howtek 4500 in good condition can certainly produce good scans but they are in my opinion not as robust as some of the other options which also beat them quality wise the Seybold report makes interesting reading if you can find a copy.

One of the limitations of the Howtek is it can only scan 5" of the drum at 4000dpi so you can not scan 10"x8" over 2000dpi I have asked people who have claimed to have managed it as to how they did but never recieved a convincing answer.

People who buy a drum scanner and then develop a buisiness from it often seem to move on from the Howtek to the IGC or Hieldburg Tango's - another limitation of the Howtek is quite a small drum area you can mount a lot more on a Tango so from a productivity point of view it makes a lot of sense.

If you haven't had a look the LargeFormat.info scan comparrision is worth a look.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/scan-comparison/
 
Scanners ? - enlargers were designed to hold negatives and project the light source through on to graded paper. Watching them develop in front of you, stopping it then fixing it was one of the joys of working under a safelight.

Scanners ! - ok for copying documents but any else is superfluous in my option ! I just cannot see the point in quasi D&P if you have to use a scanner then you may as well be using photoshop !
 
abbandon said:
My point would be rather than pay £700 odd for a V750 which if you are a critical user you will never be happy with you can if and you have some practical apptitude you can get a much better scanner if you carefully research the used market.
Click to expand...

Never rule out the quality you can get by actually photographing negatives and slides. Done well, and using a high resolution camera, you can get results that are IMO equally as good as some fairly high end scanners.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Scanners ? - enlargers were designed to hold negatives and project the light source through on to graded paper. Watching them develop in front of you, stopping it then fixing it was one of the joys of working under a safelight.

Scanners ! - ok for copying documents but any else is superfluous in my option ! I just cannot see the point in quasi D&P if you have to use a scanner then you may as well be using photoshop !
Click to expand...

So you only do B&W then?
 
Pookeyhead said:
Never rule out the quality you can get by actually photographing negatives and slides. Done well, and using a high resolution camera, you can get results that are IMO equally as good as some fairly high end scanners.
Click to expand...

For 35mm a lot of people might already have eveything they need to get pretty decent results for larger formats quite a bit more effort is going to be involved.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?87536-DSLR-Scanner-Light-Sources
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?88812-DSLR-Scanner-Scans-and-Comparisons

As to matching hi end scanners

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?116956-DIY-DSLR-Scanner-vs-Drum-Scanner

I commend to you the posts on page two by Bruce Watson and Peter J De Smidt

Also possibly of interest to others

http://www.largeformatphotography.i...106507-Recommend-a-Good-Flatbed-Scanner/page5


People could easilly spend more going the diy route than picking up a seconhand hi end unit.

Also just about every hi end scanner will batch scan once set up I could leave the Screen 1045 to do its own thing and scan 72 35mm frames in a batch or mixed combinations that can be nailed to a A3 area if you are going the diy route for 35mm things might be getting tedious around that point and with the multiple shots and stitching to do larger formats.

People have to work out what standards they need / can afford and what inconvienances they or their partners / familly can live with.

250 for the screen to me was a no brainer.
 
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