Short Eared Owls at ?????

[jasonhb]

Hi All,

I might be flamed for this post but I thought it worthwhile for many reasons.

I have noticed that several TP members have been revealing the location of their shots of SEO's in not just the thread itself, but within the thread title. I can't help thinking that this is not the best idea!

These are amber status birds and the proliferation of toggers at this site in particular is not doing the birds any favours. I am not accusing anyone from this forum of any impropriety but there have been numerous examples of appalling behaviour by some so-called photographers desperate to get their shots.

This includes walking into the field to put in "perches" or even walking right into the middle to take photos. At best all this will do is upset all of the legitimate and intelligent photographers and at worst, will disturb these beautiful birds.

We are so so lucky to have the chance to take photos of these incredible creatures but please, please, PLEASE can we put a little more thought into our actions and attempt to be a little more discreet about the birds locations.

As I say, I am not sure this will be the most popular post, but I thought it about time I said something.

Jason

 

[sturs]

Hi All,

I might be flamed for this post but I thought it worthwhile for many reasons.

I have noticed that several TP members have been revealing the location of their shots of SEO's in not just the thread itself, but within the thread title. I can't help thinking that this is not the best idea!

These are amber status birds and the proliferation of toggers at this site in particular is not doing the birds any favours. I am not accusing anyone from this forum of any impropriety but there have been numerous examples of appalling behaviour by some so-called photographers desperate to get their shots.

This includes walking into the field to put in "perches" or even walking right into the middle to take photos. At best all this will do is upset all of the legitimate and intelligent photographers and at worst, will disturb these beautiful birds.

We are so so lucky to have the chance to take photos of these incredible creatures but please, please, PLEASE can we put a little more thought into our actions and attempt to be a little more discreet about the birds locations.

As I say, I am not sure this will be the most popular post, but I thought it about time I said something.

Jason

100% agree with everything you have said

 

[lost]

I tend to agree with you but this site like Worlaby has become so well known that the secret has got out. I have had different friends up and down the country pm'ing me about it wanting to know if i already knew about it even 1 friend in france they have all google earthed it. It is also listed on 3 birding websites to my knowledge.
This is the downside with technology it get's out all i would say is if people are going that they give the birds the respect they should have and everyone sticks to the footpaths.

:rules: Just remember the subject comes before the photograph treat it with respect.

Regards

Richard

 

[*gold*]

I tend to agree with you but this site like Worlaby has become so well known that the secret has got out. I have had different friends up and down the country pm'ing me about it wanting to know if i already knew about it even 1 friend in france they have all google earthed it. It is also listed on 3 birding websites to my knowledge.
This is the downside with technology it get's out all i would say is if people are going that they give the birds the respect they should have and everyone sticks to the footpaths.

:rules: Just remember the subject comes before the photograph treat it with respect.

Regards

Richard

I didn't know Richard
I do admit however, as you say, it wouldn't take much to find out though, with todays technology once its out in the open its everywhere.

Hi All,

I might be flamed for this post but I thought it worthwhile for many reasons.

I have noticed that several TP members have been revealing the location of their shots of SEO's in not just the thread itself, but within the thread title. I can't help thinking that this is not the best idea!

These are amber status birds and the proliferation of toggers at this site in particular is not doing the birds any favours. I am not accusing anyone from this forum of any impropriety but there have been numerous examples of appalling behaviour by some so-called photographers desperate to get their shots.

This includes walking into the field to put in "perches" or even walking right into the middle to take photos. At best all this will do is upset all of the legitimate and intelligent photographers and at worst, will disturb these beautiful birds.

We are so so lucky to have the chance to take photos of these incredible creatures but please, please, PLEASE can we put a little more thought into our actions and attempt to be a little more discreet about the birds locations.

As I say, I am not sure this will be the most popular post, but I thought it about time I said something.

Jason

agreed

Best wishes
Cliff

 

[andyjholt]

It's an interesting topic this. I now hear more and more that Birders are supressing rare bird sightings to try and avoid irresponsible twitchers descending on their local patch.

Even more than birding, photographers tend to be more demanding of close up views, and this combined with wildlife photography having seen a massive increase in popularity makes problems pretty much inevitable.

