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Linux why?
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1. It's not easier, it's just what the majority of people use due to historically clever marketing strategies so "seems" easier because it's what everyone is taught.
Same argument for points 2 3 and 4.
LongLensPhotography
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I would say exactly the OPPOSITE to all your points.
1. No not really. As a mac user, I find windows messy at best. Even the command line is crippled in windows when you want it as a last resort.
2. Less support? You must be joking. The entire IT budgets are spent on support, cleaning viruses, restoring data and training users. Linux won't be much different except for viruses and software purchase costs.
3. Sometimes there is more, sometimes there is less. Linux is certainly better for free high quality apps.
4. No, no, and probably no. Viruses, crashes, no more updates, upgrade costs, annoying interface...
It is easy to close your eyes and run like a headless chicken scared of OS change. Only iOS is worse than Windows, yet somehow it is taking over the IT world. If linux/android doesn't succeed the future is not very bright or free.
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No, not trolls, just people who think they know what they are on about, but clearly don't...
1. As a single computer Mac User
. Which is easiest to network, setup a network with roaming profiles, shared resources etc. New PC arrives here, join domain, log on and wait and everything is done thanks to Group Policy. If I need specific software I can use Windows Deployment Services with images across the network.2. Maybe in the 90s and maybe with companys running older tech. We haven't had to fix an infected computer here in 15 years, no need to restore data and minimal training.
3. There is more Windows software. You cannot dispute this. Linux/OSX is better for free high quality? It depends on your definition of quality. Please tell me some heavily used software that is also available on Linux/OSX and performs better on Linux/OSX (Adobe offerings are the same).
4. Viruses? Not had one, crashes - Hardly ever, we have some buggy software (Nitro PDF) which causes us to restart 1 machine once a week. Updates - yes, is linux never updated?. Upgrade costs - none (check out Microsoft MAPS).
Companies will choose what is the most cost effective for them. This may not be the initial cost, it may not be software licensing, it is the long term productivity, ease of use and interoperability of the business. Employees will then use that system at home as it is familier and allows them to transfer files easily etc. etc.
Rose tinted, limited view goggles anyone?
LongLensPhotography
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1. As a single computer Mac User
2. Maybe in the 90s and maybe with companys running older tech. We haven't had to fix an infected computer here in 15 years, no need to restore data and minimal training.
3. There is more Windows software. You cannot dispute this. Linux/OSX is better for free high quality? It depends on your definition of quality. Please tell me some heavily used software that is also available on Linux/OSX and performs better on Linux/OSX (Adobe offerings are the same).
4. Viruses? Not had one, crashes - Hardly ever, we have some buggy software (Nitro PDF) which causes us to restart 1 machine once a week. Updates - yes, is linux never updated?. Upgrade costs - none (check out Microsoft MAPS).
Companies will choose what is the most cost effective for them. This may not be the initial cost, it may not be software licensing, it is the long term productivity, ease of use and interoperability of the business. Employees will then use that system at home as it is familier and allows them to transfer files easily etc. etc.
Rose tinted, limited view goggles anyone?
I don't know where to start. The companies and universities I were with had a fair share of viruses and downtime thanks specifically to windows OS and difficulty of properly managing one. Maybe your company got lucky or hasn't discovered the infection yet? Windows has to be completely stripped and loaded with extra software to make it passable. How good is that?
The software costs are also ridiculous, hence most are stuck with XP and hence this debate.
Perhaps it should be obvious that open source performs best on open OS. Proprietary freeware for windows typically comes with some extra treats, and then you are paying for overpriced shareware utilities. Even things like MS office is not really needed. Most workers type up hardly more than plain text reports. Does that warrant the expense of MS suite? NO! Adobe... well start using linux and they will release photoshop fairly quickly.
The reason why MS gets picked is anything but what you suggested. So called technological consultancies and affiliated IT bosses or incompetent CEOs will always push windows just because they have to / everyone else uses it. It is not a secret that MS made big financial incentives for vendors and used monopoly tactics to suppress competitors.
Anyway, as I mentioned windows is a dying breed. Almost dead at homes already. Expect to see iOS replacing all of that in a few years. And to make it clear this is not a sight I want to see.
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MS Windows was declared a monopoly by the courts. And in the Office and business markets MS still have a massive percentage. Thankfully not in phones. But that has less to do with the Office document formats.
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Heaven forbid anyone actually pay for software that they use.
LongLensPhotography
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twist and turn my words? However, some poor proprietary ftp client or even MS Office are usually better replaced with free and open software, reinvesting money to wages and infrastructure while supporting proper ISO standard data formats and transfer protocols.
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But all of those things are available on Windows too as it is the most widely supported operating system out there. I don't see your point....
