Threat of legal action over charity calendar

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andymonk

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Wondered if anyone had any advice to offer please. I'm being threatened with legal action over a "Calendar Girls" style horse riding calendar I am creating for charity.

We borrowed a horse from a stables in North Yorkshire to do a shoot for the calendar. The stables (unbeknown to me at the time) gave us one of their customers horses for an hour, after asking the owners permission to do so of course.

Almost twelve months on and the girl who owns the horse has just emailed me telling me not to use any of the photographs and to remove all photographs with her horse on from the website, Facebook, and the calendar, or she will take legal action against me! She's also been posting threatening messages on our facebook pages.

The calendar is being printed right now. All proceeds are going to Multiple Sclerosis and Leukodystrophy research.

What to do? There is no law that I know of saying you can't take photographs of animals, unless they are on the owners own private property, in which case you need the owners permission, but these were taken on land owned by the stables and anyway, she did give her permission in the first place, though it has turned out that she wasn't told of the nature of the shoot.

The photos are at *link removed*


andy
 
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I think you really need to go and get some sound legal advice. It's a shame given the work you've put into this to encounter this issue at this late stage, but in all honesty if the owner of the horse was never told the nature of the shoot then I don't see that she has actually given permission which may well cause you problems.

Good luck - I hope you get it sorted out.
 
The first thing to say is that if you are being threatened with legal action you should consult a lawyer - advice from a photography forum is all well and good but not something to bet the ranch on.

that aside my inclination would be to tell her to do one - she has no case that I can see, particularly if you can prove she gave permission. You can also get facebook to remove her messages , and if she is saying anything untrue or libelous it may in fact be you that has the case against her.

Even if she hasnt given permission i'm not aware that you need an owners permission so long as you have permission of the landowner (assuming you are on private land)
 
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I can't offer any advice, I'm afraid, but I think it's an admirable cause. A lot of people are aware of MS, but the other leukodystrophies don't get anywhere near as much mention as they ought - they're all genetic, can be every bit as debilitating, and often fatal at very young ages. I, for one, applaud your efforts.

In my opinion, and regardless of the nature of the shoot, I think it's in bad taste for her to threaten legal action over something which is being done to alleviate the suffering of others.
 
I would say too late... tell her to go for it and call her bluff.. hope she has plenty of money and wants to spend it..


HOWEVER.. As with a lot of advice on an internet forum.. its easy for us to say what we would do.... But would we really in the actual situation wiht the actual threat above our heads?... Its down to how brave you are and nobody but you can answer that one :)
 
andymonk said:
We borrowed a horse from a stables in North Yorkshire to do a shoot for the calendar. The stables (unbeknown to me at the time) gave us one of their customers horses for an hour, after asking the owners permission to do so of course.
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I'm no lawyer but it strikes me that her grouse should be with the stables, not you. After all you appear not to have had any dealings with her or even to have known that it was her horse. It was the stables that supplied the horse to you, presumably you believed it to be one of theirs.
 
As you say "unbeknown to you at the time" the horse was provided by the stables so I guess your 'contract' was with them, whether written or verbal. Not being an expert but one horse looks much the same as another horse, how could it be proven it was her actual horse and not a similar one, or did it have registration plates :D As suggested proper legal advice would be the way to go, but if it was me I would be inclined to ignore it until approached by her solicitor. How did she obtain your email address, was that through Facebook, there would seem little to be lost at this stage by waiting and making no contact.

If she claims against you, do you have a counter claim against the Stables since they supplied the horse and you potentially may suffer a loss as a result of their actions. Perhaps it might be worth having a word wtih the Stables, they may like to 'lean' on her since she uses their facilities and put pressure back on her that way. Need to be cautious though. Like I said sit and wait first.
 
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How many of the shots are her horse.....just out of interest?

You do need to see a solicitor though (not one off the telly)
 
I would wait before seeing a lawyer as it will cost you but if you wait until you are contacted by her lawyer you'd get legal aid


Check this with citizens advice
 
Mate - I would not worry at all.

I'm a police officer so while I don't deal with civil law, I do understand a bit of the basis of most things.

First of all - what is she going to 'sue' you for? For any form of case, she will need to be claiming for something - an actual loss, compensation for something mental like breach of privacy etc. You cannot sue someone just because you think they did something wrong. My understanding is you actually have to be trying to 'reclaim' something or compensation due to loss/injury of that 'thing'.