The way I see it going is that photographers will increasingly close ranks, forming small groups, where trust can be established.

As Richard said, I think the key thing that all of us photographing wildlife should adhere to is the idea that the welfare of the subject is more important than any photograph will ever be.

 

[u8myufo]

A worthwhile thread imo jason

 

[Cheffievrs]

Totally agree jase

 

[PaulMW]

A very good point raised.

IMO it would be nice if the mods could remove the location from the thread title in question before it gets archived by Google....

 

[jasonhb]

A very good point raised.

IMO it would be nice if the mods could remove the location from the thread title in question before it gets archived by Google....

Good idea but it's not the only one. There is at least one other, possibly 2

Jason

 

[Teagan]

As a birder first and and photographer second I totally agree. Its the welfare of the birds and animals that should be put first and not the picture.

The best pics imo are the unstaged truly wild ones were the subject doesnt know the photograher is there.

Gerard.

 

[Neil B]

I think that part of the problem is the photographers are being lazy and going to the "honey pot" locations for some easy shots, this is why 40-50 are turning up and doing anything for "the shot".
The last location i used was a 25min walk each way up on the North York moors and didn't see anyone all day

 

[hollis_f]

I have several SEOs very close by. I have no problem giving the location for several reasons. The main reason is that it's a location that is very popular with people walking their dogs, who are almost completely ignored by the Owls. The Owls chose this location and have decided to stay here for several months.

As long as people or dogs don't walk towards the Owls they're quite happy and will often fly very close to people. I've had them around 5m away while I've been standing in my garden.

 

[munch]

Generally I don't really see the need for adding the locations. Doesn't do anything to to the photo really.

As for the argument that everyone knows that is tosh.

The other year I did some work at a well known cricketers new house, whilst I am sure a lot of people know where he lives I have no intention of putting it on this or any any other website. Because everybody doesn't actually know, nor do they need to.

 

[Teagan]

Delete this post please.:bang:

 

[mark richards]

I agree on whats been said...I've not even been to see the birds local to me ...at one point apparently, up to eleven birds in one place...theres been a constant flow of people to take photos of these birds, some sticking to the code of practise, some just flushing the birds to get flight shots...:thumbsdown:
how many times does it take to get the shots you need...some keep going back
time after time?
well rant over not getting into a slanging match over this....

 

[graphilly]

Within 10 miles from me I have 3 sites with SEO, quite prolific at at this time of year. I've always found the owls to be quite tolerant of humans here.

All of the sites have lots of tracks through them and are frequented by dog-walkers, walkers, mountain bikers and photographers alike, but there is one of the sites where you just wouldn't expect them to be quite so tolerant.

On the biggest site, with currently around 7-8 owls on it, it gets lots of quad biker and motocross bikers at weekends and occasionally through the week also. Doesn't seem to bother them too much. They've been at this site for the past 5 years now so I guess they get used to it

 

[kaz10]

Jason so glad you have put up this thread, I totally agre with you. It is wrong to put up locations in my opinion, another froum has banned this which is a good thing, by all means tell your fellow toggers who you know will cause no disturbance to the birds and who can be sensible and do it through a pm. If its the sight you are talking about it is true there has been folk who keep going in the field wandering about, then trying to put perches up etc, its not fair to the shorties that are roosting, at the end of the day its causing disturbance to the wildlife and a true wildlife photographer just wouldn t do it.

 

[hollis_f]

If its the sight you are talking about it is true there has been folk who keep going in the field wandering about, then trying to put perches up etc, its not fair to the shorties that are roosting, at the end of the day its causing disturbance to the wildlife and a true wildlife photographer just wouldn t do it.

Would it be OK if I were to follow one of the dog walkers around? Then I wouldn't be causing any additional disturbance.

Is it OK for me to carry on gardening when the owls appear, or should I rush indoors and hide until they've finished hunting?

 

[jasonhb]

Would it be OK if I were to follow one of the dog walkers around? Then I wouldn't be causing any additional disturbance.

Is it OK for me to carry on gardening when the owls appear, or should I rush indoors and hide until they've finished hunting?

