Gig photography

[Meady]

I regularly shoot at a local music venue with my EOS40D. The lighting in there is terrible and a lot of the bands don't like flash (nor do i if i can avoid it) so I'm thinking of upgrading to either a 7D or 5D Mk2. Any comments or recommendations for the best option for low light gig photography that would be OK for the local press please?

 

[Dino f]

I shot gigs for a couple of years with a 40d, most of my shots were published. No problems with the camera.
What glass are you using????
Dean.

 

[woof woof]

I shot gigs for years with a Nikon SLR, ISO 1600 film and just one f4 lens so these days we're spoilt with digital and relatively cheap fast lenses but being honest my prints wouldn't have looked too good printed anything other than small

I've never tried a 7D but from what I've read and seen I'd be surprised if it comprehensively beats your 40D in low light high ISO shooting. Maybe a 40D + fast lens or FF + fast lens is the way to go?

 

[KC Leblanc]

If the lighting is really bad that no matter how many ISOs you throw at it you'll end up with a dull photo.

I shoot a good few gigs, the best investment was a fast prime. In my case a Nikkor 35 f1.8, although I do now also have a fast zoom as well.

Also shoot raw, you can often save under exposed images. This brings me on to next biggest upgrade I've made. Adobe Lightroom, I'm still learning but it's fantastic product.

 

[Meady]

Hey all, thanks for the comments. I use a 17-85 IS zoom but its 4 - 5.6 so maybe I should be looking at faster lenses. Thanks again and any lens suggestions really welcomed!

 

[woof woof]

How much or how little do you want to spend?

You could go for a 17-50mm f2.8 zoom or you could go for a f1.4/f1.8 prime.

The cheapest option would be to buy a manual legacy 50mm f1.8 and possibly a 28mm f2.8 too and use them via a cheap adapter. Or you could go for an auto focus 50mm f1.8 which would give you a rather tight field of view but could be bought on a budget. If you want something like an auto focus 28mm f1.8 or 30mm f1.4 you'll be spending more pennies.

 

[pete.rush]

Have a read of this, Nawty posted the link in another thread where someone's have issues with their setup

http://davidwalkerphotographyblog.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/a-guide-to-nightclub-photography/

And this
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=268784

 

[woof woof]

Seen that before and whilst he gets IMVHO good shots gotta remember that he uses flash which isn't always possible.

Sometimes there is just the widest aperture and ISO you can use and the hope that the shutter speed isn't too low to cause you to end up with an unusable picture.

If you can shoot with flash and like the style that guys advice is very good IMVHO.

 

[gary43]

Hi Meady


I think you have the classic dilemma of great high iso in the 5D2 but flakey autofocus versus the improved autofocus but much worse high iso on the 7D. Most would advise the 5D3 which is the best of both worlds. OOI I have shot only a dozen or so gigs for the venue so am no expert but you definitely need fast glass. One of my favourite gig lenses is the Canon 135f2.

Good luck with your choices.

Gary

 

[seriousrikk]

Hey all, thanks for the comments. I use a 17-85 IS zoom but its 4 - 5.6 so maybe I should be looking at faster lenses. Thanks again and any lens suggestions really welcomed!

YOu need to upgrade you lens first.

Either a 17-50mm F2.8 or indeed combine that with a 35mm/50mm F1.8.

THEN you will see a huge improvement in your shots. And your autofocus hit rate.

 

[Brendan Mulachy]

YOu need to upgrade you lens first.

Either a 17-50mm F2.8 or indeed combine that with a 35mm/50mm F1.8.

THEN you will see a huge improvement in your shots. And your autofocus hit rate.

perfect combination for me but i tend to shoot in smallish venues, i try to use the 17-50 @ 2.8 most of the time but occasionally for the fringes i need 1.8 to give me enough light to see but with an acceptable shutter speed, next up for me will be an 85mm 1.8 just for a bit of added reach for those at the back

 

[PeteMo]

As others have said, you should manage fine with your 40D and some faster glass

I would have looked a bit of a tit with my D700 so I took my humble D60 to a family wedding over Xmas and paired with a 50mm f1.8 got some decent shots of the band at the evening reception. All shot at ISO 1600. Noisy but perfectly acceptable.

