Modelling lights in strobes - are they crappy or crucial ?

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martin.

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martin
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Hi
I'd appreciate some advice (and I apologise in advance for the length of the post).

To date, I've only used speedlights with relatively small modifiers, but I am now planning to invest in 1 or 2 strobes as well as an octobox and a beauty dish, as I'm keen to develop my indoor and outdoor portrait photography skills further, and potentially try doing some product photography as well (...i always do like to keep my short-term goals hopelessly unrealistic).
I know you can potentially use speedlights with larger modifiers, but there seem to be better options nowadays with less of a compromise. And as I'm not going away on holiday this year, I've decided to splurge and buy some new gear, and spend my time off work developing my skills.

I'm relatively new to portrait photography and therefore I still have a lot to learn about shaping light round people's faces. I was really interested to see how Peter Hurley used the Profoto D1 (?) modelling lamp to preview how the light would shape the subject's face in his Illuminating the Face tutorial. It seemed pretty useful - in fact, a lot more useful than the comments on forums concerning modelling lamps would lead me to believe.

Unfortunately, a Profoto D1 is way out of my price range. It looks a good light, but I cannot justify the cost, even a second hand one.

Having read a lot of v positive reviews on this forum, I was planning to buy the Godox AD360II due to the good pricing, its portability and light weight, as well as the HSS/TTL capabilities which will come in handy from time to time (particularly on location). It has pretty much everything I want…but it doesn’t have a modelling lamp.

As an alternative to the AD360ii, I considered the Godox AD600B along with the separate head unit, the H600. However, it only has a 10W LED modeling lamp, which I'm guessing is about 75W tungsten at best, which sounds very low powered if I then put it inside a modifier, and therefore it probably won't help me when i'm trying to experiment with different modifiers on a mannequin.

I also thought about the new Godox QT600ii , which has a 150W modeling lamp. Admittedly, I could only use it in the studio but my budget might stretch to a QT600ii and a AD360ii, if I really thought the QT600ii modeling lamp was going to help me in my progression.

I'm keen to get the thoughts of more experienced photographers.
My questions are:
(i) How useful are modelling lamps for photographers wanting to learn to shape light on people's faces ?
(ii) Will a 150W modeling lamp be powerful enough when put in a 20 inch beauty dish, or (gulp) a 4 foot octabox
(iii) Are there any other strobe options that I should consider ?
(iii) Any other practical suggestions for learning how to shape light better ? (other than practice, practice, practice and watch youtube)

i hope you can help me out with your thoughts,

martin.
 
Modelling lamps are incredibly helpful, if they are bright enough - but I would say from a lot of personal experience that anything less than 150 is too little, unless you shoot virtually in the dark, which means excluding all ambient light..

Bear in mind that the purpose of a modelling lamp is to show you where the shadows will fall, it does not give a true indication of the depth of the shadows, unless of course you shoot with absolutely no other light present. The reason for this, rather obviously, is that any ambient light that is present will make the shadow areas look less dark than they actually are, visually - but when you take the shot, neither the ambient light nor the modelling lamp will make a scrap of difference, and the shadows will therefore be much deeper than they appear to be.

And, for the same reason, my modelling lamps are always either on full power or they are off - I've never understood why some people think that modelling lamps that are proportional to the power set on the flash are in some way useful.

Moving on to your other questions...

11. Yes
111. Any mains powered flash that has fan cooling
111 (2). There are relatively few YouTube videos actually worth watching on this subject. I frequently look at videos, often produced by "celebrity" photographers where it is very obvious that the lighting they show cannot have produced their example shots, which have been very obviously retouched to hell and back. Some of these deceptive videos are produced on behalf of a certain lighting manufacture that seems to think that it's customers can't see their deception, some are produced by lost sheep masquerading as sheepdogs photography trainers who con people and others seem to be produced by idiots who think that they're experts. If you want to learn how to shape with light, there are basically a few simple and very good ways of doing it
a. Think about the angles of light that flatter any given shape, and you will then realise that although there are no immutable laws about it, light that comes from above and in front of where the face is pointing is natural and flattering.
b. Think about how many suns there are on this planet (hint, there's just one) so keep the number of lights in use to an absolute minimum. The key light is the one that does nearly all the work, you may also have a (subtle) fill light, maybe a rimlight or a backlight too, and maybe a hairlight, but these should never dominate the scene and must never compete with the key light.
c. Don't be afraid of shadow.. Lighting is about the creation of shadow, not about its absence. It's a very common beginner fault to surround the subject with light and to use bigger and bigger modifiers in an attempt to obviate shadow.
d. Practice on still life subjects - a variety of found objects that are lying around, and learn how to light them differently to produce different effects. Still life subjects work because... they keep still. If you practice on a human subject they will never be in exactly the same postion in more than one shot, and this will make the learning process much more difficult than it needs to be.
 
