"Heroin At Nevertell"

boyfalldown said:
I do get why Luke's excited about these, and they are good ideas well shot.

But they're nothing new, the Benettona dverts in the early 1990's where pushing things far more than these have and they aren't new ideas.

Don't get me wrong, I think as a set they're great, but I don't think they match the hype created around them
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Yeah maybe I shouldnt have worded my opening statement quite like that but to be fair I think the fact that the thread was 3 pages created alot of the hype.
 
Radiohead said:
As a fashion shoot i can see it, but i wonder who would use it to sell clothes. As a piece of social commentary it fails. It's fake and that's obvious.

Now, if you hadn't hyped the hell out of yourself i wouldn't be so harsh. But you did.

You're a good photographer. You don't need to vanish up your own arse.
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It's more of a case I think where a company would see the images, really like them and that i'm creative and stuff, like the style I work with and then use me.

It may not seem like it but I hate having debates on here but I just can't seem to help myself, I blame it on being an Aries. Anyway with the Benneton thing, yeah they pushed the boundaries more, I agree with that buts its a bit different. Yes drugs have been used before, everything has. However I have not seen anything quite like what I have done mainly with the model shots. I have seen a few sort of attempts but none as good (IMO). I got an idea and put my own twist on it which in my eyes makes it as original as anything can be these days. If this stuff though has been done before to a high standard and i've just missed then then i'll happily accept that.
 
I just want to say I'm really glad I posted the photo here, i'm still happy with the results but i'm definately going to shoot the family scene again and just go totally crazy with it. I've already got some things in mind. After that though I will move on to something else, i want to try and do a couple more things that take alot of planning before the end of the year.
 
lukewoodford said:
It's more of a case I think where a company would see the images, really like them and that i'm creative and stuff, like the style I work with and then use me.

It may not seem like it but I hate having debates on here but I just can't seem to help myself, I blame it on being an Aries. Anyway with the Benneton thing, yeah they pushed the boundaries more, I agree with that buts its a bit different. Yes drugs have been used before, everything has. However I have not seen anything quite like what I have done mainly with the model shots. I have seen a few sort of attempts but none as good (IMO). I got an idea and put my own twist on it which in my eyes makes it as original as anything can be these days. If this stuff though has been done before to a high standard and i've just missed then then i'll happily accept that.
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I think you're missing the point a little - everyone can see you're very talented, but have you never heard of 'trying too hard'?

People who do things that are genuinely 'edgy' and different aren't deliberately setting out to do something edgy and different, they are just doing it.
 
grum said:
I think you're missing the point a little - everyone can see you're very talented, but have you never heard of 'trying too hard'?

People who do things that are genuinely 'edgy' and different aren't deliberately setting out to do something edgy and different, they are just doing it.
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I dont believe this is trying to hard in the slightest. My works always quite creative but there is nothing wrong with pushing yourself hard. There are lots and lots of photographers on model mayhem better than me so there is nothing wrong with trying something a bit different to stand out more.
 
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lukewoodford said:
I dont believe this is trying to hard in the slightest. My works always quite creative but there is nothing wrong with pushing yourself hard. There are lots and lots of photographers on model mayhem better than me so there is nothing wrong with trying something a bit different to stand out more.
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You can never push yourself too hard, but you do need to step outside and keep yourself in check, who else will if you cant.

Keep going, Luke, don't stop, its your enthusiasm that will take you on your journey and keep you going forward,.

Its a learning curve, one that i hope your learning.

On a plus side, i love your work and would love to work with you, the things you are creating are right up my alley.
 
You are clearly very driven and I commend you for that - and I'm going to tell you the truth:

On a technical level I think these are very good and far beyond anything I am capable of.

On a "social commentary" level they leave me stone cold. As per all the other statements there is a disconnect between the models and the subject matter and not in a good way. I think you need to take it even further for that kind of juxtaposition to work i.e. if your models are going to be clean, beautiful and glamourous then everything else in the frame other than the drug paraphernalia also needs to be glossy. The drug needs to be the big elephant in the room and in these shots it's just not. The alternative is to try for a more real / documentary type approach but if you are going to do that then you will always be oershadowed by true documentary images that have been taken by other people.

