Self defense with camera gear

So mugging with the threat of violence is ok if you've got a reason for doing it? What happens if the victim refuses and this mythical mugger carries through the threat of violence? I think tif they're going to threaten violence to people, at some point they will come up against someone who will fight back.

I'm not saying don't fight back. I'm commenting on the claimed lack of remorse.

It is not OK if someone dies. If they were trying to mug someone, that still does not make it OK.

The consequences of breaking the law do not include death. At least not in any remotely civilised country.
 
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One of the chaps who shoots footie sometimes told me he was walking home after a match when 2 chaps approached him (a bit the worse for wear, he thought) and started asking him where he'd been, his camera equipment etc. Now he's a big bloke, at least 6'6" and strong. So he strung along with them, friendly like. Then one said something like "i bet the 2 of us could easily take your camera off you", at which point he revealed the monopod with the big knobbly adapter on the end which he'd been carrying under his arm. He said something along the lines of 'does this even the odds', at which point these blokes changed their minds and ran off.

Moral: a monopod has multiple uses.
 
I would use reasonable force to prevent anyone taking my equipment, how reasonable I would be would depend solely on the other person. I would be 100% prepared to stuff a gripped camera into someones face to prevent them taking gear or trying to harm me and would have zero sympathy for the mugger. I would also happily accept the consequences. If I was with family then my tolerance levels would drop dramatically and I would be more likely to use more force.
 
"and how much force did you use sir?" Answer "I hit him as hard as I could to make him stop". Ends the debate about 'reasonable' force.
 
The consequences of breaking the law do not include death. At least not in any remotely civilised country.

Actually, yes they do - if you decide to commit a violent crime then you need to be ready to meet with violence in return, and if the violence returned is greater then that should be no suprise.

During any violent act there is the consequence of possible death, wether deliberate or being knocked to the floor, banging your head against a kerb, and dying as a result of that.

When you say do not - you are wrong - maybe if you put "should not" then i might have agreed with you. However, live by the sword, die by the sword. Its a saying with a lot of truth.
 
"and how much force did you use sir?" Answer "I hit him as hard as I could to make him stop". Ends the debate about 'reasonable' force.

It depends on the situation though, if you genuinely believed your life was under threat hitting them as hard as you possibly could would be deemed reasonable.
 
I'm not saying don't fight back. I'm commenting on the claimed lack of remorse.

It is not OK if someone dies. If they were trying to mug someone, that still does not make it OK.

The consequences of breaking the law do not include death. At least not in any remotely civilised country.

I'm trying to work out if you're for real or just trolling here :thinking:

If you follow your logic through, some drug-crazed scumbag decided to mug you and they don't care if you live or die as a result, you should hold back in case you cause them any harm and/or accidentally kill them?

Fair enough if a "victim" lashes out to deliberately mame/kill an attacker then that's wrong but if I found myself in a dire situation and had no other option but to use the maximum force I could muster to protect myself then I'm afraid this person only has themselves to blame whatever the consequencies! Personally I probably would feel bad for a while but ultimately I'm going to do what I can to preserve my own life and make sure I'm around for my Fiancee and family.

To me this is no different to criminals who rob people's houses then complain that they cut themselves smashign through a window and try to sue or try and press charges when the owner defends themself/family/property.

If they weren't trying to do something wrong then they wouldn't have got hurt.... SIMPLES (y)
 
if I found myself in a dire situation and had no other option but to use the maximum force I could muster to protect myself then I'm afraid this person only has themselves to blame whatever the consequencies! Personally I probably would feel bad for a while but ultimately I'm going to do what I can to preserve my own life

I think most would feel the same way ... but there is a difference between "to protect myself" and "to protect my camera", both in moral and in legal terms, not to mention the potential danger you expose yourself to in the actual confrontation.

"What steps did you take to protect your camera?" ... "I killed him!"
"What steps did you take to protect your camera?" ... "Great big ones!"
 
It depends on the situation though, if you genuinely believed your life was under threat hitting them as hard as you possibly could would be deemed reasonable.

"honestly held belief" is the phrase.
 
I think most would feel the same way ... but there is a difference between "to protect myself" and "to protect my camera", both in moral and in legal terms, not to mention the potential danger you expose yourself to in the actual confrontation.