thanks for the prompt reply garry, that's really helpful.

i particularly liked the comment about proportional power being relatively useless, as until now i was thinking that feature would have been a real boon to me (sucker to good marketing that i am).

thanks.
 
martin. said:
Hi
I'd appreciate some advice (and I apologise in advance for the length of the post).

To date, I've only used speedlights with relatively small modifiers, but I am now planning to invest in 1 or 2 strobes as well as an octobox and a beauty dish, as I'm keen to develop my indoor and outdoor portrait photography skills further, and potentially try doing some product photography as well (...i always do like to keep my short-term goals hopelessly unrealistic).
I know you can potentially use speedlights with larger modifiers, but there seem to be better options nowadays with less of a compromise. And as I'm not going away on holiday this year, I've decided to splurge and buy some new gear, and spend my time off work developing my skills.
Click to expand...

Yes, and there always have been better options than speedlites - studio heads, with mains power for fast recycling (more important than you might think for portraits), a modeling lamp, and more power if you need it. They're not expensive either starting at little over £100 for something like the very capable Lencarta Smartflash-2.

I'm relatively new to portrait photography and therefore I still have a lot to learn about shaping light round people's faces. I was really interested to see how Peter Hurley used the Profoto D1 (?) modelling lamp to preview how the light would shape the subject's face in his Illuminating the Face tutorial. It seemed pretty useful - in fact, a lot more useful than the comments on forums concerning modelling lamps would lead me to believe.

Unfortunately, a Profoto D1 is way out of my price range. It looks a good light, but I cannot justify the cost, even a second hand one.
Click to expand...

Profoto is top-end professional gear. Very nice it is too but you don't need to spend anything like that kind of money to get excellent results. Profotos have excellent modelling lamps, small but very bright and positioned close to the flash tube. What you see with this design is as close as it gets to the actual flash. At the other extreme, other heads use much larger bulbs that are not exactly the same as the actual flash, though most of the time they will be close enough. In a softbox for example, the front diffuser evens everything out, but in a beauty dish where the exact position of the light source and the deflector are critical, they won't be. Don't worry about it though - use the modelling lamp for accurate positioning and assess subtleties by taking a snap and checking the camera's LCD.

Having read a lot of v positive reviews on this forum, I was planning to buy the Godox AD360II due to the good pricing, its portability and light weight, as well as the HSS/TTL capabilities which will come in handy from time to time (particularly on location). It has pretty much everything I want…but it doesn’t have a modelling lamp.

As an alternative to the AD360ii, I considered the Godox AD600B along with the separate head unit, the H600. However, it only has a 10W LED modeling lamp, which I'm guessing is about 75W tungsten at best, which sounds very low powered if I then put it inside a modifier, and therefore it probably won't help me when i'm trying to experiment with different modifiers on a mannequin.

I also thought about the new Godox QT600ii , which has a 150W modeling lamp. Admittedly, I could only use it in the studio but my budget might stretch to a QT600ii and a AD360ii, if I really thought the QT600ii modeling lamp was going to help me in my progression.
Click to expand...

Battery powered systems are great for location work, but they're expensive, recycle slower than mains power, and tend to have weaker modelling lamps. Some of them are next to useless, though most are okay in a darkened studio (hopeless outdoors in daylight). I have tested dozens of these things for my work and unfortunately the stated wattage is only loosely related to actual brightness.

I'm keen to get the thoughts of more experienced photographers.
My questions are:
(i) How useful are modelling lamps for photographers wanting to learn to shape light on people's faces ?
Click to expand...

I would say vital. You will also learn much more quickly. Try accurately positioning a speedlite with a snoot!

(ii) Will a 150W modeling lamp be powerful enough when put in a 20 inch beauty dish, or (gulp) a 4 foot octabox
Click to expand...

It'll be fine.

(iii) Are there any other strobe options that I should consider?
Click to expand...

At the affordable end, Bowens, Elinchrom and Lencarta offer best performance/value. There are plenty of other good brands around too, but nothing that's really any better for the money.

