What a disgrace.....

A new local magazine didn't even bother to ask for submissions.. they just ripped images from Flickr and other online hosting sites. No acknowledgement or payment. Fortunately there are some locals with keen eyes that theought, "hang on, I've seen this somewhere before".

Since the first issue and the unexpected invoices they received there have been far fewer photographs in subsequent issues..
 
Thing with that advert is they will get loads and loads of good pics, you will get the normal run of the mill person with a p&s that thinks ye thats a goos idea and send it in, what is it to them, a snap shot that they got lucky with, and they feel great cos their name is in the book.

Before I joined this site I knew nothing of copyright, getting paid, should I be paid etc etc so me reading that add I might have sent in a pic.

spike
 
I can't see anything wrong with asking for photo submissions as long as they are up front with the facts. People are then free to decide if they want to submit or not. Why this obsession with money? Unless you do photography for a living it does not matter - getting enjoyment is the main goal.
 
+1
 
boliston said:
I can't see anything wrong with asking for photo submissions as long as they are up front with the facts. People are then free to decide if they want to submit or not. Why this obsession with money? Unless you do photography for a living it does not matter - getting enjoyment is the main goal.
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Of course, they are up front, have said what they will be used for in the first instance, they will then use the images for other publications, as per the conditions detailed in the article.

Now as a commercial enterprise they will have a budget to produce the publication, if they can get people to submit for free they will save more of their budget.
If they have no budget why are they producing the book in the first place, are the writers of the book doing it for nothing, what about the printers ? Will they be charging and making a profit from the book - probably.

This is not a small organisation and the agreement will be with the larger organisation I would imagine - so bingo, free content, which in my eyes is plain wrong.

I photograph people, although living in the Lakes I do have some landscapes, this does not effect me, what next though, write us a story for the paper and we will publish it - please look at the bigger picture and that is businesses that make millions in profit trying it on with people that SHOULD be paid !
 
dseered said:
.....
This is not a small organisation and the agreement will be with the larger organisation I would imagine - so bingo, free content, which in my eyes is plain wrong.
.....
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The "free content" business model is I'm afraid firmly established.

Every time you make a post on this forum you are technically providing "free content" for the owners of this forum.

In fact I'd say the bulk of websites work on this model to some extent.
 
boliston said:
The "free content" business model is I'm afraid firmly established.

Every time you make a post on this forum you are technically providing "free content" for the owners of this forum.

In fact I'd say the bulk of websites work on this model to some extent.
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I don't disagree with you and know how it all works, this does not mean I should accept it, if you want to give your work away for a credit then fill your boots.

I am simply pointing out that in my opinion it is morally wrong for them to be doing this !
 
If people are willing to submit the photos for free so be it! Theres nothing you can do about it!

It is not at all wrong for them to do it.

Is it also wrong for photo printers to offer 50 free prints when smaller rivals can't afford such?
Is it wrong to eat a free muffin sample on display?
Or using a free drinks voucher given out by a new cafe?

Whats so different about using a free photo supplied if people are willing?

Its not immoral! Its business! I'm sure at some point you have negotiated a price or got a freeby or something.
 
boliston said:
I can't see anything wrong with asking for photo submissions as long as they are up front with the facts. People are then free to decide if they want to submit or not. Why this obsession with money? Unless you do photography for a living it does not matter - getting enjoyment is the main goal.
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Agree 100%. While getting paid would be great, just being published at all would be an excellent achievement for me. Though I suspect I'd ask for a copy of the publication.
 
Maybe we should swamp them with bad photographs, the cat etc and make it a pain in the backside finding the good ones.
 
dseered said:
if you want to give your work away for a credit then fill your boots.
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Good. I generally allow my photos to be use in return for a credit, provided someone asks first. I do not want payment, if I accept any sort of monetary payment I'll have to get specialist photographic insurance on my kit as even accepting 1p will void the house contents (theft & accidental damage) cover on it.

Unless I were making regular sales it would cost me overall to be paid for my work. Since this is a hobby and I have a full time job to pay the mortgage, I have been known to give my work away when asked, or refuse, but never ask for payment.