"What steps did you take to protect your camera?" ... "I killed him!"
"What steps did you take to protect your camera?" ... "Great big ones!"

Totally agree Gramps, I'm not a fighter......

When I was 11 years old this kid kept having a go at me and one day I fronted him..... little did I know he was a junior boxer and I got weaved into the playground :LOL:

I was always the smallest in my class until I hit about 14 years old so even now at nearly 6ft tall and 15+ stone (OK, not massive but not small either) I still think like a little kid and size people up on the basis of whether I can run faster than them or make them laugh to avoid getting hurt :LOL:

I've been involved in situations in night clubs where I've been confronted by people obviously looking for trouble. Once this guy dropped his shoulder into me and waited for a reaction but I ignored him and walked off, he did the same to another guy who reacted and ended up with a pint glass wrapped around the side of his head for his troubles :eek:

I also know that I'd be the unlucky sod who'd put a decent punch on someone's chin, only for them to fall over, smash their head on something and die! (OK, it's a different situation to being mugged robbed but hopefully you get my point)

Like others have said, no one really knows how they're going to react in an extreme situation like that and all theories go out of the window when adrhenaline's in the mix.
 
I would not hesitate in hurting/maiming someone who is trying to mug me, whether i'm holding my camera gear or a coffee cup.

Scum like that should be wiped from the streets.

I can't believe some people here are saying 'don't go where you think it's not safe'...I feel sorry for you that you let others dictate when and where you can photograph.

When I was younger, I went to playstation skatepark in Ladbroke Grove, London regularly. Once aged around 14, me and a friend were nearing the park and a big group of 'multi-cultured' kids were coming toward us. We knew what was about to happen. Four of them spread across the pavement so we couldn't pass. We stopped, they asked my friend for a look in his bag, I took one step to the side and smashed the guy to my right around the head with my helmet. He went down, pretty sure he cried a bit, and my mate head-butted the one who asked for a look in his bag. The other two hesitated, and we skated the 50yards to the skatepark entrance. This was all with skates on :bonk: Love it when people misjudge you.
 
There are a lot of brave people under the ground - not sure if proving a point is worth it!
 
Its easy to just say 'hand it over' but believe me some of these criminals are sophisticated in that they'll easily copy over all the data on your card (even the deleted), no matter if eventually caught by the cops. Can you be safe in the knowledge your personal details/portraits of family/copyright images/etc haven't already been passed on..that's not a risk i'm personally willing to take.
 
A mate of mine bodyguards for the BBC cameramen (e.g. at Dale Farm) and has seen up close what some people are capable of.

Personally, unless it was a job, I'd stay away from potential trouble just to get a photo. If I want to go out at night (or in daytime) somewhere I might feel vulnerable I'd either get my OH to watch my back or else arrange a group shoot (safety in numbers).

Going to unfamiliar territory and looking like you don't belong is marking you out as a potential victim.

Having said that, I have never felt under threat anywhere I've been (so far)
 
I think you're twisting that somewhat. Murder is the unlawful killing of another being with "malice aforethought"

The whole think here is talking about defending you and your property from a spur of the moment attack, not planning it and executing it.

Good job you left the country - maybe the average intellectual level has gone up
 
barneyrubble said:
I think you're twisting that somewhat. Murder is the unlawful killing of another being with "malice aforethought"

The whole think here is talking about defending you and your property from a spur of the moment attack, not planning it and executing it.

Good job you left the country - maybe the average intellectual level has gone up



Funny. I like the complete lack of comprehension followed by a lame dig at my above average IQ. I'd respond, but I have better things to do. I'm out. My money's on nobody who's commented here following through, so I think we'll be OK.
 
You've got better things to do?

So why did you respond?

You have made pretty much no sense throughout this whole thread so I'm guessing you cant come up with a convincing argument - you certainly havent yet
 
Murderous people make you want to stay?

lol no, I think protecting your property with reasonable force and not being sympathetic towards your attacker at the outcome is perfectly normal. I think worrying that you might hurt the poor little mugger is hilarious and taking political correctness to the extreme.
Why would you have any sympathy towards the mugger in this hypothetical situation? :shrug:
 
It's a pretty sad state of affairs when muggings and crap like that happen, but I guess it's a sorry fact of life in a lot of areas these days... especially in the UK, from what I can gather, unfortunately. I for one think that this country has kinda gone to the dogs, and I know there are plenty of others that feel the same way. But that's been covered in other threads on here before...