(iii) Any other practical suggestions for learning how to shape light better ? (other than practice, practice, practice and watch youtube)

i hope you can help me out with your thoughts,

martin.
Click to expand...

Frankly, for portraiture pretty much any flash unit can produce excellent results, in the right hands and with the right modifiers. Knowledge, understanding how light works, and experience are the key factors. The actual flash unit won't make much difference, but the modifers you use, and how you use them, absolutely will. Suggest you start with just one light and build from there - if you begin with say a three head kit, you'll end up in a mess of conflicting shadows and have no idea how to fix it. To learn more about the technical aspects, get hold of the book Light, Science & Magic https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product..._act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AZJADFZJS9SRB

Welcome to TP, good luck, and keep us posted :)
 
Not a lot to add to the above, other than...

Remember you're buying your first lights, it's unlikely you'll get something suitable for all your current and future lighting needs. Pick your start point and work from it.

If you take photography seriously you'll almost certainly end up with speedlights, studio flash and portable studio flash.

See above re one light, but buy a twin head kit from Lencarta as a starting point, speak to Garry on the phone, they'll swap out the bog standard softbox for one of your choice.

Think of your light source like a camera body, and your modifiers as lenses. Most newbies think all the money goes into the body but we all know that a selection of quality lenses is what makes the picture and what ate all our cash.
 
Jayst84 said:
I don't think that's the case for the majority of photographers in the world.
Click to expand...

Maybe not, but if you get serious with flash you will certainly need speedlites and studio heads, plus an option for high-powered outdoor shooting. I use a bunch of speedlites ganged together outdoors but it's not ideal. If I was starting again, I'd go straight for Godox AD600 heads for both studio and outdoor power, plus Godox speedlites (basically Mike Weeks' rig*). All options covered pretty well plus the huge advantage of one common trigger/remote-control device (y) Phottix is another brand offering the same option.

I like Phil's analogy - flash unit = camera, and light modifiers = lenses. None of us end up with the same camera outfit we started with, though we tend to stick to the same brand, ie the same lens mount. I would say the same applies to lighting, so S-fit or Elinchrom seems like a sensible starting point from a modifier mount point of view. On the other hand, a lot of modifiers have interchangeable mounts (like the excellent Lencarta Profold range) and I have a few of those, so could change horses with less financial pain. I have more cash invested in modifiers than light units and that's probably how it should be, or 50/50 at least.

*maybe a couple of mains studio heads as well :D
 
Firstly, I really want to thank everyone for the posts - they're genuinely helpful. It's always great when you stumble upon an internet forum that provides some insight as opposed to pedant's corner bickering.

It's also funny for me to recognise that as a beginner, I am falling into the trap of believing that the latest technology will make me a better photographer. A few years ago, I used to teach people to ski, and people often asked me for advice on buying ski gear, and they would typically come armed with long lists of the latest features and technologies (yep, material science is big in skis as well). I then normally explained that the skis I was personally using during my ski lessons were the crappiest pair of skis in the rental shop I could find as they were provided free of charge and I didn’t want to damage my good ones, and that despite this, I could ski down any run on the mountain quickly and under control. Ie technique is where you should invest, not the technology

By the same token, I'm realising that I probably shouldn’t focus too much on the technical specifications of photo gear, as I personally am much more likely to be the weakest part of the chain than any particular flash or camera component.
That said, I work in IT and realise that computing technology does advance year on year, and it still makes sense to try to get the biggest bang for your buck, even if I might not use 100% of the latest products' features.

I'll give Garry a call today. I had a look at the Lencarta website and I was really impressed. I particularly liked the modifiers section as I've also been looking around for a folding beauty dish and their new ones look exactly what I'm after.
And having recently tried (and failed) to speak to someone at Andoer regarding one of their products, I'd much rather buy from a local company. (btw, the main andoer website seems to have a support email address that bounces, as well as a defunct UK telephone number, …just in case anyone was under the misguided impression of getting support on one of their products).