I run Windows 7 and a host of free software ontop of it (as do a lot of my colleagues). About the only software that isn't free is MS Office (which I keep for compatibility and was a few £ as part of an employee license) and Lightroom (I'm still on 4 here as I don't see any need to upgrade to 5). Everything else I use (as far as I remember - I may be wrong) is Open Source/GPL'd or freeware. The only "saving" is the cost of the operating system which is factored into the purchase price of the computer anyway (and yes, I know you can get it back if you revoke the license). Other than the corporate installs of tools, my works PC is the same. Most things I use on a day-to-day basis are free via some license or other.
So.. total saving is maybe £70/new computer on the OS and very low Office suite cost. You expect to retrain people who are familiar with Windows and who are NOT techies for £70?
LongLensPhotography
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win 8 and iOS are far more radical departure in UI than linux or mac... Everyone seems to be fine with that. Maybe just I don't get iOS...
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I'm late to the party, and thought I'd missed some fun. Then I started reading.
Background - I'm no IT professional (lab-based scientist) and I use all the main OSs: various versions of Windows for accounting and photography, OSX for work, Linux for home personal stuff. It's this last category that Linux excels in, for me, because it's reasonably stable, reasonably resistant to viruses etc, allows me to choose my desktop and if I get bored, I can switch distros for free with just a few hours fiddling. It's one of the few ways of still enjoying computers as a hobby and trying stuff out. If you have a full licensed copy of Office then that can be run under WINE, as can some other windows apps.
The downsides? Well, not all hardware is compatible, although that's also true of windows (my 7YO Creative sound card card won't work in Windows 8 because Creative have made it obsolete). Sometimes an update will come along that breaks the system, and without a backup, that really can mean losing everything, although that can happen with the other OSs too. But the biggest disadvantage is that some software isn't available for Linux, and that's why I run my home machine dual-boot, so I can use Lightroom. Raw Therapee, GIMP, DigiKam, Darktable etc are simply not as good as Lightroom, and that's the end of it.
TBH Linux should have really taken over the consumer desktop market by now, but there's a kind of snobbery that makes many linux users want to be a bit 'special' and that's a key reason why it's only taken a tiny %age of the desktop market. While it works quite differently from windows 'under the hood' the vast majority of ordinary users never go under the hood with windows either, so that makes no odds. Android is a great example of what can be achieved if you decide to make Linux into a popular OS that everyone will use.
Background - I'm no IT professional (lab-based scientist) and I use all the main OSs: various versions of Windows for accounting and photography, OSX for work, Linux for home personal stuff. It's this last category that Linux excels in, for me, because it's reasonably stable, reasonably resistant to viruses etc, allows me to choose my desktop and if I get bored, I can switch distros for free with just a few hours fiddling. It's one of the few ways of still enjoying computers as a hobby and trying stuff out. If you have a full licensed copy of Office then that can be run under WINE, as can some other windows apps.
The downsides? Well, not all hardware is compatible, although that's also true of windows (my 7YO Creative sound card card won't work in Windows 8 because Creative have made it obsolete). Sometimes an update will come along that breaks the system, and without a backup, that really can mean losing everything, although that can happen with the other OSs too. But the biggest disadvantage is that some software isn't available for Linux, and that's why I run my home machine dual-boot, so I can use Lightroom. Raw Therapee, GIMP, DigiKam, Darktable etc are simply not as good as Lightroom, and that's the end of it.
TBH Linux should have really taken over the consumer desktop market by now, but there's a kind of snobbery that makes many linux users want to be a bit 'special' and that's a key reason why it's only taken a tiny %age of the desktop market. While it works quite differently from windows 'under the hood' the vast majority of ordinary users never go under the hood with windows either, so that makes no odds. Android is a great example of what can be achieved if you decide to make Linux into a popular OS that everyone will use.
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in 1998! I think things may have moved on a little by now..
Interesting Ancient Mariner, linux for the desktop. I prefer it for the infrastructure, files servers, nas, firewalls, web servers etc, but for ease of support we'll put in Windows servers and desktops, mainly as it's a well developed, integrated product that everyone can easily use (and administer).
Lets not forget I can employ 3 windows support techy's for the price of one Unix bearded guru
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I posted earlier that I use Linux for some CNC router software which is not available on any other platform. This is some software written by the American National Institute of Standards and Technology which was originally written just to control automated movements for testing but someone went crazy and developed it into a full blown CNC routing programme with some of the best documentation I have ever seen for any software - in fact for anything.
And as it was written by a government department, US law means that it is automatically public domain - so the price is right!