The baby being involved is nothing new - it does add a different dimension but I don't think you have pushed the boundries at all.

These are very "heroin chic" - I don't think you have promoted drug use with these shots but they do glamourise the idea somewhat. I'm not going to criticise you for that but it's something to keep in mind.

EDIT - forgot to say - hype is rarely a good thing. That's all I have to say about that!
 
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lukewoodford said:
I dont believe this is trying to hard in the slightest. My works always quite creative but there is nothing wrong with pushing yourself hard. There are lots and lots of photographers on model mayhem better than me so there is nothing wrong with trying something a bit different to stand out more.
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I don't mean putting too much effort in...
 
I'm with the majority here - great images and technical excellence - just a bit too posed for me to make it work completely. As to being over-hyped, possibly, but I see it as someone who is obviously excited and passionate about his work - fair play and good luck with the next project.
 
Daysleeper40 said:
You are clearly very driven and I commend you for that - and I'm going to tell you the truth:

On a technical level I think these are very good and far beyond anything I am capable of.

On a "social commentary" level they leave me stone cold. As per all the other statements there is a disconnect between the models and the subject matter and not in a good way. I think you need to take it even further for that kind of juxtaposition to work i.e. if your models are going to be clean, beautiful and glamourous then everything else in the frame other than the drug paraphernalia also needs to be glossy. The drug needs to be the big elephant in the room and in these shots it's just not. The alternative is to try for a more real / documentary type approach but if you are going to do that then you will always be oershadowed by true documentary images that have been taken by other people.
The baby being involved is nothing new - it does add a different dimension but I don't think you have pushed the boundries at all.

These are very "heroin chic" - I don't think you have promoted drug use with these shots but they do glamourise the idea somewhat. I'm not going to criticise you for that but it's something to keep in mind.

EDIT - forgot to say - hype is rarely a good thing. That's all I have to say about that!
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I totally agree with the documenary approach, I could have easily got real addicts if I wanted to and the images would always be more powerful but thats not what I wanted. I wouldnt change the solo model ones of the guy and the glamour girl but I would definately make the family set more crazy.
 
lukewoodford said:
I totally agree with the documenary approach, I could have easily got real addicts if I wanted to and the images would always be more powerful but thats not what I wanted. I wouldnt change the solo model ones of the guy and the glamour girl but I would definately make the family set more crazy.
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Well what you wanted was to "push the boundries" - I think your vision (which you obviously feel you achieved with the solo shots) and what you say you were aiming to achieve are contradictory. The solo model shots that you wouldn't change don't push any boundries as far as I'm concerned (only my opinion of course) so I'd be interested to know how you feel they fit your brief?

I'm not trying to be argumentative btw - I like that you have put the effort in and are trying to further yourself. I just think your original message has been somewhat lost and it would be good for you to know where along the way that happened - so you can improve next time.
 
lukewoodford said:
or trying too hard.
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I'm trying to be helpful/constructive (and I'm certainly no expert) - as said, it's great that you are trying to push yourself and try new things, and you have a lot of talent - but a lot of people feel you have missed the mark with the concept.

Trying to be controversial just for the sake of it means you actually just end up being cliched. That's what I mean by trying too hard. Pushing this concept even further isn't really the answer imo.

I think if you just let your style develop more organically rather than trying to force hype and controversy into it will probably work out better in the long run - but what do I know.

btw my favourite of the set is 4 where the heroin theme isn't quite so obvious
 
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grum said:
I'm trying to be helpful/constructive (and I'm certainly no expert) - as said, it's great that you are trying to push yourself and try new things, and you have a lot of talent - but a lot of people feel you have missed the mark with the concept.

Trying to be controversial just for the sake of it means you actually just end up being cliched. That's what I mean by trying too hard. Pushing this concept even further isn't really the answer imo.

I think if you just let your style develop more organically rather than trying to force hype and controversy into it will probably work out better in the long run - but what do I know.
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I'd say this is pretty good advice actually (y)
 
grum said:
I'm trying to be helpful/constructive (and I'm certainly no expert) - as said, it's great that you are trying to push yourself and try new things, and you have a lot of talent - but a lot of people feel you have missed the mark with the concept.