 

[allanmacdonald]

Definitely don't buy the 7D if you're doing gig photography. I had it for a while, and I couldn't deal with the poor high ISO performance, so I sold it. Anything above ISO 800 and you're starting to get lots of noise. I would go for a 5D, and if possible, a MK III, because you're getting the advantage of the better autofocus system as well as really good low-light performance.

You won't be disappointed with the MK II, though, if you do decide to go for that one. Use it with a fast lens, and you're sorted.

 

[Bluesmachine]

I've been doing gig photography for a few months for my mates band. The 60D wasn't cutting it for me, mainly due to the crop factor. I used this as an excuse to buy my 5dmk3, which combined with the 35L and 85L is great. One thing I've found is that if the light is constantly changing and I want to capture a sudden image opportunity, the auto ISO setting is very handy. Obviously if it's consistent lighting, setting ISO manually is better, but that's a rarity.

Most pubs/clubs won't allow flash photography I discovered, so this pushed me into buying decent lenses.

 

[jimmy83]

Iam going to be giving this ago on Friday. Really excited, iam just hoping the lighting rig is half decent.

Will be using my new 7D, hope I dont suffer bad ISO at high levels. Keeping reading mixed reports on it all.

Just found out I can use flash aswell, which is a massive bonus

Any tips would be great! Ive got a 24-105 f4 L 17-50 f2.8 tamron VC and 50mm f1.8 to play with.

 

[Cagey75]

If using flash, mix it with ambient, or your shots may turn out dull - a bit lifeless. The lighting at gigs adds to the atmosphere, as shoddy as they can be - some say lighting guys hate photographers - you may feel this while shooting - They just never seem to give you good spots when you're trying to grab those closer in band member shots.

I've shot gigs with a D90 and tamron 17-50 2.8, great, light, cheap-ish combo - good enough for most venues so long as you're close to the stage. I have shot from the pit using that combination and got some good results. I never pushed past 200 - 3200 on that though, which used to mean more processing, to lift exposures and clean up noise.

Since I have upgraded it's been so much easier, D800 + 24-70 + 70-200 I used for the last few gigs and was really impressed with the ISO performance. I was shooting all the way through, from 1000 to 10K! and all usable images.

And the D800 is not the best for noise handling, the 7D is probably not far behind it, you'll be surprised. So don't be afraid push it. I prefer to push it than use flash at all. If I had to use flash I wouldn't aim it direct, I would bounce itat a very low level and push the ISO about half what i would without flash, and keep the lens wide open still, maybe stop to f/4 for full group shots.

This one was at ISO 5000, and I got away with 1/160 at 2.8:


Y&T by Cagey75, on Flickr

I could have cleaned the noise up more but I like a bit of a gritty feel to gig shots tbh. It's up on flickr at a good size, just a crop from the original really - you can clearly see noise when looking 100% - but nobody does that with gig shots!

 

[seriousrikk]

Iam going to be giving this ago on Friday. Really excited, iam just hoping the lighting rig is half decent.

Will be using my new 7D, hope I dont suffer bad ISO at high levels. Keeping reading mixed reports on it all.

Just found out I can use flash aswell, which is a massive bonus

Any tips would be great! Ive got a 24-105 f4 L 17-50 f2.8 tamron VC and 50mm f1.8 to play with.

Few things to add which may help.

First... look at http://misfitphotography.co.uk/ - all my shots taken with 7D and 17-50 F2.8 lens. Some are up to ISO6400 and I am simply not concerned about going that high, at all. Noise can be catered for without issue. Just get the exposure right and you are set.

Lighting, I would say see how a few shots at 1/125 F2.8 ISO1600 look and take it from there. I will go to ISO 6400 and down to 1/60th before I will consider using flash (if allowed). If I do get to flash territory I will still run at the above settings, and set flash to about -1 to -2 compensation. Saves batteries and much less of a distraction on the band and the crowd. But try not to use it at all if possible.