If anyone is interested: http://www.linuxcnc.org/
Steve
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I didn't realise that Android was a version of Linux interesting
Most people I know use a tablet of some kind for computing rather than a desktop or laptop obviously for photo editing a tablet isn't yet as good
LongLensPhotography
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I didn't realise that Android was a version of Linux interesting
Most people I know use a tablet of some kind for computing rather than a desktop or laptop obviously for photo editing a tablet isn't yet as good
Android uses linux kernel (with some mods) and shares a fair bit of other GNU code. The UI is all different, but still open source. There we go - it can't be that "bad"
The reason why editing is not great on tablets is fairly low power CPU and less memory. I don't think most people need editing large RAWs to professional standard - so it's not a priority. Playing HD movies, web browsing, games and note taking - are.
Let's look at it from a different angle...
I am a muggle and don't know about PCs. I take the advice and install a Linux distro on my PC and download an open office derivative.
All goes fine, then a year later my PC won't boot. Where do I go? Who can fix it? I need my files, I don't have a backup.
What do they do in this situation? What face to face support is available? What will Dell do when you phone them up?
I am a muggle and don't know about PCs. I take the advice and install a Linux distro on my PC and download an open office derivative.
All goes fine, then a year later my PC won't boot. Where do I go? Who can fix it? I need my files, I don't have a backup.
What do they do in this situation? What face to face support is available? What will Dell do when you phone them up?
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Oh and FYI I have been in that situation with a web server thanks to cpanel. It blocked updates on certain parts. Other parts got updates and were no longer compatible, cue a dead server on restart. 18 hours downtime until we found a Linux guru who had the server up in 30min.
We then switched to Windows hosting for our sites.
We then switched to Windows hosting for our sites.
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A bootable USB or distro CD will let you boot up your PC again. These boot CDs/USBs are how most people start with Linux. Some have a variety of tools, like for fixing your boot sector. They also use them to sort out MS Windows in the same situation as they are good at detecting the hardware and booting reliably..
There is also plenty of online help. Although most are freaky nerds that will get you to "go deep" with scary commands as they don't know the easy ways to fix things. One of the biggest problem, with Linux from my perspective.
There is also plenty of online help. Although most are freaky nerds that will get you to "go deep" with scary commands as they don't know the easy ways to fix things. One of the biggest problem, with Linux from my perspective.
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LongLensPhotography
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Plenty of backup solutions are readily available for linux. It is easy to boot linux live from USB key, etc, log in to your broken system and fix things in minutes. There is plenty of info on internet easy to find with google. There are books (OMG - books and reading, no that is too much to ask for!) There is NO excuse really.
Now windows. Real life example. My mum (very basic user) had new Win7 laptop. 3 months later she killed the OS completely. I have no idea how but she did it. She was lucky I put linux on it alongside. She is still happy and hasn't touched windows in 2 years. My dad (more experience) also runs linux, because windows in the end didn't work out. I didn't force them to use linux, it was their choice.
Kill windows and without a backup your only easy chance of data recovery is via nothing else but linux. That is pretty funny, isn't it? But then no back up is very very silly and you know that. Perhaps this is where you get an iPad instead.
LongLensPhotography
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If you remove scary freaks from the image the basic command line usage is not that difficult to grasp. Like you say anything harder is probably already online waiting to be found.
What you need to know is as simple as:
su
apt-get -f install
apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade (debian / ubuntu base systems - solve 95% of all problems)
then perhaps cd and chroot if you really really messed up. Sometimes there will be a line in /etc/fstab or updating boot loader. Now we covered 99% of all problems. Lets not forget 'reboot' and we are good to go. All this can fit on an A5 sheet of paper with space to spare. All of this can be done remotely if ssh or similar is running. In contrast your windows is dead in the water if you think you need an equivalent command.
It is all about education and public perception. Imagine if you couldn't access your car internals and would have to buy new engine every time.
LongLensPhotography
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In some limited cases it might. Chances are that will be disabled or ineffective since proper back up must be on a different drive. Try reinstalling and you will be formatting your data. What a great idea to keep personal files and OS on the same place by default!
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Does windows repair a messed up boot sector by itself?
Precisely that is going to scare most people away. In many cases, the user has already gone through a trauma searching online to find the information with unfamiliar terminology, not in the user realm. He then pastes in some gobbledegook he was given in a forum. A whole load of text scrolls up his screen. He doesn't know if the command worked or not. You see this a lot in the forums. If he hasn't already given up, he pastes all the text back into the forum. and the guy will say, Oh, did you do a so and so first? Whats a so and so?. And so he gets the next command to paste in. Working blindly this way is not learning. And in most cases not necessary. If only the geek knew the easy way. The command line is a terrible UI for non-techies, with no learnability or discover-ability, no obvious undo. No clear or consistent feedback. Hidden commands. Hidden and inconsistent command options. No familiar terms and places to go. It's just too far removed from what normal users have ever seen. Sadly it's advice like that that scares the bajingos out of people and keeps Linux out of the mainstream. Take a look at what Android has achieved in comparison.
