Whatever happened to Camera-craft?

What meaning does the image of the house burning while the fireman buys pumpkins convey?
I think this one is strange because it DOES need explanation to work, but, also, for it to work the artist cannot provide them.

It is an interesting image, and one often used in undergraduate courses. The IMPLIED meaning is obvious. The callousness of the fireman choosing a pumpkin while the house burns is obviously speaking of the selfishness of humanity and the duplicity of your fellow man. However... and THIS is what I[m talking about @big soft moose ... Without explanation, one would never know that is not a real house fire and is actually an exercise for the fire crew.

Images can say a thousand words. Doesn't mean they're the right words to give the story.
 
Some, yes.

Most people who decry art are just fearful of it though... or don't understand it, or are jealous of it. Some genuinely don't give a s**t. Peopel are people.

My advice is.. if you don't have any truck with art, then get the truck out and leave it to those that do. We don't turn up at your camera club and start trying to throw our weight around do we?




Sorry... but that's just a very narrow minded view, and one that limits the potential of photography. You speak as if words and image have no business interacting. Words and pictures together can be very powerful, more powerful than either alone could ever be. Do you deny this is possible?

Yes but this thread wasn't started about art,it was about camera craft,your the one who turn up trying to turn another thread into an argument about art again,i don't understand why your so obsessed with the word Art :confused:
 
no I agree that words and pictures can have a synergistic effect when they both have latent power , but if one is worthless without the other it might as well not exist as it brings nothing to the 'partnership'

So why not just read a book then instead of going to the movies? Why watch TV news when you can read a newspaper. Why do you not watch the TV with the volume on mute? Surely the best TV wouldn't need the words would it? Surely then silent movies are the pinnacle of movie making.
 
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Yes but this thread wasn't started about art,it was about camera craft,your the one who turn up trying to turn another thread into an argument about art again,i don't understand why your so obsessed with the word Art :confused:


It stopped being that on page 4. Welcome to the internet.
 
but that explanation doesn't add anything to the image - so why give it ?

Iike say with Nick Utt Napalm girl- you could write a treatise on the background of the vietnam conflict and the hows and the whys etc, but the image doesnt need any of that its speaks for itself.

Documentary is different anyway - where photos are staged (or heavily edited as with Rhine) to convey an artistic meaning in my view they should convey that meaning adequately without requiring explanation
 
but that explanation doesn't add anything to the image - so why give it ?

Because it was the truth Pete? LOL Isn't that what you're saying the image should do.. tell the story without words?

Iike say with Nick Utt Napalm girl- you could write a treatise on the background of the vietnam conflict and the hows and the whys etc, but the image doesnt need any of that its speaks for itself.

That alone doesn't mean it's better than one that does require words. It just makes it a different kind of image.

Documentary is different anyway - where photos are staged (or heavily edited as with Rhine) to convey an artistic meaning in my view they should convey that meaning adequately without requiring explanation

Why? Why would that make them "better"?

Whyjust heavily manipulated images? (head scratch)
 
Yes but this thread wasn't started about art,it was about camera craft,your the one who turn up trying to turn another thread into an argument about art again,i don't understand why your so obsessed with the word Art :confused:
But David wasn't the one to turn the discussion to 'artistic merit'. That was done by someone who has no interest in art. ;)

And there'd be no protracted discussion about art if people who 'have no interest in art' would just quit trolling.


Not taking sides... Just saying what I see.
 
but that explanation doesn't add anything to the image - so why give it ?
Are we talking about the pumpkin image? The photographer explained:

“Photography has always been capable of manipulation. Even more subtle and more invidious is the fact that any time you put a frame to the world, it’s an interpretation. I could get my camera and point it at two people and not point it at the homeless third person to the right of the frame, or not include the murder that’s going on to the left of the frame. You take 35 degrees out of 360 degrees and call it a photo. There’s an infinite number of ways you can do this: photographs have always been authored.”