External flashguns do have another benefit when the light is low... AF assist beam. I have one of my customer settings on the dial including flash set not to fire, but external af assist ON. This helps greatly when the lights are poor quality...

Without flash I shoot manual, starting at 1/125 F2.8 and auto ISO up to 3200 (higher if needed).

Oh, and don't forget to have fun.

 

[jimmy83]

Few things to add which may help.

First... look at http://misfitphotography.co.uk/ - all my shots taken with 7D and 17-50 F2.8 lens. Some are up to ISO6400 and I am simply not concerned about going that high, at all. Noise can be catered for without issue. Just get the exposure right and you are set.

Lighting, I would say see how a few shots at 1/125 F2.8 ISO1600 look and take it from there. I will go to ISO 6400 and down to 1/60th before I will consider using flash (if allowed). If I do get to flash territory I will still run at the above settings, and set flash to about -1 to -2 compensation. Saves batteries and much less of a distraction on the band and the crowd. But try not to use it at all if possible.

External flashguns do have another benefit when the light is low... AF assist beam. I have one of my customer settings on the dial including flash set not to fire, but external af assist ON. This helps greatly when the lights are poor quality...

Without flash I shoot manual, starting at 1/125 F2.8 and auto ISO up to 3200 (higher if needed).

Oh, and don't forget to have fun.

Cheers Richard, just what I was after-and you use some of the same kit as me! My 40D just packed up and deiced to put all my cash on a 7D mainly due to the expensive case. Camera arrives Weds PM, and the gig is Friday so dont have much time to practice either! Got loads of storage-soI wont be having to delete on the fly now. Got loads of AA's too, plus hopefully should have another 7D battery come Thursday.

I think the AF is going to take some time to get used to from what ive read tho, will be practicing all night Weds and Thursday! Would you recommend single point AF? What about continuous shooting?

 

[seriousrikk]

For autofocus I use single point AF in one shot focus mode. For gigs, the fancy AF system doesn't need any changes, so don't worry yourself. Treat it like your 40D just with more AF points.

I did try servo mode but found in changing light it didn't do so well. Plus, if you use the AF assist beam on the flash, this does not fire in Servo!

If you want to spend time with it, spend it learning how to change the ISO & shutter speed on the fly without looking at the camera. That will be a lot more use than learning all the intricate features.

What flashgun do you have?
Also, what venue is the gig?

 

[jimmy83]

For autofocus I use single point AF in one shot focus mode. For gigs, the fancy AF system doesn't need any changes, so don't worry yourself. Treat it like your 40D just with more AF points.

I did try servo mode but found in changing light it didn't do so well. Plus, if you use the AF assist beam on the flash, this does not fire in Servo!

If you want to spend time with it, spend it learning how to change the ISO & shutter speed on the fly without looking at the camera. That will be a lot more use than learning all the intricate features.

What flashgun do you have?
Also, what venue is the gig?

Thanks again, the venue has just been refurbed actually and they always have bands on there. So I reckon it will be pretty good! Its sold out-100 people in there or so.

Ive got a Youngun one and a 430 ii which I will use.

 

[Steve Smith]

A common mistake with taking photographs in a dark environment (gigs, outside at night, theatres, etc.) is believing a meter reading.

A meter is designed to try to render all scenes as about 18% reflectance. Therefore, an averaging or matrix meter will not know that the bulk of the image is dark and it will try to over expose by about one stop.

If you can spot meter off of someone and use those settings manually, you will not suffer from this problem.


Steve.

 

[jimmy83]

External flashguns do have another benefit when the light is low... AF assist beam. I have one of my customer settings on the dial including flash set not to fire, but external af assist ON. This helps greatly when the lights are poor quality...

Thats a great idea-how do you enable it?

 

[seriousrikk]

Thanks again, the venue has just been refurbed actually and they always have bands on there. So I reckon it will be pretty good! Its sold out-100 people in there or so.

