Did the Archbishop of Canterbury just apologise for bombing the Nazis?

kennethwfd said:
not all Germans supported the Nazis, in fact there was a plot to assassinate Hitler which very nearly was successful

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot
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There were a number of plots to kill Hitler over the years, but I agree that this one came much closer to success than any of the others. Whether the conspirators had any real prospect of seizing power and bringing the war to an end is another discussion though.

It's also true that "not all Germans supported the Nazis" but post war denial has clouded the issue. It's difficult to assess, and remains controversial.
 
MartynK said:
It's also true that "not all Germans supported the Nazis" but post war denial has clouded the issue. It's difficult to assess, and remains controversial.
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Indeed, you could compare that to modern day North Korea in that the PR says the people are in full support and love the regime, yet those few that do manage to escape tell a different story, but no one with in the country dare speak against it. What the true figures and real feelings are, are both impossible to judge and as subjects are controversial as we apply our 'modern, democratic' social morals to it and make assumptions that may or may not be true. In Germany there appeared to be strong national support for the Nazi party until about '43-ish, when they stopped winning everything, but it is indeed a very cloudy issue.
 
Hitler himself was Austrian born and he did form the SS and their subdivision The Gestapo to make sure the people didn't speak against them.
They were formed of the so called elite or as they called themselves The Master Race.
How much the people actually knew of what was happening is indeed a mute point, my own mother said they knew nothing whilst
proudly displaying a picture of her brother in SS uniform, something I didn't realise at the time.
He disappeared without trace long before the end of the war
 
Jon Pertwee ( Dr Who & Wurzel Gummidge) married a German and she recalled how xenophobic Britain was in the 50's on one occasion someone made a cutting remark about "Krauts" whereupon Jon intoduced him to his "Kraut" wife
 
kennethwfd said:
Jon Pertwee ( Dr Who & Wurzel Gummidge) married a German and she recalled how xenophobic Britain was in the 50's
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I think that ran into the 80's before we "went all PC" and still acceptable to some people.
 
I don't find xenophobia - if that's even the right word - towards Germans in the 50s particularly surprising. Many peoples memories of the war, and their personal losses, were still very raw. Having said that, quite a few British servicemen married German girls.

Not sure what this has to do with the topics of the thread though?
 
MartynK said:
Not sure what this has to do with the topics of the thread though?
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It's a TP thread, so it's fair game.

The OP linked to a news item having a bash at a British Clerical figure for making a personal comment on his feelings about Dresden. The OP lifted a line from it referring to the German Chancellor not making similar apologies, although she and her feelings do not relate to the subject in the article. So we end up having a discussion about people wanting to have a go at the Germans for what they did during the war.
 
MartynK said:
I don't find xenophobia - if that's even the right word - towards Germans in the 50s particularly surprising. Many peoples memories of the war, and their personal losses, were still very raw. Having said that, quite a few British servicemen married German girls.

Not sure what this has to do with the topics of the thread though?
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The reverse is also true.
Quite a few marriages between English girls and German POWs.
 
So we end up having a discussion about people wanting to have a go at the Germans for what they did during the war.
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It seems to me it's more about having a go at what the British did during the war.

In the 70's amongst British Forces in Germany it was common to refer to the Germans as Krauts. The Dutch as Cloggies, the Americans as Yanks and the Canadians as...Canadians for some odd reason. But no one seemed insulted or intended to be insulting. It was just a way of referring to other NATO members. No doubt Brits wasn't the usual way of referring to us. The lefty Grafitti in the Town I lived in usually referred to "Tommy" eg "Tommy Go Home", which I would have done, but my name's not tommy.
 
xenophobia.....dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries

Not half as much is made regarding Mussolini deciding to join forces with Hitler and so Italy declared war on Britain as well in 1940

Following Walkure a furious Hitler rounded up participants and from diaries and letters discovered, was aware of the previous attempts to assassinate him, so some 7,000 were rounded up by the Gestapo, although some might not have een actually involved but known opponents. Rommel's involvement has been debated, but was offered the option of suicide, which also othes accused did likewise, because their trial would be in a kangaroo court

so to take a simplistic damn-all- Germans because of WW2 is misguided at best
 
new2me said:
It's a TP thread, so it's fair game.

The OP linked to a news item having a bash at a British Clerical figure for making a personal comment on his feelings about Dresden. The OP lifted a line from it referring to the German Chancellor not making similar apologies, although she and her feelings do not relate to the subject in the article. So we end up having a discussion about people wanting to have a go at the Germans for what they did during the war.
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For me it was members coming on saying it was a war crime,which it wasn't .
 
simonblue said:
For me it was members coming on saying it was a war crime,which it wasn't .
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(y) IRRC wasnt Dresden a retaliation for what the germans did at Coventry ... if they didnt want their cities bombed, perhaps they should have thought twice before bombing ours. That said neither was a war crime because attacks like that were part of the war, and neither side really had much of a choice as they didnt have the precision technology we have now.

