What is the matter with parents :(

[Gremlin]

Not even 2 months into 2014 and already 2 babies have been killed in their own homes by so called family pets
When will people learn that leaving dogs alone with children is never a good idea
Of course it will bring another call for yet more laws to ban certain breeds ot licencing which
will make absolutely no difference as the present laws aren't be upheld even when offenders are
reported

Baby killed 11/2/14
Baby killed 18/2/14

 

[CaveDweller]

It was only half hour ago my wife was on about the whole dogs killing kids thing and how she thought it was on the rise. My dogs are brilliant with the kids. I've had them from pups and they were always around children, but as good as they they are always watched around the kids and are certainly not left alone with them. Dog's have feelings too and they can get annoyed or even hurt by the kids. Luckily for me my family is dog mad so I have a good understanding of their behaviour. I know what signs to look for when the dogs have had enough and that's when to separate them from the kids.

I haven't had any accidents yet between the kids and dogs but you never know, always keep your eyes open.

 

[cambsno]

People caught with an illegal dog should go to jail for 10 years - no ifs or buts.

 

[Tigger.ufo]

People caught with an illegal dog should go to jail for 10 years - no ifs or buts.

However, this latest attack was not by a banned breed.

I cannot understand why anyone would leave a baby/child with any dog, however much you think it will be fine, they are pack animals and act on instinct.

 

[Gremlin]

Exactly Paul, I have had up to 4 dogs of my own at any one time as well as holiday visiting extras, you have to be vigilant.
Biggest problem I had were with visiting brats who didn't understand, sadly this normally meant the dogs were shut away
for everyone's safety

People caught with an illegal dog should go to jail for 10 years - no ifs or buts.

As heather has pointed out, the latest was not a banned breed and last year a baby was killed by a Jack Russell.
So while I do agree with you, I also don't think the DDA has made any difference whatsoever, it was just a knee jerk
reaction to something that now seems to be all too common place.
Like many of these Laws, they are done to appease and rarely enforced

 

[Steep]

The only dangerous 'breed' is Human, we should know that all pets have the potential to harm and need to be properly cared for by competent owners. My own JR was great with everyone but I never lost sight of the fact that she was a dog and capable of turning on anyone or anything she thought was a threat or food. Amply demonstrated the one time in her life she caught a rabbit, she had it dead in seconds and then didn't know what to do with it.

 

[SarahLee]

I was having exactly the same conversation with my mum last night.
You NEVER leave a dog unattended with babies or young children . . . ANY dog, no matter what the breed or how gentle they are.

Stella loves kids and is fantastic with them. In fact, walking her in the summer when the kids are out playing is a nightmare - it takes 20 minutes just to get to the end of the road by the time everyone's come over to say 'hello' to her and give her a fuss (and the same on the way home) BUT that contact is always closely supervised and controlled so that if there's a time when it all starts to get too much for her I can take her out of the situation.

It doesn't take away from the tragedy of what's happened in these cases, but I don't think 'bad dogs' attacking kids is on the rise at all . . . more an increase of dog ownership by people who don't fully understand animals.
I just hope that others can learn from it.

 

[Yv]

The only dangerous 'breed' is Human, we should know that all pets have the potential to harm and need to be properly cared for by competent owners. My own JR was great with everyone but I never lost sight of the fact that she was a dog and capable of turning on anyone or anything she thought was a threat or food. Amply demonstrated the one time in her life she caught a rabbit, she had it dead in seconds and then didn't know what to do with it.

exactly this - from another owner of very, if not overly, friendly jack russells that has also watched them deal with rats and 1 rabbit. The DDA was a knee jerk, and as much as I support local rescues, I cannot support the introduction of licencing either, for two reasons - 1, a licence will not help 'ignorant' owners be better owners or have more understanding of their pet and how to live safely with it and 2, those that do own dogs ['illegal' or otherwise] purely to train that dog to be aggressive will pay absolutely no heed to the legal requirement to have a licence anyway.

 

[scott199]

while in theory i agree totally with everything said.

i do believe its slightly naive to be able to say "never"

we had a collie, got her at 8 weeks, all ready had 2 older children and a baby, she was a great dog called Lady, loved the kids and protected them like they were here own.

yet one day she turned and went for our 10 year old, drew blood on her arm, face and leg.

to this day nobody knows why or how, it was just a normal day, our daughter walked into the living room and as she walked out into the hallway Lady just attacked her.