Frank, I think you might be taking this too literally. If you happen to have some SEO's at the end of your garden, then no one is expecting you to change your lifestyle to that extreme.

The issue is people going out of their way to wilfully disturb the birds for the sake of a photograph. As I said, at best this behaviour will annoy more "sensible" and intelligent toggers and at worst could disturb roosts and who knows what else.

It isn't just birds as Richard has alluded to, but we need to think about our actions if we are to appear responsible to both others and ourselves. It is a privilege not a right to be able to photograph these beautiful birds.

Jason

 

[lost]

Generally I don't really see the need for adding the locations. Doesn't do anything to to the photo really.

As for the argument that everyone knows that is tosh.

The other year I did some work at a well known cricketers new house, whilst I am sure a lot of people know where he lives I have no intention of putting it on this or any any other website. Because everybody doesn't actually know, nor do they need to.

I Just typed in short Eared Owls Northamptonshire into google search it came up as fourth item down it's so simple to find with a few key words. For anyone who's looking.
As i pointed out in my earlier post i had an e-mail from a friend in france telling me they were there i already knew . If people are willing to look they will find it i know of half a dozen other sites that are not listed and nor will they be by me. My point was over the 2 sites i have mentioned they are well known within the birding community and word has been passed around, like Donna Nook was for grey Seals,
I live 84 miles from the site and i heard pretty quickly when they started arriving back. I agree with Jason over not posting the name of the place in the title. But people who have internet access have the world at there finger tips if they know what to enter especially if you search blogs and websites. Tomorrow im of for a Drive of 50 miles because i have just heard of another vistor to our shores.
Regards
Richard

 

[Cheffievrs]

Jason and I have spoke about this issue at great lengths and we fell that this needs to be taken seriously.....! Now we are all avid photographers and we all have a network go friends, contacts that we can talk to when we need to talk about locations... But do we really NEED to post the locations on the forums...! NO is the answer.
Richard has googled the site and it's number 4 on the searched sites, so it's not that difficult to do the research...? And if you need any more reason to to avoid this issue, then here's a little video to show what not to do...! Ok yes its funny, but the bloke should not be in the field what so ever...!

http://vimeo.com/35523405

Jason

 

[hollis_f]

The issue is people going out of their way to wilfully disturb the birds for the sake of a photograph. As I said, at best this behaviour will annoy more "sensible" and intelligent toggers and at worst could disturb roosts and who knows what else.

But it's not that black and white. Photographers are being damned for 'walking into the middle of a field'. Behaviour which may, in some circumstances, actually disturb the birds but for these birds is something they experience numerous times a day, every day.

Now the more 'sensible' toggers aren't likely to be that worried about somebody walking into one of the fields frequented by these owls for two reasons - 1. It happens so often with the dog walkers that you'd soon worry yourself into the grave; 2. There's a 50/50 chance that the bozo in the middle of the field will make the owl move closer to the guy standing half-hidden in the hedge.

So, all I'm saying is there's no need for total supression of anything rarer than a starling.

Oh, and if anybody wants a good chance of taking photos of this beautiful species, just check out my name, my location and their name on Google.

 

[kaz10]

Would it be OK if I were to follow one of the dog walkers around? Then I wouldn't be causing any additional disturbance.

Is it OK for me to carry on gardening when the owls appear, or should I rush indoors and hide until they've finished hunting?

There is no need to start on me, this is a different kind of disturbance we are talking about, there are dog walkers, etc pass this sight every day, sensible toggers photographing them this is fine, its those who cause disturbance by going in the field, and I think you are being a bit childish with your gardening comment.

 

[kaz10]

The trouble is if one togger goes into the field messing about others will follow and then there will be to much disturbance thats what I am saying, I saw a dog running through and the owls stayed down didn t bother them probably used to it, but to many people in there will bother them.

 

[graphilly]

I'd be interested in hearing definitions for 'sensible' and 'intelligent'.

I'm not familiar with the Maidwell site but are there clear boundaries? Who establishes what the boundaries are?

I think I understand the need of the OP to post this thread but it is also drawing attention to them at the same time.

Stopping posting location details on this board will only go a very small way to eradicating what some people see as a problem.