Trying to be controversial just for the sake of it means you actually just end up being cliched. That's what I mean by trying too hard. Pushing this concept even further isn't really the answer imo.

I think if you just let your style develop more organically rather than trying to force hype and controversy into it will probably work out better in the long run - but what do I know.

btw my favourite of the set is 4 where the heroin theme isn't quite so obvious
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Ok I got ya now. Thank you, i'm taking it all onboard, can't say I agree with everything but taken on board.
 
Daysleeper40 said:
Well what you wanted was to "push the boundries" - I think your vision (which you obviously feel you achieved with the solo shots) and what you say you were aiming to achieve are contradictory. The solo model shots that you wouldn't change don't push any boundries as far as I'm concerned (only my opinion of course) so I'd be interested to know how you feel they fit your brief?

I'm not trying to be argumentative btw - I like that you have put the effort in and are trying to further yourself. I just think your original message has been somewhat lost and it would be good for you to know where along the way that happened - so you can improve next time.
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The initial thing I wanted to do was push the boundaries, so I came up with the heroin idea, the original thing was the have the glamour model girl actually wiht a needle and stuff although I realised this wouldnt push the boundaries really but I still loved the idea so I used it. It was the whole baby plaing on the floor thing while boyfriend and girlfriend ignore it and help each other jack up where I wanted to push the boundaries. I hope that clears that up.
 
Leaving aside all the BS surrounding your original thread ;), I would like to a make just a couple of comments about the photographs themselves.

1. The first image is absolutley stunning and slickly processed :naughty:. The meaning of this image is clear enough to me and I agree that you have neither overdone, nor underdone it. Superb!

2. #4 is also a winner for me. Your model has gone with an expression that we seldom see in photogrpahs of heroin addicts (real or otherwise), but is no doubt a very common sight during the early stages of taking a hit. If the guy was pictured sitting in a hotel room with this expression and the belt still around his arm, I'd interpret it as "herion chic" and probably dislike it intensely. Give his dismal surroundings in this picture, there is a strong 'balancing' factor at work here. To me, this tells a truer story about herion addiction than the same image would if the model was unconcious, or just looking 'monged out'. Inspired stuff!

3. I couldn't quite understand why you chose not to use make-up to create needle tracks on the arms of your models :thinking:. Given the lengths that you went to to make it all look realistic, I think that the lack of any marks on the arms (or feet, come to that) rather dilute the effect :|. Would it have looked too contrived if you'd done that :thinking:!? I don't think so, given that the whole scene was contrived anyway :shrug:.

4. The most important thing that wanted to say about these is something which might strike a chord with some of the other people who've seen lots of your work. These photographs were clearly 'Made by Luke Woodford'. :)

I've said it before, but you are unusual amongst photographers (on TP, at least) in that you have your own, clearly identifiable, signature style. This is a controversial thing for me to say, as I know that all of the techniques that you use (LR2 processing, de-saturated colours, jaunty camera angles, etc.) have been used by other people before and that a comment like this is bound to generate feelings of jealousy amongst some people who read this (frankly, I'm jealous of your skill and opportunities, myself ;)). Still, there's something about the way in which you bring all of these techniques together, coupled with your choice of models and locations, which creates a consistency to your work that people can easily recognise. If you want to become a 'famous' photographer, this is a very good starting point (y).
 
I'd also like to add that I wholeheartedly applaud Luke for managing to generate so much interest in his project - if only we could all get excited about everyone's images...

Someone mentioned these would make a good fashion project and that struck a chord - maybe that's your forte?
 
I'll come back and offer some proper thoughts later but just to pick up on Rob's comments, the first thing I thought about when I saw them was fashion photography.

Alright so the models look like models and not smack heads, but then fashion photography is generally like that. You should be applauded Luke, not only have you mastered the technical side of things but you had a vision and you went and did all of the things necessary to see it through to fruition. Maybe it wasn't perfectly how you wanted it but as someone who personally never gets things right first time it's a brilliant start if you choose to build on it for next time.
 
agreed with what other people have said, technically they're well executed but taking pushing the boundaries as the "brief" as it were i stick with what i originally said.

good bash at trying though :)
 
Flash In The Pan said:
In a similar vein (if you pardon the pun) Barnardo's
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Something occurred to me when looking at this link, and that was that Barnardo's were "pushing the boundries" in a context... so you could say that they were pushing the boundries of what is acceptable when advertising a charity that works with children... Luke I think that's what you just need to consider with your next project (which we will all await with interest!)... continue to try and push things but before you do put that aim into a context! I think if you had done this with this project it may have altered your execution of it or perhaps just the way you described it to people.