But at the end of the day, and despite how much posturing about how hard anybody would or wouldn't fight back, no single piece of camera equipment is ever going to be worth as much as life or limb. Especially when you can nip down the road or get online and get a direct replacement on insurance...
 
A drunken youth at Le Mans demanded I give him my gear, it was 3am and dark around the back of the grandstands. I told him to f*** off and that I would pull his head off if he tried it. He walked off muttering. Giving him my kit would probably have been the safest option, he might have had a knife hidden or whatever but until you are in the situation you don't know how you'll react.
 
A drunken youth at Le Mans demanded I give him my gear, it was 3am and dark around the back of the grandstands. I told him to f*** off and that I would pull his head off if he tried it. He walked off muttering. Giving him my kit would probably have been the safest option, he might have had a knife hidden or whatever but until you are in the situation you don't know how you'll react.

I guess the key is in summing up the perp in the first few seconds. Drunk. Probably that prompted you to take the initiative. Had he been stone cold calculating and sharp you may well have made a different choice.
 
I guess the key is in summing up the perp in the first few seconds. Drunk. Probably that prompted you to take the initiative. Had he been stone cold calculating and sharp you may well have made a different choice.

Indeed, plus the number, size and demeanour of a potential attacker.

Some French one-can-dan who can't hold his p1ss weak French lager gets sent on his way. The French Foreign Legion on the other hand would have been going home the proud owners of some new Canon gear.
 
the other thing i'd mention is if you do happen to wrap a wellplaced mamiya 645 arround some scrotes head in a darkened lane - theres no need to call the police, just walk away - removes the whole issue of 'what will the police say', and 'will he find out who I am'
 
Lot of responses in this thread demonstrate the reasoning behind why I left the UK. Selfish ignorance gets everybody nowhere. Probably beyond the scope of this thread but that's the way it's going.

I'm actually quite relieved that you're no longer with us. Going by your posts in this thread, we have enough of your like in this country. Too worried about the disadvantaged criminal, than the ordinary, decent citizen.
 
Wow this thread is full if interesting comments, actions, reactions, law quoting, legal phrase suggesting...

As someone who is qualified, experienced and well versed in the areas that are being discussed, I'll put my 5ps worth in...

There is no right or wrong when it comes to your personal reaction to being mugged... You can pretty much get away with anything as long as it's not planned or prepared for. You should assess the risk of anything you do with anything valuable and on show, it's not doing this that will usually get people unstuck. If your unlucky enough to get in trouble after that, the ****** happens unfortunately, let it go or face the consequences of being brave!

I was on duty, in uniform (let's just keep it at that) on the front line of the recent riots having "photo journalists" knock on my car window asking if they could go take pics of shops being looted and superstores getting torched. Why ask if they're going to anyway?!? I was anxious to even get out of my car through threats against me and people were walking straight into all of that with £5k's worth of camera (what insurance company would pay that out??)

I'm sure atleast a few of those were toggers on here looking to sell to the media, and I'm sure the larger egos here were either there or would have liked too!

Risk assess, before & during whatever your doing... Try not to be the invitation opportunistic criminals!
 
No one can say what they will do if confronted by some low-life looking to get into photography. There are just too many variables at play.

It's all very well saying you shouldn't venture into potentially dangerous areas but the key is how you present and handle yourself in that environment. I've been involved in some damm silly situations in the distant past. Including taking mug-shots in the middle of marches and riots - some in areas where the police wouldn't venture on a calm day. If you are confronted, the first priority will be to extract yourself from the situation - ideally with kit - using whatever tactics are appropriate.

Having said that, I'm always on the look out to crush a scrote. A size ten to the wedding tackle has been my opening gambit in the past.
 
Wow.. This thread has grown a lot...

One of the things I hate about the UK is the lack of self defense tools, I mean what do we have... Nothing really... What do "they" have, guns, knives etc...