Secondly - You did not have any form of contract with her. You had a contract between you and the stables, and the stables had one between themselves and her. So, if there was any chance of her suing someone, she would need to sue the stables as it is them that have breached the contract/caused loss/injury etc. This is completely aside from the fact that you say they say she gave permission in the first place.

Thirdly, if she is sending you threatening messages, she could be committing offences under the Malicious Communications Act - although you would have to be genuinely caused some form of harassment or alarm due to their content. If you PM me the content, I'd be happy to advise further. But either way, it's a bargaining chip to get her off your back.

And lastly, from what I can find out, under these circumstances, the horse is classed in law as property. So it's exactly the same as her car. Do you think you can sue someone for taking pictures of your car?

Personally, I wouldn't waste a penny on solicitors until you get either a letter from her solicitors or a letter from court. And don't delete any messages from her.
 
Agree with the wait and see policy, for her to start using a lawyer is expensive, a solicitors letter alone would cost her well over £100 for starters plus consultancy time costs. To be honest I can't see what she is beefing about. I could go and take a photo of her horse being ridden by someone naked on a road and there is sweet FA she could do about it.

Solicitors have to act on their clients behalf, even if they think the client has a case or not, however they can advise as to wether it is worth persuing or not and in this case my guess it would be the latter.

As for the nature of the shoot to my way of thinking she should have asked in what the photo was going to be connected with before giving permission.

Waiting 12 months before raising an objection wouldn't go favourably in a court of law and
if it went that far more than likely get thrown out.


This is just my opinion and has no legal basis

Anyway who is looking at her horse ,I had a quick glance in the link and never got around to looking at the horse :whistle: :whistle:

Realspeed
 
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arkadarka said:
I would wait before seeing a lawyer as it will cost you but if you wait until you are contacted by her lawyer you'd get legal aid


Check this with citizens advice
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a) many solicitors do a free 15 miniute initial consultation , so it wouldnt necessarily cost anything - even if it did cost £50 or so its still better to have a definitive answer than to wind up in a four/five figure legal battle through taking the advice of non experts

b) there is no guarantee he would get legal aid , that would depend on income, assests

and

c) CAB are okay for common stuff like consumers rights , but for a question like this they are likely to know nada

(also if the OP is a pro i'd suggest checking your insurance - many feature legal assistance cover , precisely for this sort of sitiuation)
 
Along with many others I'd seek legal advice for this........

but for my 2p worth its hard to see exactly what she could peruse. I don't think she has a leg to stand on. You legally borrowed the horse, and did nothing wrong in conducting the photo hoot with the stables permission. It seems to me her gripe should be with the stables.

I suspect she's after a cut of what she sees as a money making scheme for you.
 
Did you take a photo of the horse in a shopping centre? We're experts about what can be done then. :naughty:
 
what reason is she giving for not wanting them used? she knows theyre for charity and not profit?

id be interested to know the outcome of this, thinking about it we've probably shot some horsey shoots with riders having loan horses..
 
I know that farmer told Rhianna to sling her hook the other day but that was land based permission and happening at the time. This is a horse (that as far as we know was not traumatised by the event) and a year down the line - I can't quite believe someone would do this so late in the day and especially when it involves a charity.

Like everyone has said, consult a professional if you want advice.

If she kicks up too much of a stink could you counter sue for loss of sales & get her arrested for harassment?
 
I urge you to err on the side of caution. I agree that on the face of it her gripe is with the landowner, but the fact is her horse has been used unbeknown to her, for a financial undertaking, albeit a charitable one, which opens a whole other can of worms if she wants to seek payment for that, and of it comes to a fight, a court might well decide that the onus was upon you to ensure that owner of the horse was aware of the full nature of the shoot.

I don't know in all honesty , but if it was me I'd want to get some pretty good advice on my legal position.
 
animals are not copyrighted she has no legal standing not to let you use the images or have them online.




andymonk said:
Wondered if anyone had any advice to offer please. I'm being threatened with legal action over a "Calendar Girls" style horse riding calendar I am creating for charity.