I think people have to realise, theirs no law that can solve this, no amount of rules or regulations, its not a breed or certain breeds.

i think people need to wake up, its something that does and will always happen, as horrible as it is, having an animal, you assume risk, its just that simple.

 

[Gazamonk]

By no way or means excusing what has happened or intention of any justifying or debating the merits or otherwise of dog ownership. I am as abhorred as the next person. However just as a matter of perspective.

19 people killed by dogs since 2005
117 people murdered by people in 2013 alone.

Pack animals have a better record than us and that is a sadder statistic than any other.

 

[cambsno]

I guess, even if you are careful, all it takes is a door to not shut properly or to be left ajar...

 

[Nikon_Nick]

As a dog owner/lover for many years, I always hate to see this kind of story. I consider myself to be an extremely responsible dog owner. 6 years ago, my partner and I rescued two Rottweilers, and we knew that we would need to do everything possible to ensure that they were obedient and well behaved around other people and other dogs. Lots of training later, and we had two wonderful loving/caring/gentle dogs that were extremely respectful and freindly towards everyone they ever met. Fast forward 6 years and we ow only have 1 as we lost one in August last year to extreme Artheritis. In October last year, we had our first child, and no matter how well behaved/gentle Tess is, there is absolutely no way on earth that I would ever leave her alone around the baby...just common sense, surely?

What I have found from experience, attending various obediance classes and shows is this. The dogs that were treated like children/babies by their owners, were always the ones that were badly behaved and aggressive towards other people and other dogs. We do of course love our dog, but we do treat her as a dog. She has rules and boundaries to stick to. Im not saying this is exactly the problem in this country or that these two tragedies were the result of the owners babying their dogs, it is just an observation.

 

[neil_g]

What I have found from experience, attending various obediance classes and shows is this. The dogs that were treated like children/babies by their owners, were always the ones that were badly behaved and aggressive towards other people and other dogs. We do of course love our dog, but we do treat her as a dog. She has rules and boundaries to stick to. Im not saying this is exactly the problem in this country or that these two tragedies were the result of the owners babying their dogs, it is just an observation.

this exactly.

 

[Gremlin]

The DDA was a knee jerk, and as much as I support local rescues, I cannot support the introduction of licencing either, for two reasons - 1, a licence will not help 'ignorant' owners be better owners or have more understanding of their pet and how to live safely with it and 2, those that do own dogs ['illegal' or otherwise] purely to train that dog to be aggressive will pay absolutely no heed to the legal requirement to have a licence anyway.

Can't argue with that Yvonne and even the SPCA agreed it wouldn't work as only the caring owners would bother, those that don't wouldn't
get caught because there just aren't the resources to police it

 

[akr]

Do we know if they were left alone?

I'd say if you want to follow this through you should not have a dog and young children. There is always the potential for children to be left alone \ unattended - it is easy to get distracted as a parent \ have an accident \ faint \ a door not to close properly \ going to look after another ill child etc etc. I'm sure everyone sets out not to leave them alone but with the best will in the world there will in the world I can't believe there are not times this does not occur, or times you are too far away to do anything before the damage is done.

Very sad in any event.

 

[hoochy1]

People caught with an illegal dog should go to jail for 10 years - no ifs or buts.

i dont agree with that at all i many many years ago i owned i pit and she was the most loving dog you could meet she used to get up on my sons bed and sleep with her head next to him by the way there is still true pits out there so the dda did not kill the breed out i have had many dogs in my family over a lot of years the thing they need to get across is never trust a dog a 100% and never leave them alone with kids they need to educate the owners not kill a breed or breeds out that have been here for hundreds of years , by the way ANY AND I DO MEAN ANY dog can be a killer in the rite situation

 

[gramps]

Problem is so many 'owners' view their pets as 'part of the family' ... I can understand why, but assigning human qualities and emotions to a dog is foolhardy.
Treating the dog as a member of the family may well give it more freedom to act than it should have.