Deliberately bombing civilians today would possibly be a war crime (although its debateable if the otherside deliberately use them to sheild military infrastructure - as Saddam Hussein was prone to), but in the 40s it was just part of the war..

and I agree with many other posters apologies are just silly - why should either side apologise for something their grandfathers did ?
 
viv1969 said:
The reverse is also true.
Quite a few marriages between English girls and German POWs.
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Yeah, I know. Just that I remember a couple of friends whose mothers were German, and married their fathers when they were with the occupation forces after the war.
 
big soft moose said:
and I agree with many other posters apologies are just silly - why should either side apologise for something their grandfathers did ?
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Thing is, it wasn't an apology that sparked the article or the thread ... NO ONE HAS APOLOGISED!
 
kennethwfd said:
xenophobia.....dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries
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OK, the OED defines xenophobia as "deep-rooted, irrational hatred towards foreigners". I'm not sure there was anything irrational about some people hating Germans in the immediate post war period.

so to take a simplistic damn-all- Germans because of WW2 is misguided at best
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Of course it is. I don't know anyone who feels that way. Do you?
 
Bernie174 said:
In the 70's amongst British Forces in Germany it was common to refer to the Germans as Krauts. The Dutch as Cloggies, the Americans as Yanks and the Canadians as...Canadians for some odd reason. But no one seemed insulted or intended to be insulting. It was just a way of referring to other NATO members. No doubt Brits wasn't the usual way of referring to us. The lefty Grafitti in the Town I lived in usually referred to "Tommy" eg "Tommy Go Home", which I would have done, but my name's not tommy.
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That may have been acceptable but saying that and worse to a 7yo at primary school I don't find acceptable.
Yes I am the daughter of a german war bride and unfortunately the only one to be given a german name.
Looking back I wonder whether my dad knew the problems it would cause, hence him conveniently forgetting
when he came to register my 2 older sisters ;)
By the time I made it to primary school my sisters had moved on to the local secondary being born a year apart.
Being born in a small village everyone knew who my parents were and most had suffered some loss in the war
so I guess it was inevitable, and bullying wasn't as frowned upon as it is today, so you either got over it or let it get to
you, I chose the former and eventully was left alone.
Looking back I can understand why and largely forgive them.
 
new2me said:
... NO ONE HAS APOLOGISED!
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Huh, I thought the archbishop of canterbury apologised but now says he didn't -or something :bang:
 
big soft moose said:
Huh, I thought the archbishop of canterbury apologised but now says he didn't -or something :banghead:
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No, some cabinet minister misinterpreted the archbishop's personal comment and decided to be offended. I wonder if he posts on TP :rolleyes:
 
MartynK said:
OK, the OED defines xenophobia as "deep-rooted, irrational hatred towards foreigners". I'm not sure there was anything irrational about some people hating Germans in the immediate post war period.



Of course it is. I don't know anyone who feels that way. Do you?
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Yes, I do Including my relatives of a previous generation.(the only good German is a dead one)

Don't start regarding the Japanese.and their involveent in WW2

And see earlier post re Mrs. Pertwee
 
new2me said:
No, some cabinet minister misinterpreted the archbishop's personal comment and decided to be offended. I wonder if he posts on TP :rolleyes:
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well the archbishop said he felt "regret and deep sorrow" - his people can try and spin it how they wish but if i said i regretted punching you in the nose, and that i felt sorrow at the thought of doing it, most peopl would interpret that as an apology

I'm slightly more perplexed by the description of dresden as "nazi occupied" - last time I checked dresden was in germany , so it wasnt occupied territory at all
 
That's interpretation for you.
 
big soft moose said:
well the archbishop said he felt "regret and deep sorrow" - his people can try and spin it how they wish but if i said i regretted punching you in the nose, and that i felt sorrow at the thought of doing it, most peopl would interpret that as an apology
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If he'd bombed Dresden, you might have interpreted that way but expressing regret and the feeling of sorrow at the deaths of thousands should not be.

Or, to use your analogy, if I said that I regretted someone (that I don't even know punching you in the nose and that I felt sorrow at the thought of them doing it, most people wouldn't interpret that as an apology. ;)
 
but why does he regret the death of thousands of our enemy who's government and armed forces spent 7 years killing brits ?

On the analogy your point would stand if he wasnt representing the country that did it.
 
big soft moose said:
but why does he regret the death of thousands of our enemy who's government and armed forces spent 7 years killing brits ?

On the analogy your point would stand if he wasnt representing the country that did it.
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Do you not regret the fact that thousands of innocent civilians were killed? You may feel that the actions were justified but the 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

And as far as representing the country that did it, I don't believe he was speaking on behalf of said country but rather expressing personal feelings.
 
big soft moose said:
but why does he regret the death of thousands of our enemy who's government and armed forces spent 7 years killing brits ?
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Does someone of his religious standing recognise a difference between christians of Britain and Germany?
 
fabs said:
Do you not regret the fact that thousands of innocent civilians were killed?
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Not in the least - the germans asked for it when their airforce bombed coventry (and the east end of london, and various other british cities). had nukes been available earlier I'd have had no qualms at all about us dropping one on berlin either ...