I think your technical and conceptual abilities really raised everyones expectations to extremely high levels when waiting to see this... that's a good thing as it shows the belief people have in you, you just need to know that you've got a lot to live up to when you hype something up in advance.

So next time don't push for pushing sake, do it because you have got under the skin of your subject and really know what message you want to put across. You very nearly lived up to the hype you created and I think some of the comments are perhaps eluding to the fact that the images are either a little naive about the realities of heroin addiction or just to "high fashion" and editorial if you know what I mean. :)
 
Blimey :eek:! Is this thread dead already - after all the hype :shrug:!?

[UNINTENTIONAL_BUMP/] ;)
 
A good set of photo's you have there and like most of the others I can't fault your technical ability nor your confidence (y) Most of my other comments have already beeen said but hey ho...

My main issue (imho, please don't take this as gospel) is that you have 2 distinct themes going on - one 'glamour' and one 'nitty-gritty' that don't work that well together. Imho it looks like a GAP advert more than anything else :D Which is no bad thing as it shows you clearly have the eye for what makes an image, but, again imho, I think you should do more research in to the subject matter before doing another shoot as you evidently put a lot of effort in to them.

For example, I wouldn't use a belt as a tourniquet, I'd use a medical tourniquet because that's generally what heroin users use, it's also at contrast with the environment which would add to the strength of the image. I'd ditch the gucci clothing, hair and make up etc and stick to faded jeans, old trainers, partially laced boots and long sleeve tops. FYI heroin can be injected in any vein, especially in between the toes (as it's harder for the public to see the marks) so maybe a shot showing this would create a stronger image.

Personally I don't like the baby, it show's (cheaply) that you're trying to get a reaction from the audience... the heroin abuse should be the focus here. You could follow the theme of babies/pregnancy and maybe have a pram or a babies toy slightly out of focus that would suggest the same thing but not slam it in the face of the audience.

Most abusers inject but rarely pass out in a t-shirt next to the window, especially in England as they’d be dead from hypothermia within hours, so the reality is they inject and then go to bed, have a cup of tea or go to work. I appreciate this isn't as exciting but it would make for a more realistic image. You could explore this further but taking the scene outside with a small make shift fire and mattress or even in a hotel/at work and explore how 'users' cope with everyday life.

I guess my overall point is that heroin abuse in just not cool, it's life destroying for all involved and if you could emulate the depravation, depression and futility of the addiction in your images I feel you would hit on a nerve much more close to home with the general public.

As it stands your pics appear, imo, to give heroin addiction a commercial feeling and even portray it as cool, I'm not really okay with that and doubt many others would be too. Great photography is, imo, not just a matter of garnering a reaction it's trying to garner that reaction in a clever way.

Great technical ability though and I think, with the right subject matter, you could have a stunning set for your portfolio.

All CC and no offence meant, I think you're defo on the right track ;)

edit - spelling
 
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Great work....I like the website and also great choice of music...compliments the slide shows very well...Bravo
 
Technically fine, but the image to me does nothing and is something that has been done before with better results. As has said it's trying to be controversial and being very obvious in your way of doing it, and your photos portray you are trying to do something you have little knowledge of your subject material.

The other thing is you saying you are going to go "Crazy" with it next time. People wanting their ideas to be crazy usually end up being the opposite, at least that is my experience. It is very easy to say you are going to be different, but to do it is the hard bit, good job of taking it on the chin though and taking comments on board, fingers crossed you make it, but be careful don't disappear up your own hype!

For some of the best work on drugs, look at 9th Floor by Jessica Dimmock

Warning: NSFW!

http://www.mediastorm.com/publication/the-ninth-floor
 
ding76uk said:
For some of the best work on drugs, look at 9th Floor by Jessica Dimmock

Warning: NSFW!

http://www.mediastorm.com/publication/the-ninth-floor
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Wow, thanks for sharing that link...that explains better than any of us could why it just doesn't work having glamorous models in nice clothes with perfect skin in this shoot! Hope Luke takes the 13 minutes to watch the whole thing, quite moving!
 