Ive got a Youngun one and a 430 ii which I will use.

Sounds like an interesting place. Before I go to a new venue I see if there are already some photos online. Not to copy, just to get an idea of the lighting setup. Got a name of the place and I can have a look?

Thats a great idea-how do you enable it?

My flashgun is an older one (550EX), so doesn't have the full communication between camera. A newer one might work differently (ie, check first!)

I have to adjust two settings... Firstly custom function
C.Fn III :AF / Drive --> 11 --> set to 3: IR AF Assist beam only

I leave this setting permanent as it stops me firing the internal flash AF assist in error.

Then on the first menu screen, select 'Flash Control' and set flash firing to 'Disable'.

This should have your external AF assist firing without the flash. Leave the flash control menu highlighted, and if you want to enable flash you can do it in about three button presses (ie quickly).

 

[jimmy83]

Thanks, yeah sure its Eastney Cellars, Portsmouth.

Just a thought with the AF bean on tho-do you focus at the singer/performers head? Does that not annoy them?

 

[seriousrikk]

Had a quick look at the venue, you should be fine not using flash based on the shots on their site. If I were going there I would set myself up M mode starting ISO1600 F2.8 1/125 and see how it goes. First setting to adjust would be ISO (up or down, depending on lights).

The AF beam is not actually that bright, on the flashgun it just looks like a red dot and with the stage lighting peformers do not notice it. Some bands I have worked with say they hardly ever notice full flash so a little beam should be fine. Try it, get someone to point the rig at you with the af assist light on!

 

[jimmy83]

Had a quick look at the venue, you should be fine not using flash based on the shots on their site. If I were going there I would set myself up M mode starting ISO1600 F2.8 1/125 and see how it goes. First setting to adjust would be ISO (up or down, depending on lights).

Where?! I couldnt find any photos of the venue! Do you mean the few on there website?

The AF beam is not actually that bright, on the flashgun it just looks like a red dot and with the stage lighting peformers do not notice it. Some bands I have worked with say they hardly ever notice full flash so a little beam should be fine. Try it, get someone to point the rig at you with the af assist light on!

Ok cheers, I would like to try a few shots at least with flash I think to see the differences. Ive also done a few local nightclub shoots-and learnt alot form those. Some of those skills will cross over to gig photography aswell.

 

[Cagey75]

You're welcome ... :razz:

 

[seriousrikk]

Where?! I couldnt find any photos of the venue! Do you mean the few on there website?



Ok cheers, I would like to try a few shots at least with flash I think to see the differences. Ive also done a few local nightclub shoots-and learnt alot form those. Some of those skills will cross over to gig photography aswell.

Yep, the few on the website gave me enough info. The exif is intact for some of them so I got an idea of the exposure needed and just adjusted it for f2.8 lenses.

With flash, you biggest challenge is avoiding harsh shadows on the background. It's a small stage by the looks of it so it would be hard to avoid - but you drop your flash down to about -2 and try to keep the camera exposure Ok for ambient you can pop the artists without making it look over done.
Personally I don't like flash at all for gigs, but needs must occasionally.

 

[jimnomad]

Since I have upgraded it's been so much easier, D800 + 24-70 + 70-200 I used for the last few gigs and was really impressed with the ISO performance. I was shooting all the way through, from 1000 to 10K! and all usable images.

I'm searching for reviews on the iso for the D800 so I was happy with what I've read above!

Thanks Cagey75, I'll have a look at your images on flickr.

Cheers mate

Jim

 

[jimnomad]

I thought I was quoting a post from Cagey75 but it looks like I wrote all that myself!

Sorry mate!

 

[Cagey75]

No worries, at least you noticed my post

 

[jimnomad]

Can you tell I'm new here ha ha!

 

[jimmy83]

For autofocus I use single point AF in one shot focus mode. For gigs, the fancy AF system doesn't need any changes, so don't worry yourself. Treat it like your 40D just with more AF points.

Just to go back on this point, do you use zone AF at all?