 

[Gremlin]

i dont agree with that at all i many many years ago i owned i pit and she was the most loving dog you could meet by the way ANY AND I DO MEAN ANY dog can be a killer in the rite situation

I have met a few pits too and not had a problem with any of them, properly socialised and trained they are fine, trouble is since the DDA many have been kept and bred by the wrong types, for the wrong reasons and this has led to more problems

 

[ecoleman]

Who said the baby was killed by the dog? Everybody jumping to conclusions again.

 

[gramps]

Reports say the mother ran out into the street saying 'the dog's eaten my baby's head' ... not conclusive evidence but a good indicator I would say

 

[ecoleman]

Somebody should tell that to the BBC then. Just watched the news where they said the cause of death was still under investigation and a postmortem still hasn't been done.

 

[big soft moose]

Do we know if they were left alone?

I'd say if you want to follow this through you should not have a dog and young children. There is always the potential for children to be left alone \ unattended - it is easy to get distracted as a parent \ have an accident \ faint \ a door not to close properly \ going to look after another ill child etc etc. I'm sure everyone sets out not to leave them alone but with the best will in the world there will in the world I can't believe there are not times this does not occur, or times you are too far away to do anything before the damage is done.

Very sad in any event.

Muzzle the dog if children are in the house- problem solved

Also while you have a point to an extent in neither of the recent cases were the parents fainted/had an accident/looking after another ill child - in the january case the mother had let her new boyfreind bring his pitbull round and then left it unsupervised with the child ... not very clever (In fact didnt the police arrest both of them on charges of neglect)

 

[Gremlin]

Muzzle the dog if children are in the house- problem solved

Really ?
Are you honestly serious that you think it fair for a dog to be muzzled 24/7 ?
That means it has to put up with whatever a child wants to do to it, surely it is far better
for the children to be taught some respect and parents to actually learn not to leave the kids
alone with any animal ?

 

[big soft moose]

Really ?
Are you honestly serious that you think it fair for a dog to be muzzled 24/7 ?
That means it has to put up with whatever a child wants to do to it, surely it is far better
for the children to be taught some respect and parents to actually learn not to leave the kids
alone with any animal ?

If the alternative to it ripping a childs face off is putting up with the childs behaviour then yes - that is the preferable option, however who's talking about 24/7 - I was responding to someone who said they couldnt keep an eye on their child and their dog - in that circumstance its better for the dog to be muzzled than it is for it to wind up being PTS as a result of a parents negligence.

Personally I don't have kids, but if children visit the house (which doesnt happen often) the dog is either muzzled or put in her crate .

However i do also agree that children should be taught to respect animals , and parents should take responsibility for keeping an eye on their kids - sadly though a lot of parents are morons ( only last week i encountered a mother encouraging her two year old to paddle in an 8 ft swell because "he needs to experience the ferocity of the elements ") and dog owners need to bear that in mind - ie its not wise to assume that a parent won't let their little brat pull your dogs ears/tail/ whatever, and it will be your dog that pays the price at the end of the day if something bad happens

 

[Gremlin]

So in effect what you are saying is that all dogs should be muzzled in public as well, because with the best will in the world we can't always be sure
that some brat child won't come running up to them.
I've had this happen many times and parents seem to think it's fine for their kid to come up and grab my dog, luckily the dogs were ok with it
having been socialised well with kids, although with the latter 3 dogs my girls were slightly older, I made an effort to get them used to younger kids.
My huge but gorgeous rescue GSD was a total child magnet for some reason and he was fine with young children sitting on, grabbing him etc. but I can assure
you the parents got told what could happen if they didn't stop their little darlings running up to strange dogs.
Yes it took a lot of time and effort to get an untrained, unsocialised GSD to that stage, but it can be done if people are willing to put the effort in,
these days dogs just seem to be a must have with little thought to their needs, and that is in my mind the problem.

 

[Gazamonk]

Gremlin a child running up to a dog is just a child not a Brat child (nice attitude). It also might be an idea to tell people what a GSD is, not everyone is a massive GSD fan. I dont know what a GSD is but I do have a BFLD which is KOALWITHFAW.