 

[jasonhb]

I'd be interested in hearing definitions for 'sensible' and 'intelligent'.

I'm not familiar with the Maidwell site but are there clear boundaries? Who establishes what the boundaries are?

I think I understand the need of the OP to post this thread but it is also drawing attention to them at the same time.

Stopping posting location details on this board will only go a very small way to eradicating the problem.

There are very clear boundaries and the only people that should be in that field are the landowners.

Sensible and intelligent is used to define toggers who observe limits and boundaries and have an understanding of the welfare of the subject matter. This is THE most important part, certainly more important than getting a picture.

I am not sure why people are being so defensive over this as surely we are all lovers of feathered and furry things and should be aware of how our actions may affect them. Or am I wrong and do some people not give a damn?

As for only going a small way to eradicate the problem, well that's just a ridiculous think to say. I am sorry but if we all took that attitude then this country would be in an even bigger mess than it is now. We have to start somewhere and if we can all do our part then this will make it better for everyone.

It might be an extreme leap but it's the same attitude as seeing someone steal something or breaking the law in some way and not doing anything about it because it will only make a very small difference.

Jason

 

[maninsuitcase]

I found my local SEOs via a link on a local birding group, I think you need to sign up to view it but that's no hurdle. I also have seen others link to it, finding it is not hard and people have travelled a long way to go there.

The site is a Wildlife trust site and frequented by lots of walkers and dogs and the birds paid none any bother even when the dog walkers got quite close indeed.

As for trapsing across the fields, yes I have done this, once. I won't do it again as I got a load of dirty looks that indicated this is bad form. I am having to learn as I go, to me walking across an empty field with no owls in site for a fair distance wasn't a big deal, apparently I was wrong so next time I walked round on the foot paths.

As much as I try use common sense, there keeps seeming to be some "unwritten" rule I fall foul of and get a dirty look from a birder.

 

[Neil B]

It will be Kingfisher season soon and then everyone can start complaining about getting too close to nesting sights and disturbance when they are feeding the young.

 

[mark richards]

It will be Kingfisher season soon and then everyone can start complaining about getting too close to nesting sights and disturbance when they are feeding the young.

mmm... not really ,unless you are licensed, you shouldn't be anywhere near a Schedule 1 bird, thats nesting....

 

[Neil B]

mmm... not really ,unless you are licensed, you shouldn't be anywhere near a Schedule 1 bird, thats nesting....

Sorry, i couldn't find the sarcasm smiley

 

[mrgubby]

I think it would be much better if we banned photos of any endangered Flora / Fauna from the forum

If it wasn't for people posting the photos I'd never have thought of going to those areas :bang:

 

[lost]

Here we go again :shrug:

What constitutes to close to the nest for the layman :bang:

I will outline the problem 2 wildlife trust sites i know of have had hides that have been as close as 30 feet to the nest. To me this is to close ? are they breaking the law the hides were there before the kingfishers moved their nesting site closer to them.
Then we have the footpaths saga you are not breaking the law if you pass close to the nest singing dancing and playing a trombone but if you loiter with a camera you are.
What i would clearly love to see is a set of rules people could understand adhere to and download.

Please don't take this as a flippant Reply. I know what rules i set myself and they are a lot tougher than the ones laid down, But i always feel there are so many shades of grey out there no wonder there are so many misleading Interpretations of the rules.

My Own Guidance would be

Is use common sense study the Animal / Bird if they look agitated keep low and slowly withdraw every animal has a fear circle. Please don't loiter at any nest site it's not worth it. Remember the subject comes first.

Regards

Richard

 

[hollis_f]

I will outline the problem 2 wildlife trust sites i know of have had hides that have been as close as 30 feet to the nest. To me this is to close ? are they breaking the law the hides were there before the kingfishers moved their nesting site closer to them.

Not as bad as the RSPB. At their Rye Meads site they encourage the kingfishers to breed at a certain site. And they also encourage human visitors to get within about 15m of the nest site in the 'Kingfisher Hide'. What sort of example is that to set?

 

[Janine]

I am not sure why people are being so defensive over this as surely we are all lovers of feathered and furry things and should be aware of how our actions may affect them. Or am I wrong and do some people not give a damn?