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This thread is funny.......
On a sidenote, you did make me chuckle with saying apt-get solves 95% of problems - in my experience, that's what causes 95% of problems
Bzzt... no... most distributions disallow su (or at least make it difficult) sudo is much preferred because it allows finer grained permissions granting...
On a sidenote, you did make me chuckle with saying apt-get solves 95% of problems - in my experience, that's what causes 95% of problems
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A disparate set of "one man and his dog" ROMs where not everything is supported and 900626 ways of doing the same thing. Often, things taken for granted elsewhere (e.g. media playback) can be problematic due to every manufacturer having a different method of supporting it.
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I've never had to use that apt get stuff ever. The software manager lets you browse, preview, search, install and deinstall programs without having to research, discover and memorise commands and names of programs and command modifiers. And can even sync your list of installed programs between machines. All this has made Linux usable for many people. I guess the latest Windows will be following their long lead.
?? Most online Android help will be for normal users with little or no suggestions you use a command line. Essential if it is to be taken up by the masses.
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I suspect that's much more influenced by you than you think (or at least are willing to admit to).... I would hazard a guess that they do very little more than browse, email and a few DTP tasks - which any OS will do if you know where to point and click.
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I didn't say that. What I said was there are lots of ways to do things which lead to fragmentation. Just look at the issues people have getting full frame-perfect media playback with something like xbmc (go and look on xbmc.org and see the sorts of issues people have). And you often end up at the command line if you need to do more complex stuff like rooting the device.
BTW: you do use apt-get, it's just hidden behind some gui. Personally, I can't stand guis - they just get in the way.
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I see. My Android comment was about the usability. So I was confused by your answer. But anyway fragmentation is not an issue to normal Android.
And likewise, keeping to the OP world, average users prefer GUIs for the reasons I mentioned above. The command line UI will get in the way.
And likewise, keeping to the OP world, average users prefer GUIs for the reasons I mentioned above. The command line UI will get in the way.
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I do not specifically recommend using command line for everyday work. However if things go badly wrong it is very nice to know it is still there for the rescue and it works. An option of reinstalling is a lot more painful indeed.
If we look at android I did end up using a lot of CLI first to get the damn thing rooted, and then killing the adds. OK, I didn't play by the rules there
. The alternative was paying £40 for some scary bloke in a shop.It is a big loss for the society that people aren't educated to use command line for a mere 1 hour or encouraged to THINK. I am not even getting close to coding. Point and click or tap and swipe is not always the best or the most productive option. Perhaps we are heading towards IT service station era, where the users can't solve any problems themselves. There will be problems with ANY OS or hardware.
yeah, so what? Windows should have handled this just fine then?
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From what you said, Windows handled it fine. It was just trashed by your mum in some unknown way and sounds like they got #1 techie son to fix it who suggested linux and they went with it as he obviously knows what he's doing....
LongLensPhotography
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She had windows AND linux to begin with, so she moved on... I wasn't even there to tell her. She didn't ask me or a bloke with long hair to fix windows
Would I suggest to switch if asked - yes, every time. Would I force anything to anyone? No. Some of my relatives run XP and IE riddled with issues and it is their choice to fanatically continue with it no matter what. Does it make my life any more difficult or do I lose sleep over it? No.
Oh, and one more thing for XP lovers. Did anyone notice a lot of recent software is incompatible with XP? Perhaps it's time to move to linux or upgrade. Either, or - I really don't care.
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It's not in any way clever to use the command line. The clever user is learning using tools appropriate to the area he is expert in. Like photo PP. It is cleverer to spend time learning stuff useful for the user than a UI designed for someone doing a different task. If you are going to be maintaining PCs all day, you might need different tools from a photographer. Where one click can carry out many commands and being highly productive.
Most Linux distros are putting a lot of effort into making good GUIs. These people know about usability. It's the well meaning, but ill informed nerds in the help forums who are not interested in usability or looking into UIs appropriate to the users that come there for help. They are just suggesting tools they prefer. Even though an easy way is available that they may not know about.
And it's not just one hour you need. You can lose many, many hours following suggestions from people that don't work. And you are not even getting near to the principles behind it.
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It isn't if all you want to do is browse and write e-mails (which is fundamentally all I use Android for on my phone).
Yeah, probably, but at the end of the day, all it is doing is hiding the command line from you. The problem with quite a few GUIs is some only do the basics and leave you to fend for yourself when things get more complex.