My photos, my choice.
 
At least they are being up front about it for a change, rather than burying it in the small print of a photo competition.
 
boliston said:
I can't see anything wrong with asking for photo submissions as long as they are up front with the facts. People are then free to decide if they want to submit or not. Why this obsession with money? Unless you do photography for a living it does not matter - getting enjoyment is the main goal.
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Well said that man! (y)
 
I assume they run on a shoestring. At least it looks good to get one of your prints published. Tbh it's a small local newspaper, unless they sell the pictures on (which would be a disgrace) I don't see it as a major issue? It's like a competition displaying your entry as a applicant. Hardly world ending stuff.
 
kilbofragins said:
I assume they run on a shoestring. At least it looks good to get one of your prints published. Tbh it's a small local newspaper, unless they sell the pictures on (which would be a disgrace) I don't see it as a major issue? It's like a competition displaying your entry as a applicant. Hardly world ending stuff.
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Yeah, of course it is:

Newsquest is a subsidiary of Gannett Co., Inc. We serve our customers through:

* 17 daily paid-for titles, more than 200 weekly newspapers, magazines and trade publications, and a network of award-winning Web sites
* a weekly readership of more than 13 million
* a weekly circulation of more than 10 million copies
* a digital portfolio of newspaper and online-only brands which attract more than 6 million unique users
* more than 5,000 employees
* six newspaper printing sites
* a network of more than 180 local newspaper and portal websites
* direct marketing and door-to-door delivery
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I love the altruism of people that say free submissions to the locals don't hurt anyone, because it is complete and utter rubbish. Local papers now expect most if not all non commissioned submissions to be handed over for gratis, and if payments is expected by the photographer the classic 'No Budget' response is wheeled out.
 
Hardly altruism, but its up to each individual to decide whether they want paying and if so how much.

If people want to do it for free well that's there choice.

The internet has changed people's expectations of what has to be paid for - whether you think in a good or bad way, but it isn't possible to return to "the old" way.
 
You will also find most if those papers/magazines will have their own budgets and need to be profitable in their own right. I guess you haven't submitted a shot :) or maybe you have and this is a way to fend off the competition lol ;)
 
simonw said:
Hardly altruism, but its up to each individual to decide whether they want paying and if so how much.

If people want to do it for free well that's there choice.

The internet has changed people's expectations of what has to be paid for - whether you think in a good or bad way, but it isn't possible to return to "the old" way.
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The other side of the coin is how would you feel if I set up next door to your job and gave away the same service for free, how long before your in the queue at the job centre I wonder?
Rember this is how some people have to make a living.
 
Submit a picture for free use over an entire media outlet that turns over some $7bn a year? I don't think so thanks.
 
swanseamale47 said:
The other side of the coin is how would you feel if I set up next door to your job and gave away the same service for free, how long before your in the queue at the job centre I wonder?
Rember this is how some people have to make a living.
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But the point is you could'nt..........why should i have to think about the fact its how some people make a living - the original post was about a competition :shrug:...... Do you think that every time you shop at a supermarket you could be putting a local store out of business, every time you shop at tesco you could endanger a checkout operators job at ASDA ? whats different about photography. There my photos, i took them i can do what i want with them.
 
Asda don't give away food for free, if they did everybody and his cat would be shooping there and Tesco would soon go belly up.
 
swanseamale47 said:
Asda don't give away food for free, if they did everybody and his cat would be shooping there and Tesco would soon go belly up.
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But they wouldn't - because ASDA would go tits up first because they rely on sales to pay there employees and suppliers. Just like you would if you

swanseamale47 said:
set up next door to your job and gave away the same service for free, how long before your in the queue at the job centre I wonder?.
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Where as photography is purely a pastime for me and has no need to provide a financial return - only enjoyment
 
boliston said:
I can't see anything wrong with asking for photo submissions as long as they are up front with the facts. People are then free to decide if they want to submit or not. Why this obsession with money? Unless you do photography for a living it does not matter - getting enjoyment is the main goal.
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:agree:

There are some very good professionals on here and I can see their point.