Richard do you use spot metering aswell?

 

[jimmy83]

Great gig, few things I learnt tho...

keep noticing my lens would mist up once I take it to the store/setup room which was cooler than in the venue itself.
was very close to the stage, could of done with a wider angle lens
flash doesnt work well, takes away the ambient lighting


But really enjoyed it, working on the photos now

 

[Cagey75]

Well, if you'd read my post I pretty much said flash ruins a good gig shot. There was a lot of posting wasted on flash settings, no good gig photographer uses flash tbh.

 

[seriousrikk]

Well, if you'd read my post I pretty much said flash ruins a good gig shot. There was a lot of posting wasted on flash settings, no good gig photographer uses flash tbh.

Oh really?

Any good gig photographer uses whatever tools they have available and uses them well.

If the venue has lighting that is adequate, you don't need the flash. If the lighting is inadequate or non existant, and flash ruins a good gig shot, what would you suggest?

Flash is sometimes a necessary evil - if it's either flash the shot or don't get the shot then the solution is pretty simple - flash it.

 

[seriousrikk]

Just to go back on this point, do you use zone AF at all?

Richard do you use spot metering aswell?

I tend to use manual mode exclusively and take a judgement on the lighting while I'm shooting. I do have spot metering selected though, along with auto ISO.

By doing this my manual settings generally do not change, but when the flood the stage with light (as happens occasionally...) my camera dumps the ISO down to a lower setting instantly.

 

[seriousrikk]

Great gig, few things I learnt tho...

keep noticing my lens would mist up once I take it to the store/setup room which was cooler than in the venue itself.
was very close to the stage, could of done with a wider angle lens
flash doesnt work well, takes away the ambient lighting


But really enjoyed it, working on the photos now

If you enjoyed it, then that is what really matters.

Which lens did you use mostly?

Flash at gigs is hard to get right, really hard. But once you get a formula that works you can use it when you really need to. Btw, the formula changes between venues, as if it wasn't hard enough...

 

[lexie]

I'm gonna pitch in to the flash debate by saying flash at gigs is a major no-no for me. I know a couple of photographers who use flash(and use it well) but a lot of the time it can do more damage than good.
From a punters point of view too flashes going off at the front of the stage are a distraction I don't want if I'm paying to see a band I like. At festivals I've taken crowd shots with flash but never of an artist. Gig photographers in my book are there to get the job done without interfering with the gig itself...get in get your shots and leave without annoying anybody. Remember, people came to see the band/artist not you.

I shoot with a 5dc and before that a 30d, both of which have an ISO limit of 3200 so fast lenses are a must for me.

I'd ditch the 17-85 and get a 17-50/2.8 or similar, add a 50/1.8 or 35/2.0 and you should be good for local gigs in bars and clubs.

There's a lot of good advice on here about shooting gigs but to recap:

Use Servo AF and back button focus.
Use center AF point for improved accuracy.
Don't be afraid of high ISO.
Use manual mode and spot metering for consistent exposures, the semi-auto Av and Tv modes will give you wildly inconsistent results.
Try to keep your shutter speed up, a grainy shot is better than a blurry shot.
(I've had usable shots from as slow as 1/30th but this is a rare event, but if you have to don't be afraid to go slower than you normally would.)
Shoot RAW

 

[jimmy83]

If you enjoyed it, then that is what really matters.

oh yes loved it! Def wanna do it again

Which lens did you use mostly?

tamron 17-50 2.8

There's a lot of good advice on here about shooting gigs but to recap:

Use Servo AF and back button focus.
Use center AF point for improved accuracy.
Don't be afraid of high ISO.
Use manual mode and spot metering for consistent exposures, the semi-auto Av and Tv modes will give you wildly inconsistent results.
Try to keep your shutter speed up, a grainy shot is better than a blurry shot.
(I've had usable shots from as slow as 1/30th but this is a rare event, but if you have to don't be afraid to go slower than you normally would.)
Shoot RAW

Great advice

Here is a couple of quick edits...


http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=5336270#post5336270