As for only going a small way to eradicate the problem, well that's just a ridiculous think to say. I am sorry but if we all took that attitude then this country would be in an even bigger mess than it is now. We have to start somewhere and if we can all do our part then this will make it better for everyone.

It might be an extreme leap but it's the same attitude as seeing someone steal something or breaking the law in some way and not doing anything about it because it will only make a very small difference.

Jason

Being a herper I feel that issues like this needs to be raised on these forums to remind people that any animals habitat can become threatened if there is enough disturbance there, unless the animals chose to make that site their home when they first settled there and are comfortable with the surrounding area. Certainly does not do snakes any good if hordes of people suddenly start tramping around their hibernacula and breeding grounds.

There will always be some exceptions, but I would much prefer to err on the side of caution than put any animals in the way of potential harm by people who would not stop to consider the potential consequences of their behaviour on the 'objects of their possible fad of the moment'.

I am not against people being told where some of these sites are, but telling the world and his wife about them and expecting them all to treat the area with courtesy is like riding for a fall... just my humble opinion of course

 

[lost]

Not as bad as the RSPB. At their Rye Meads site they encourage the kingfishers to breed at a certain site. And they also encourage human visitors to get within about 15m of the nest site in the 'Kingfisher Hide'. What sort of example is that to set?

:rules: It's hitting the nail on the head :nono:

Im always for the welfare of the subject i make no bones about it. the trouble is wildlife brings in money to these organizations they need money to pay the bills so they sometimes make bad choices. If i remember rightly the RSPB Rye Meads also advertise about the Kingfishers this brings us back round nicely to Jasons intial post. Some animals become adapted to people look at Richmond park and the Red Deer for one. I don't think there is any clear cut answer.
I think that not posting the Area in the title is a good idea. Will it stop the majority of the problems i believe not. Dog walkers have been mentioned what a few don't know is the hunt went through those fields scattering owls to the Seven winds a couple of weeks ago. But the Owls were back in force within a couple of days of this. lucky it wasn't somewhere they were breeding this is only their wintering area.
My initial thoughts are we need to stick to the footpaths and not stray onto private land and if you see someone doing wrong take their picture and plaster it over the forums. It does work i did it. Embarass the hell out of them could be the answer

Regards
Richard

P.s I know a chap who had kingfishers in his back garden nesting he couldn't get to his house from the road without passing close to the nest they raised 2 broods last year and he carried on mowing the lawn so no excuse why you can't carry on mowing your lawns

 

[SuperAP]

Kaz has brought up the most sensible point on this thread so far in relation to SEO's.

The biggest problems I've seen are not caused by getting close or putting in perches; it's when others who have no understanding of the bird's behaviour do the same without any care. Walking out in the middle of fields when the owls are up and hunting, going close to obvious roosting locations, putting hides up out of nowhere then taking them down 3 hours later... So you have to be careful and check who's watching when setting yourself up. There is the off chance you'll flush something when siting a perch or hide - but that can happen anywhere. One evening, walking back around the footpath three flew out of trees ahead of me in quick succession - nothing that can be done about it. They chose to roost next to a public footpath, and they won't keel over because they've had to fly a few feet to another roosting place!

The local nature reserve I've been shooting at is managed by the wildlife trust, who have been broadcasting the locations of them around the county on their website. You can't really blame them for wanting to get people in, but this led to increased footfall at the reserve over the Xmas break. During this time, SEO numbers halved. Of course, this may simply have been a shortage of food or other factors like predation or conflict with the others present (one of those remaining is a particular bully ). I don't think much could be done about it at popular sites and is it really a huge problem for the owls? They will move to another location if they're bothered by human activity - which I suspect is what some secretly are more concerned with than animal welfare! Lincs in particular has masses of suitable habitat for SEO's. I think some are just worried that their subjects will go elsewhere. Besides, I don't think anyone who regularly drives hundreds of miles to particular sites to see birds can honestly claim to have the best interest of the natural world at heart.

Of course there are some species that require immense care and I would 100% agree about not sharing the location, particularly now we are approaching breeding season. But not a wintering migrant who is known to have as much site loyalty as a footballer

Sorry for the essay, but I get throughly fed up with people spouting nonsense out of self-interest and using a "save the birds" theme as a cover.