However, probably as in all walks of life, they are outnumbered by amatures. That is where the issues lies....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amature
An amateur (French amateur "lover of", from Old French and ultimately from Latin amatorem nom. amator, "lover") is generally considered a person attached to a particular pursuit, study, or science, without pay and often without formal training
 
Dogfish_magnet said:
But the point is you could'nt..........why should i have to think about the fact its how some people make a living - the original post was about a competition :shrug:...... Do you think that every time you shop at a supermarket you could be putting a local store out of business, every time you shop at tesco you could endanger a checkout operators job at ASDA ? whats different about photography. There my photos, i took them i can do what i want with them.
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I can't see it say 'Competition' anywhere ?
 
Dogfish_magnet said:
But they wouldn't - because ASDA would go tits up first because they rely on sales to pay there employees and suppliers. Just like you would if you



Where as photography is purely a pastime for me and has no need to provide a financial return - only enjoyment
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Exactly my point, if everybody did your job for nothing why would anyone pay YOU to do it.
 
But it's not like someone is taking every picture in the world for free? It is a local comp. It's like saying that I deliver my own Christmas cards to people I know therefore I am putting Royal Mail out of business. I would guess it's of a similar scale.
 
swanseamale47 said:
Exactly my point, if everybody did your job for nothing why would anyone pay YOU to do it.
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But the difference is they cant simple as......unless they have the same skills set , but more importantly they would need another source of income to support them and their family while doing my job for free (and why anyone would do my job as a form of relaxation and enjoyment I'd never know :) ) but anyone can buy a camera and submit a picture for consideration without any affect on there income.

I and many others just don't see photography as a source of income and allow our pictures to be used for free although when i have been approached for commercial use I've asked for a donation to the RNLI, but where I've submitted photos to commercial organizations that have been used in print and by various BBC TV programs and websites i have not asked or wanted payment.
 
kilbofragins said:
But it's not like someone is taking every picture in the world for free? It is a local comp. It's like saying that I deliver my own Christmas cards to people I know therefore I am putting Royal Mail out of business. I would guess it's of a similar scale.
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Read - its not a competition. I have also had confirmation that the book will be for sale.

To be honest, it was wrong to post on this forum.
 
dseered said:
I am dismayed at this request from our local paper, full rights to reproduce across their network and online, "sorry we don't have any money but will credit"

Sadly the comments section is closed.

http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co...your_beautiful_pictures_of_the_Lake_District/

Posted back in December, so I guess folk will have already been stung !
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Don't you remember Channel 4's request a few years back for people to submit images for display on their website? The small print gave C4 full rights to the image, however if there were any legal proceedings arising from C4's use of the images then it was the photographer who was expected to pick up the court costs - including those of C4....
 
swanseamale47 said:
Exactly my point, if everybody did your job for nothing why would anyone pay YOU to do it.
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A lot of people do my job for nothing, read the computers forum at the bottom of the main page. Plenty of people offering free computer / networking information, which my job encompasses. Including me :shrug:

Plenty of togs come on here asking for free computing advice too ;)
 
Both my local rags, part of bigger groups, do not pay for images from anyone, however good and whatever the subject may be.
However, they are quite happy to accept "reader photo's".

One of them actually has a Flickr group, and by joining that group you give them permission to use your photo's.
So, please be careful what groups you join and your pictures may not be stolen, you have allowed it.
 
swanseamale47 said:
The other side of the coin is how would you feel if I set up next door to your job and gave away the same service for free, how long before your in the queue at the job centre I wonder?
Rember this is how some people have to make a living.
Click to expand...

Any one is free to try and do my job for less.

We live in a market economy and photography is an industry that has some of the lowest barriers to entry of any industry. Hence why it pays so poorly for most people.

If you want to make money doing it then you have to have some way of differentiating your product from the general mass of photographers.

But for most of us who own a camera its just a hobby because we could never make enough money to live on doing it (wither due to lack of skills lack of drive lack of opportunity) and if we wish to give the results of that hobby away for free or alternatively charge a fee that's up to us.


I've done both - given away and charged - depending on how I view the organisation who wants the picture.
 
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