As for the strobe itself, I'm edging towards the godox brand as I seem to be buying just at the time they have launched a suite of products in a new system (ie their new range has integrated controllers, and their newer strobes seem to have good flash duration/colour consistency characteristics, as well as TTL, HSS, etc).
That said, I certainly get the impression that Lencarta offer superior products as they seem to customise the generic brands to match the needs of working photographers (and correct me if I'm wrong on this one as I may be talking nonsense here), but at this particular moment in time, I'd likely be buying out of cycle (ie I get the impression they are likely going to launch new products in the coming months, and I'd kick myself if I bought something in the off-cycle). Thankfully, it looks like godox and lencarta are largely compatible, so I'm hopefully not going to ostracise myself from the brand in the longer term if I did buy godox now, and can still invest in lencarta gear over the longer term, as again, I'd rather buy from a local firm where possible. And in the meantime, I can still make use of their modifiers which look ideal.
(Caution - i might be talking total utter nonsense in that last paragraph, so if any newbie like myself is reading this post in isolation, please don't treat this as anything other than supposition)

Once again, thanks for everyone's help,

Martin.
 
@martin. where are you based as there may be somebody that is prepared to demo such kit to you.

Although it is often stated I have never seen any proof that the Lencarta gear is modified from standard. In my honest opinion the current Godox items work great out of the box but i do not have much experience with older versions.

Mike
 
Just as a quick update - I spoke with Garry this morning, and he was incredibly helpful, giving me some additional pointers, and also listing some potential gotchas which were very handy. I'll likely take a final call on product choice over the weekend, but the feedback here from everyone has really helped for which I'm genuinely grateful.
thanks again,
Martin.
 
As for the strobe itself, I'm edging towards the godox brand as I seem to be buying just at the time they have launched a suite of products in a new system (ie their new range has integrated controllers, and their newer strobes seem to have good flash duration/colour consistency characteristics, as well as TTL, HSS, etc).
That said, I certainly get the impression that Lencarta offer superior products as they seem to customise the generic brands to match the needs of working photographers (and correct me if I'm wrong on this one as I may be talking nonsense here), but at this particular moment in time, I'd likely be buying out of cycle (ie I get the impression they are likely going to launch new products in the coming months, and I'd kick myself if I bought something in the off-cycle). Thankfully, it looks like godox and lencarta are largely compatible, so I'm hopefully not going to ostracise myself from the brand in the longer term if I did buy godox now, and can still invest in lencarta gear over the longer term, as again, I'd rather buy from a local firm where possible. And in the meantime, I can still make use of their modifiers which look ideal.
(Caution - i might be talking total utter nonsense in that last paragraph, so if any newbie like myself is reading this post in isolation, please don't treat this as anything other than supposition)
Click to expand...

Martin, I don't know if this is helpful, but re your last paragraph, the flash market is a minefield. With a few notable exceptions, mostly expensive, you've often got little idea of what you're actually buying. Specifications are often, frankly, made up and prone to change without notice - in the confident knowledge that consumers are unlikely to challenge them. On the other hand, the details of performance probably don't matter much to most users and portraiture is not very demanding of things like flash durations or critical colour. So maybe it doesn't matter - they flash, the power is there or thereabouts, colour is good, the modelling lamp shines...

The majority of units on sale are all made in China, under a vast range of over-brands. Two big manufacturers are Godox and Jinbei, also available under dozens of other brand names. They use generic cases and control panels so different brands often look similar or identical, but these manufacturers will put whatever collection of parts inside that the customer wants. They may be the same, they may not be, they could change at any time.

The brands that actually make their own kit, or have it made exclusively for them, include Bowens, Broncolor, Elinchrom and Profoto - off the top of my head. Maybe some US brands too, but they're nothing special and never been popular here, though some have tried importing them.

Conventional studio flash technology (voltage regulated) is pretty basic technology and hasn't really changed over decades. Features have been added, mostly for convenience. The new kid on the block is IGBT regulated power - like all speedlites. What's new is big power with IGBT control, up to 600Ws (a decent speedlite is around 100Ws equivalent). IGBT gives you auto-TTL exposure control, very short flash durations, and high-speed sync possibilities. These are big advantages for some situations, mainly outdoors action, but there's no free lunch - they're expensive, there's a big loss of effective power in HSS mode, you don't need or want auto-exposure in the studio, or high-speed sync, and voltage-regulated flash durations can be fast fast enough for things like kids jumping around in the studio (though check this if that's important to you and beware the stated specs that are nowhere near where you think they are*). IGTB is probably the future but that's far from certain. The technology is evolving relatively quickly, as is battery power, but I wouldn't worry about it - you can add and integrate it with voltage regulated kit as and when you need it.

*Flash durations is a whole other can of worms but a quick answer for voltage regulated flash is to multiply the stated t.5 duration by three to get a shutter speed equivalent, eg t.5 of 1/1000th will be more like a 1/350sec shutter speed in terms of visual action-stopping. And that will be at full power - with voltage regulated flash, durations get longer as power is reduced (the opposite of IGBT).
 