We borrowed a horse from a stables in North Yorkshire to do a shoot for the calendar. The stables (unbeknown to me at the time) gave us one of their customers horses for an hour, after asking the owners permission to do so of course.

Almost twelve months on and the girl who owns the horse has just emailed me telling me not to use any of the photographs and to remove all photographs with her horse on from the website, Facebook, and the calendar, or she will take legal action against me! She's also been posting threatening messages on our facebook pages.

The calendar is being printed right now. All proceeds are going to Multiple Sclerosis and Leukodystrophy research.

What to do? There is no law that I know of saying you can't take photographs of animals, unless they are on the owners own private property, in which case you need the owners permission, but these were taken on land owned by the stables and anyway, she did give her permission in the first place, though it has turned out that she wasn't told of the nature of the shoot.

The photos are at *link removed*
andy
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See a lawyer, but as I understand it unless you have a signed release from her allowing her animal to be used commercially, she can halt the whole thing.
 
PsiFox said:
See a lawyer, but as I understand it unless you have a signed release from her allowing her animal to be used commercially, she can halt the whole thing.
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Can she? As far as I was aware model releases had no legal power in the uk. Not that the horse can sign one.. :-/
 
If there is anything more weird than a horse...it's a horse owner.

Has she stated what she is objecting too?
 
PsiFox said:
See a lawyer, but as I understand it unless you have a signed release from her allowing her animal to be used commercially, she can halt the whole thing.
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you (neil G) are correct wrt model releases - i presume the issue psifox refers to relates to permission to use the actual horse for a comercial purpose - ie the photoshoot - its a complex ara where proffesional advice may well be needed
 
I think naming and shaming in local newspaper would be an excellent way of raising your funds for charity, you could talk to the newspapers lawyers about the legality as well as getting the publicity, but somehow you do need a definitive legal answer.
 
johnny8977 said:
And lastly, from what I can find out, under these circumstances, the horse is classed in law as property. So it's exactly the same as her car. Do you think you can sue someone for taking pictures of your car?
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That depends on whether the images are being used commercially (in which case a property release is required) as opposed to usage which is artistic, newsworthy, or editorial (which most calendars would be, providing they're not endorsing something). In the latter three instances generally you may publish and profit from the pictures. However this calendar is promoting and therefore potentially 'advertising' the charities mentioned and only a qualified media lawyer (as opposed to a bog standard solicitor) can help you answer that one if it comes to it, which hopefully it will not if this is handled carefully.

As has been said your contract was with the stables.

The horse owner is affronted because it appears her horse was used without her permission. The stables will need to explain the oversight and hope that she'll see that it was in a good cause and was a genuine error.
 
My view is that she is a calculating B..ch, she has waited for you to process all of the photographs, and then push them out to print.
She now thinks that she can put the frighteners on you with the aim to extract some cash.
As many others have stated the contract was between you and the stables.
Sit back (easy for me to say) and proceed with your charitable project.
 
bulldog5988 said:
My view is that she is a calculating B..ch, she has waited for you to process all of the photographs, and then push them out to print.
She now thinks that she can put the frighteners on you with the aim to extract some cash.
As many others have stated the contract was between you and the stables.
Sit back (easy for me to say) and proceed with your charitable project.
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That seems an extremely harsh view based on limited info from one side of a story!
 
I agree the OP should just sit back and see what happens. Hopefully the horse owner's anger will wear off after she's had a rant at the stables. She'll then realise the cost involved in legal action and will hopefully do the sensible thing and accept this was accidental.
 
That seems an extremely harsh view based on limited info from one side of a story!
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maybe so, but experience over many years tells me that people will try anything when it comes to money.
 
Try the citizens advice bureau.

All the best. She sounds like an absolute BITCH.
 
andsome said:
Try the citizens advice bureau.

All the best. She sounds like an absolute BITCH.
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That's an interesting assumption based on one side of a story
 
First post ever from the OP on this forum and he gets lots of people looking at his calendar shots - am I just a cynical old (insert your own word here) ?
 
I have no idea about the legal implications of this, and I'm not even going to try and comment; but the OP didn't mention any request for payment, and I find it pretty distasteful to call someone a bitch based on an internet post.
 
Just a personal opinion to which I feel entitled, but it seems very bitchy to me to wait this long and let someone get involved in expese on behalf of a charity, then step in with demands.
 
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