Yep, Carl, that's a cracking shout. Lots of other interesting stories on there too. Nice one.
 
ding76uk said:
Technically fine, but the image to me does nothing and is something that has been done before with better results. As has said it's trying to be controversial and being very obvious in your way of doing it, and your photos portray you are trying to do something you have little knowledge of your subject material.

The other thing is you saying you are going to go "Crazy" with it next time. People wanting their ideas to be crazy usually end up being the opposite, at least that is my experience. It is very easy to say you are going to be different, but to do it is the hard bit, good job of taking it on the chin though and taking comments on board, fingers crossed you make it, but be careful don't disappear up your own hype!

For some of the best work on drugs, look at 9th Floor by Jessica Dimmock

Warning: NSFW!

http://www.mediastorm.com/publication/the-ninth-floor
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And to add to this, gritty models within a derelict building aren't pushing the boundaries...
 
ding76uk said:
Technically fine, but the image to me does nothing and is something that has been done before with better results. As has said it's trying to be controversial and being very obvious in your way of doing it, and your photos portray you are trying to do something you have little knowledge of your subject material.

The other thing is you saying you are going to go "Crazy" with it next time. People wanting their ideas to be crazy usually end up being the opposite, at least that is my experience. It is very easy to say you are going to be different, but to do it is the hard bit, good job of taking it on the chin though and taking comments on board, fingers crossed you make it, but be careful don't disappear up your own hype!

For some of the best work on drugs, look at 9th Floor by Jessica Dimmock

Warning: NSFW!

http://www.mediastorm.com/publication/the-ninth-floor
Click to expand...

Sorry to be the lone voice of dissent here, but aren't we supposed to be photographers discussing photographic skills :shrug:?

I looked at the photographs in that link and with one or two exceptions, I didn't see any well composed or well executed images (frankly, some of them are just very poor 'grab shots' :|). Quite honestly, anyone with basic knowledge of how to operate a camera could have taken those same shots. The 'skill', 'kudos' (or whatever positive term you care to choose) in those photographs, lies in the fact that Jessica Dimmock took the time to get to know her subjects, put herself in the right (dangerous) place at the right time to capture the images and used very good judgement about what to photograph and publish. For that alone, I'm as in awe of her work as anyone else here and applaud her heartily :clap:.

Her pictures certainly tell a powerful, true and rather tragic story. As photo journalism, they are very praise-worthy (IMO); as 'art'/creative imagery, they offer very little (again, IMO :|). Then for all I know, she may be an otherwise highly accomplished portrait/fashion/landscape :)shrug:) photographer who just chose to 'dumb it down' for this assignment :|.

I didn't get the impression that Luke Woodford was trying to pass himself off as photo journalist, so I don't really see the need for this sort of comparison. The bottom line though, for me (now that the comparison has been made), is that I would definitely want to look at Luke's images again (and again) - Jessica's, not so :|.

Anyway, I'm tired of seeming to be a sycophant (I'm not, BTW ;)), defending Luke at every turn. It's just that in my opinion, he's one of the most exciting new photographers that we have on this forum and yet the general tone of these posts seems to have turned to assasinating his character/motives, rather than actually discussing his images and their visual qualities.

In fact, I have a very strong suspicion that if these pictures had been posted here by any other TP member, without all of the fanfare of Luke's OP, we'd be looking at 10+ pages of solid congratulations :cautious: .....

[/RANT]
 
Oh Andy I do get what you're saying however I think that everyone here has explained to Luke that their response to these images is very much influenced by the hype he chose to create and therefore it's irrelevant how we'd have responded if someone else had posted them... I also think that Luke puts himself across as someone who can take CC and wants to keep learning and developing and that's why people feel comfortable being honest with him.

I think (for me at least) the comparison with Jessica merely illustrates two thing, firstly that he isn't pushing any boundary... which was part of his original objective and secondly that he shows a lack of understanding of the subject matter. No one has question his ability to get it technically correct...in fact his repeatedly been complimented on that side of things throughout.
 
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