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As above.
Both studio flash and hotshoe flash is currently undergoing a massive sea change, with old established manufacturers very much on the back foot and unable to compete on either price or specs with the new boys, simply because they value their customers and want to look after them in the future, which is expensive.
As an example, look at hotshoe flashguns - why buy an expensive Canon or Nikon flashgun when you can get a cheap Chinese one for a fraction of the price? Who cares if the manufacturer doesn't even understand, let alone adopt, the principles of customer support, dealer network, repair infrastructure etc? If it only costs a fraction of the price of a product that appears to be similar, just take your chance and with luck it may last a while before you need to throw it away.

As a business model, manufacturers who will sell to literally any re-seller grow very rapidly, and if they don't make the mistake of over-trading, they can be hugely successful, at least for a while, and then they saturate and kill their own market. This has happened with hotshoe flashguns, with the market leaders (in terms of quantity) now in trouble because they have run out of customers. When demand was growing at a rapid pace they sub-contracted out manufacturing to a host of small factories, these factories have had to make a big investment in terms of both machinery and labour and suddenly they've lost their income, with the result that they are now selling direct themselves, hence the plethora of new brand names on products that look identical but with unknown performance/quality.

Once these manufacturers have destroyed their own market, what will they do? As a businessman, my guess is that they will evolve into other hi tech products and repeat the process, becoming very wealthy as they do so and leaving the customers who created that wealth up the creek without a paddle. We've already seen this, to some extent, with one manufacture moving into making autofocus lenses using technology that, previously, only Canon and Nikon had, and their lenses seem to be exact copies - OK, so far nobody seems to be buying them, but that's the way it's going.

To understand why this works in the way it does, we need to understand the Chinese business model and the Chinese attitude towards business. There are 1.3 billion potential customers within China, and if a manufacturer fails to provide any kind of customer service and upsets a few thousand customers, there are plenty of other potential customers left - that doesn't work here. The Chinese regard any product that is sold for just a penny or two profit, and which doesn't attract any customer support, as a Juǎnxīncài, which translates to cabbage. A cabbage won't be fit for purpose for long, and the customers isn't going to come back and complain when it needs to be thrown away - just pile them high and sell them cheap, and if they're past their sell by date just spray them with water to make them look better. For some Chinese manufacturers, lighting equipment is now regarded as a cabbage. This would be fine if the cost was similar to that of a cabbage, but it stops working when the products cost £000's. The manufacturers aren't stupid, they know that their policy of taking the money and failing to give customer support will make their brand toxic over time, and that their business cannot survive indefinately in its present form but as I said, they have no intention of being around for long, just long enough to grow rich.

I may be unique on this forum in that I've met, spent time with and discussed equipment with every one of the major manufacturers, plus a lot of the smaller ones. I have very strong views on which of these are ethical, which are in business for the long haul and which ones are committed to the industry. Some are, some aren't. And we're almost all guilty, because most of us only look at our own short term interests. For example, I've just bought what is basically a laser pointer via Ebay, standard thing except that it fits into a shotgun to show the exact mount position required. At the price I paid for it it is obvious that it has effectively been smuggled into the country, evading VAT and import duty, and it came complete with its lithium batteries, which could potentially set fire to the plane that they travelled on...
 
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HI Martin, Welcome tot he forum.

I would recommend Lencarta, I have a 2 head set, it serves me well and never lets me down. Helped me learn the principals of studio lighting without worrying about the gear and spending a lot of money. I have no affiliation, just a recommendation on experience.

Chris.
 
I have a rather different view of modelling lights - yes back to the original topic, in that most are over bright and generate too much heat, then again I shoot in a rather small darkened room usually, so high powered modelling lights are unnecessary. The other factor I've found over the years of using many brands is that they provide a different end result to that which is achieved with the flash itself as they don't have the same position within the reflector as the flash tube. This is very reflector dependent and experience lets you know what to expect or how to translate the 'view' given by the modelling lights. The sequence I go through is to set-up the lighting with the modelling light on full, then take them down to their proportional setting to check the overall balance, then usually switch them off except for perhaps the background light during actual shooting - well I am in a darkened room so do need to have something on to see what I'm doing and have some light to aid the auto focus....the other consideration is that bright modelling lights will cause the subjects pupils to contract, whereas in a darkened room the pupils are enlarged and far more attractive.

Paul
 
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