 

[Forbiddenbiker]

I heard a great snippet on London radio talk show this morning, missed the guys name who rang in but amongst much great advice he suggested the wonderful thing about those tough fighting breeds history's is they have a high pain threshold built in.... Which is great when tiny tots thrash them with sticks, poke an eye out or other such painful blunders because they don't get upset that much. Unlike other dog types who might snap back or worse. ..food for thought, I though.

 

[MartynK]

Gremlin a child running up to a dog is just a child not a Brat child (nice attitude). It also might be an idea to tell people what a GSD is, not everyone is a massive GSD fan. I dont know what a GSD is but I do have a BFLD which is KOALWITHFAW.

This reminds me of a story I heard about a group of people on safari who heard mysterious noises in the bush and asked their guide what it was. "Oh, just a BST" he replied. "What's that?". "Big snarly thing".

 

[Yv]

Gremlin a child running up to a dog is just a child not a Brat child (nice attitude). It also might be an idea to tell people what a GSD is, not everyone is a massive GSD fan. I dont know what a GSD is but I do have a BFLD which is KOALWITHFAW.

Both my kids are brats, have been since they were toddlers and still are, both of them being in their 20's! As for acronyms, I bet you have never used ISO when talking to non or amateur photographers have you.... Seriously though, shall we keep to the matter in hand?

Muzzling...hmmm... yes, in some circumstances it is the right thing to do but you could indeed take that to its ultimate level of any dog having to be muzzled whenever it is in a public place which seems a bit extreme - you might as well say that all children under 8 should be on reins in a public place. However, that is broadening the net a bit beyond what we were initially discussing, which is parents [or grandparents or other immediate family likely to be around a child a lot] not being more careful when about how and when they mix with family pets. Sadly, the modern day way to deal with such ignorance seems to be to make more and more [and often unpolicable] laws. What happened to all those public information adverts of the 70's eh?

 

[Gazamonk]

Whats ISO ?

 

[big soft moose]

So in effect what you are saying is that all dogs should be muzzled in public as well, because with the best will in the world we can't always be sure.

there's no need if the dog is on a lead - unless the dog is so unruly that it will attack even if its owner is present - however if an owner is letting the dog run off the lead , really it shouldn't be where there is a high probability of kids being present - if the owner insists on letting the dog run in areas where theres a good chance of meeting kids (which I don't) then yes muzzling is one answer.

yes I agree that a child that runs up to a strange dog like an idiot is an ill behaved brat who's parents should be ashamed of their lack of upbringing skills , but it will still be your german shepherd that pays the price if it bites one, whatever the provocation - this may not be right, but its how it is.

So really its a simple choice would you rather the dog was muzzled in public or that it was confiscated by the police and destroyed even though an incident wasn't its/your fault ? - saying you'd rather kids were brought up proper itsnt an answer because they aren't (well not all of them anyway)

 

[big soft moose]

Gremlin a child running up to a dog is just a child not a Brat child (nice attitude).

sorry but I'm with Ingrid on this - well behaved kids with responsible parents don't run up to strange dogs and try and hug/poke / otherwise interfere with them - ill behaved little brats who's parents either haven't bothered to instil any sense of respect for animals , or if the kid is too young to be responsible aren't properly supervising them because they are too busy talking to their friends instead of actually y'know parenting , on the other hand do.

 

[Cobra]

Gremlin a child running up to a dog is just a child not a Brat child (nice attitude). It also might be an idea to tell people what a GSD is, not everyone is a massive GSD fan. I dont know what a GSD is but I do have a BFLD which is KOALWITHFAW.

Certain acronyms are of course acceptable every day language, within given fields.
GSD, GSP, HPR etc are well know within the dog world.
Others that people make them up to suit themselves however only serve to confuse issues.

Muzzling...hmmm... yes, in some circumstances it is the right thing to do but you could indeed take that to its ultimate level of any dog having to be muzzled whenever it is in a public place which seems a bit extreme - you might as well say that all children under 18 should be on reins in a public place.

Couldn't agree more

Whats ISO ?