 

[SuperAP]

I think that part of the problem is the photographers are being lazy and going to the "honey pot" locations for some easy shots, this is why 40-50 are turning up and doing anything for "the shot".
The last location i used was a 25min walk each way up on the North York moors and didn't see anyone all day

Another valid point, but a lot of photographers simply don't have the time, equipment or contacts to find more remote locations. I'd like the wife to go out and earn enough that she could buy me a D4, 600mm f4 and a Gitzo - and I could spend my life sitting in hides and cruisin' with my birding homies to find new and exciting places and subjects. But she doesn't, inconsiderate woman that she is :shake:

A good percentage of the bird/wildlife photographers I meet during the week are retired men or (/and? ) 40-something+ ladies with the kids grown up and a well-paid husband that spends a lot of time away with his secretary, or young and funded by the bank of mum and dad. The rest have to make do with weekends and holidays with less than ideal kit and finding subjects can be difficult - the best source of this information is usually the internet.

So yeah, a lot of people will take the easy option when it's there.

 

[SuperAP]

Here we go again :shrug:

What constitutes to close to the nest for the layman :bang:

I will outline the problem 2 wildlife trust sites i know of have had hides that have been as close as 30 feet to the nest. To me this is to close ? are they breaking the law the hides were there before the kingfishers moved their nesting site closer to them.
Then we have the footpaths saga you are not breaking the law if you pass close to the nest singing dancing and playing a trombone but if you loiter with a camera you are.
What i would clearly love to see is a set of rules people could understand adhere to and download.

Please don't take this as a flippant Reply. I know what rules i set myself and they are a lot tougher than the ones laid down, But i always feel there are so many shades of grey out there no wonder there are so many misleading Interpretations of the rules.

My Own Guidance would be

Is use common sense study the Animal / Bird if they look agitated keep low and slowly withdraw every animal has a fear circle. Please don't loiter at any nest site it's not worth it. Remember the subject comes first.

Regards

Richard

Ah, schedule 1 again!

Find me in law where it defines disturbing a schedule 1 bird. You can't, because it doesn't. Vague, subjective and unenforceable without the clearest evidence. There needs to be species-specific laws that are reviewed by an independent body - at a minimum of every five years. It is utterly ridiculous to have the Kingfisher and Hen Harrier covered by the same vague legislation :bang:

 

[lost]

Ah, schedule 1 again!

Find me in law where it defines disturbing a schedule 1 bird. You can't, because it doesn't. Vague, subjective and unenforceable without the clearest evidence. There needs to be species-specific laws that are reviewed by an independent body - at a minimum of every five years. It is utterly ridiculous to have the Kingfisher and Hen Harrier covered by the same vague legislation :bang:

Nooooooooooooooooo don't go there

You are opening a can of worms Pandoras box springs to mind
Im already getting agitated and no ones replied yet this is going to run and run. Joking aside it needs a simple to understand law with what they think permited distances should be. Even this can't be done take a peregrine nesting on a steeple people are within a 100 feet. Then swap the town for the countryside at a 100 feet you would be disturbing him/her.


Hmmmm i have a answer exterminate mankind problem solved
That would solve the Euro crisis as well Im not keen on the idea myself though.

Regards

Richard

P.s Im only joking so please anyone reading this don't take offence

 

[straycat]

not sure what to feel about your post

i didnt know they where protected?but that dosent mean to much to me in that i will allways respect all wildlife around me,protected or not.

i know,as do many where i live the location of the se owls on a RSPB site

the most photographers i have seen at one time was about 8.
we where all spread out,not one of us encroached where we shouldnt be.
i was the one who was a photographer first,bird watcher secound.

we where all respectful and would have pulled up anyone doing wrong.
in fact it was my pleasure to be surrounded my knowledgeable birdwatchers passing on whet they knew to me.no one said to me i should keep it secret and in fact the RSPB themselves post the location.


i havent got a decent picture yet as they where to far away and i wont crowd them.

here is one of the birds comes to see me when i put out peanuts.
this is next to the SEO location.