We should AT the VERY least be able to carry pepper spray or tasers, this is nuts..

I've got no problem defending my self, but wouldn't ever whack someone with my camera lol...

Cheers
 
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Lot of responses in this thread demonstrate the reasoning behind why I left the UK. Selfish ignorance gets everybody nowhere. Probably beyond the scope of this thread but that's the way it's going.

I do think your being a bit hard on people,who just want to defend their right,to fight back.

As for Aus,I dare you to go out and try to take a camera,from any of my oz mates I know :D
 
As for Aus,I dare you to go out and try to take a camera,from any of my oz mates I know :D

lol - i do see a certain irony in someone who thinks the uk is too macho moving to australia
 
Yes, pepper spay or a tazer? So you want any idiot wandering about with those do you? If you can have them legally, so can Mr Mugger, which makes it twice as bad as it is now. Great plan!

Whats obvious, is that few of you have ever met a mugger, so lets dispel a few myths.

1. Muggers are not brave. If you are 6'11, and built like a Russian shot putter, then the average 15 year old mugger who thinks he's jack the lad and the best thing to the female sex since the Karma Sutra, is not going to make himself look like a bigger berk by risking having his face re arranged.

2. Who said, "A Mugger looking to get into photography"? A mugger wants your goodies to either spend, so your cash and or credit card is most important, or sell to spend. Your camera, to use is of little interest. Besides, if he's caught with it, once he's gone through the standard, "You can't do this cause the guidelines say so" (oh, all of a sudden, if your cameras nicked you do want people stopped and asked about their kit?), a quick property index check, he's nicked. While thats no exactly a deterrent, it does limit earning potential, ie can't mug others while in the bin!

3. Equally silly idea that a mugger is going to go through your memory card looking for clues as to who you are. Further compounded by the use of the word 'intelligent' in the same sentence. Meanwhile, back on Earth, please read point 1 and 2.

4. Muggings are not an everyday occurrence in every street. Stay in busy public areas and your fine. But, go to Stockwell, and set your kit up, and frankly, you're asking for trouble. There's plenty of information on areas that really are not a good idea to go to, and of course, there's this little known thing called, common sense.

5. If your 3 foot tall, and fall over in a slight breeze, take someone with you. Muggers are, as I said, cowards, they only play when they will win, or wont get hurt trying.

6. Lastly, if you are going to crown someone who does try and mug you, don't come on here bragging about what you're planning. Also, think it through before you're in a position where you might have too. Why? For a start, because hit someone in that situation, and it goes wrong, you miss, or they just don't feel it (trust me they often don't) then all you will have done is make them very angry, which will hurt you, a lot. Secondly, if you do cause them serious harm, then with the CPS these days being more interested in prosecuting Police Officers or ordinary MOP's, than those that need it, will want to see a lot of evidence that you really did use the minimum force that was reasonable to prevent loss of your property or to protect your life. If you haven't got that, and you say the wrong things, don't be surprised to end up gripping the bar at your local Magistrates/Crown Court.
 
Lot of responses in this thread demonstrate the reasoning behind why I left the UK. Selfish ignorance gets everybody nowhere. Probably beyond the scope of this thread but that's the way it's going.

It is reassuring to see that the majority of people think we have the right to defend ourselves under such circumstances, and the resulting consequences should not be a concern of the victim. I would certainly not refer to defending ourselves as ‘selfish ignorance’.
In many other countries around the world you are allowed to defend your family and property by whatever means.
We already have enough do-gooders looking after the criminals in this country
:shake:
 
Yes, pepper spay or a tazer? So you want any idiot wandering about with those do you? If you can have them legally, so can Mr Mugger, which makes it twice as bad as it is now. Great plan!
.

except that mr mugger probably already has them ... or more likely other lethal items like a double stan... about his person anyway. The lawbreaking idiots are already armed, its only the law abiding who arent allowed to be

And I think whoever said " a youth looking to get into photography" was being ironic

And lastly as i said before theres a simple expedient to not getting into police hassle ... if you do happen to bash a mugger,dont call the law, and dont hang arround waiting for witnesses to see you, just walk away briskly (dont run - a running man attracts attention)
 
steel toe cap boots and a well placed kick in the nuts.
 
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