And as far as representing the country that did it, I don't believe he was speaking on behalf of said country but rather expressing personal feelings.
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Hes the preminent british archbishop, speaking while on an official visit ... its not like he said it to his mate bob down the pub
 
new2me said:
Does someone of his religious standing recognise a difference between christians of Britain and Germany?
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you'd damn well hope so - if not thats worse than the supposed apology..

Although Nazi's werent exactly christians anyway
 
You know, it is possible to accept the consequences of total war but still feel regret for the outcome.

Any loss of any human life is to be regretted, however it came about.
 
simon ess said:
You know, it is possible to accept the consequences of total war but still feel regret for the outcome.

Any loss of any human life is to be regretted, however it came about.
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Not according to Pete apparently. Men, women, children just trying to go about their daily lives. Nah, f*** 'em, they just happened to be German.
 
fabs said:
Not according to Pete apparently. Men, women, children just trying to go about their daily lives. Nah, f*** 'em, they just happened to be German.
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I hope that you do not think that it was a case of us bombing the Germans just because we liked doing it, something to pass the time whilst we eventually met up with our mates the Russians and the Yanks in Berlin?
War is horrific, and when it is directed at you, as it was at anyone in Europe who stood against Hitler, then you have to fight back - any way you can, Marquis of Queensbery rules do not apply.
As various people, including myself have pointed out in earlier posts, the Germans were happy to support Hitler and everything he stood for in the thirties and the early part of the war, because they were caught up in the "glory" of it all - victory after victory.
It was only later when they stopped winning battles, and were forced to admit defeat in their campaign in Russia, that the plots to get rid of Hitler surfaced.
Over 60 million people died in WW2, so Dresden just pales into insignificance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

I wonder if Angela Merkel and others would attend a ceremony to mourn the 26 million Russian dead?
 
andy700 said:
I hope that you do not think that it was a case of us bombing the Germans just because we liked doing it, something to pass the time whilst we eventually met up with our mates the Russians and the Yanks in Berlin?
War is horrific, and when it is directed at you, as it was at anyone in Europe who stood against Hitler, then you have to fight back - any way you can, Marquis of Queensbery rules do not apply.
As various people, including myself have pointed out in earlier posts, the Germans were happy to support Hitler and everything he stood for in the thirties and the early part of the war, because they were caught up in the "glory" of it all - victory after victory.
It was only later when they stopped winning battles, and were forced to admit defeat in their campaign in Russia, that the plots to get rid of Hitler surfaced.
Over 60 million people died in WW2, so Dresden just pales into insignificance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

I wonder if Angela Merkel and others would attend a ceremony to mourn the 26 million Russian dead?
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You misunderstand Andy, I've never said the the allies shouldn't have bombed Dresden. The only thing I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong with regrettng the death of innocent civilians, no matter what nationality they happen to be, hence what I said above.

fabs said:
Do you not regret the fact that thousands of innocent civilians were killed? You may feel that the actions were justified but the 2 aren't mutually exclusive.
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It is a matter of great regret that a cadre of very clever, utterly ruthless people were able, through genius application of propaganda, to convince a whole nation of ordinary people to support them in their atrocious agenda.

We would do well to learn from that.

It is a matter of great regret that total war was inflicted upon the world as a result.

It is a matter of great regret that in total war all suffer and terrible things are done on all sides.

My Dad, 95 now but still going strong, was born and raised in Coventry. During the blitz he was a machine setter at the Dunlop by day and on firewatch by night. He helped dig the bodies out of the shelter under Owen Owens, one of whom was his sister.

He would consider the idea that no regret should be felt or expressed about the deaths of ordinary German people to be extraordinarily inhumane. As do I.
 
andy700 said:
I wonder if Angela Merkel and others would attend a ceremony to mourn the 26 million Russian dead?
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What has Angela Merkel got to do with it? David Cameron didn't make the comment!
 
big soft moose said:
Not in the least - the germans asked for it when their airforce bombed coventry (and the east end of london, and various other british cities). had nukes been available earlier I'd have had no qualms at all about us dropping one on berlin either ...
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and there you have it hypocrisy at it's best and possibly the not caring about certain races attitude that started the whole thing
 
Well as the product of parents who both suffered in nazi occupied territory. One of which whose family home and estate was taken over as a regional headquarters and was made to watch the executions of fellow country men in their courtyard and can still barely talk about what he had to witness.

Well I'm disgusted by even the suggestion of an apology and how that is immediately used by some to play out some weird agenda. I am very grateful for those brave men and women from around the world who did the best they could and freed my parents and their parents.
 
big soft moose said:
you'd damn well hope so - if not thats worse than the supposed apology..

Although Nazi's werent exactly christians anyway
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No they were not ! They executed a German priest Dietrich Bonhoeffer by hanging just days before the end of The war for speaking out against Nazism.
 
new2me said:
Does someone of his religious standing recognise a difference between christians of Britain and Germany?
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Yes. We had our British god on our side. They only had that Johnny foreigner god so had no chance!


Steve.
 
In fact. the British attitude was that Hitler and Nazisn were evil, even the Antchrist, so God was on our side

Also a significant rise in the number of people claiming that they were in fact Swiss
 
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