Hope this helps

 

[trencheel303]

Exactly Paul, I have had up to 4 dogs of my own at any one time as well as holiday visiting extras, you have to be vigilant.
Biggest problem I had were with visiting brats who didn't understand, sadly this normally meant the dogs were shut away
for everyone's safety



As heather has pointed out, the latest was not a banned breed and last year a baby was killed by a Jack Russell.
So while I do agree with you, I also don't think the DDA has made any difference whatsoever, it was just a knee jerk
reaction to something that now seems to be all too common place.
Like many of these Laws, they are done to appease and rarely enforced

The pack theory is oft debated - but I do agree that instinct counts for a lot.

As for jack Russell, all I can say is my experience of them is that they are horrible yappy dogs. Someone I work with has one and quite frankly it's a horrible animal. Just nothing at all when you look into its eyes. So this doesn't surprise me.

 

[Tigger.ufo]

Hope this helps

You're ssssso sssssweet.

 

[Gupster]

My sister has owned a Malamute (the breed involved in this latest tragic incident) for the last 3 years or so.

We've always been a family of dog owners and pride ourselves on the temperament of the dogs we've had.

However, when my sister started expressing an interest in purchasing a Malamute the local breeders (to there great credit) were completely honest about the type of dog that they are. In order to ensure that the dog became a great family pet the whole family had to show it that it was at the bottom of the pecking order. This had to be done over a period of time through various methods but it was absolutely vital that it had to know its place right from the start. It's now a fantastic family pet.

A Malamutes pack mentality is deeply ingrained. The distance from it's wild/semi domesticated past is very much shorter than your average Retriever or Labrador and this needs to be taken into account before you commit to accepting one into your family.

Regardless of how well integrated the Malamute in the news story was previously, to introduce another pack member, in this instance in the form of a baby, would have had a significant affect on the dog.

I can't begin to imagine how the parents are feeling at the moment and my heart goes out to them but you can see how this dreadful incident could have come about.

 

[Gremlin]

there's no need if the dog is on a lead - unless the dog is so unruly that it will attack even if its owner is present - however if an owner is letting the dog run off the lead , really it shouldn't be where there is a high probability of kids being present - if the owner insists on letting the dog run in areas where theres a good chance of meeting kids (which I don't) then yes muzzling is one answer.

yes I agree that a child that runs up to a strange dog like an idiot is an ill behaved brat who's parents should be ashamed of their lack of upbringing skills , but it will still be your german shepherd that pays the price if it bites one, whatever the provocation - this may not be right, but its how it is.

So really its a simple choice would you rather the dog was muzzled in public or that it was confiscated by the police and destroyed even though an incident wasn't its/your fault ? - saying you'd rather kids were brought up proper itsnt an answer because they aren't (well not all of them anyway)

Don't remember anything about only dogs off leads being muzzled ?
TBH it was never a problem when the dogs were running free they could just
avoid kids, it normally happened when the dogs were on leads, walking to the local shop
or enroute to the fields

The pack theory is oft debated - but I do agree that instinct counts for a lot.
.

I don't and never have subscribed to the pack theory, always had a minimum of 2 dogs and never had a problem with them doing as I asked

 

[Cobra]

You're ssssso sssssweet.

Well thank you kindly

 

[lizzy23]

Don't remember anything about only dogs off leads being muzzled ?
TBH it was never a problem when the dogs were running free they could just
avoid kids, it normally happened when the dogs were on leads, walking to the local shop
or enroute to the fields



I don't and never have subscribed to the pack theory, always had a minimum of 2 dogs and never had a problem with them doing as I asked

Me as well I have spaniels all will actively avoid children, but they are cute and a "safe" breed so people think its fine for their kids to come running up to them, one of them hates kids, and another is frightened, they are on leads anywhere where they are likely to come into contact, and I do actively put myself in front of them, it's my responsibility to keep them safe, I also don't subscribe to the pack theory, I currently am away with 7 and all do what I ask without me thinking I'm top dog, it's all based on trust and respect


Sent from my iPhone using Talk Photography Forums

 

[big soft moose]

, it normally happened when the dogs were on leads, walking to the local shop

to have the dog bite someone while its on a lead is just bonkers - I mean WTF is the owner doing ? tbh if a dog bites while its on the lead its either so badly behaved that it should have been muzzled (and or not taken out in public in the first place ) or the owner is a dimwit who isn't paying attention to what is going on with their dog.

small child runs up to your dog while its on a lead the options are simple either pull the dog away or say '**** of you little brat' or words to that effect