So knowing the real story is important. Almost on a meta level. I think it makes a difference that the photographer was happy (and apparently amused) to let people draw the implied story from the photograph but, importantly, if actually asked about it he didn't try to perpetuate the manipulation. He basically says: "no, what you think you see is not what you're getting but isn't that interesting in itself?"
 
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You're making the assumption however that all artist statements make no sense, or are designed to beguile. What about the ones that just simply explain what's what. That arty b****x too?

This one is better though :)

http://www.artybollocks.com/

The fact is, I don't think you're actually read enough artist statements to actually know a good one from a bad one.

Explain insecurity.

It looks like they feel they are worried of being intellectually inadequate. As if they need to prove their intellect in this age of great scientific and technological discoveries with their own impenetrable jargon. From what I have gathered if an image, no matter how mundane, can be cloaked in some relevant theory (particularly left leaning social or environmental justice) and prefaced with some art-speak then welcome to the club.

I look at this:

https://www.1stdibs.com/art/photogr...northern-british-columbia-canada/id-a_307272/

And think if it said Lik in the top corner it isn't art, but because it is by Burtynsky and what agenda he embodies then because he was poking his Hasselblad out a Cessna it is art.
 
@big soft moose .. actually, Ut's image doesn't say all you think it does. It shows a naked girl running across a bridge/road/track?. How do you know she was napalmed Pete? Can you see any napalm? Some smoke in the back... no one else naked though... you can't actually see whether she is burned or not.. so how do you KNOW what it's about Pete? Be honest... you READ it didn't you? :)
 
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Whyjust heavily manipulated images? (head scratch)

because images that arent staged or heavilly editted (ie found images) could be said to be documentary in nature rather than those created to convey a message
 
because images that arent staged or heavilly editted (ie found images) could be said to be documentary in nature rather than those created to convey a message

Nonsense. So everything not staged or manipulated is documentary? Really? LOL
 
@big soft moose .. actually, Ut's image doesn't say all you think it does. It shows a naked girl running across a bridge. How do you know she was napalmed Pete? Can you see any napalm? Some smoke in the back... no one else naked though... you can't actually see whether she is burned or not.. so how do you KNOW what it's about Pete? Be honest... you READ it didn't you? :)

that's a fair point - but the message the photo conveys about the inhumanity of war and in particular of the way the US prosecuted that particular conflict is conveyed without needing to know that's shes been napalmed or what her injuries are ... you have a small child running in obvious distress from a scene of destruction , while US troops walk along ignoring her distress...
 
Nonsense. So everything not staged or manipulated is documentary? Really? LOL

anything thats found is essentially documenting whatever you found - it depends how you define documentary (and that's a whole other thread)
 
I love threads like this. Honestly. I know some find them tiresome but I always think they're genuinely thought provoking. I really want to take a course in the artistic side of photography, looking at photography from an intellectual rather than a technical perspective. I don't have the time though. I read a bit about critical appreciation of photography but I feel I'm stabbing in the dark a bit without formal direction.
 
that's a fair point - but the message the photo conveys about the inhumanity of war and in particular of the way the US prosecuted that particular conflict is conveyed without needing to know that's shes been napalmed or what her injuries are ... you have a small child running in obvious distress from a scene of destruction , while US troops walk along ignoring her distress...

But you'd still need to know A) it was Vietnam, and B) It was Napalm, and C) It was US fire. None of that you'd know without reading the report that accompanied the image. The idea of images needing no words is nice... but it's a myth Pete. You only know what that image is about because you read some words.
 
I love threads like this. Honestly. I know some find them tiresome but I always think they're genuinely thought provoking. I really want to take a course in the artistic side of photography, looking at photography from an intellectual rather than a technical perspective. I don't have the time though. I read a bit about critical appreciation of photography but I feel I'm stabbing in the dark a bit without formal direction.

Highly recommended. It will broaden your mind to what images actually do... or can do.. or should do. You don't need a course (at risk of talking myself out of a job)... you just need a library, some bibliographies and an internet connection... Oh... and back off from the amateur scene, Flickr, and camera clubs.
 
anything thats found is essentially documenting whatever you found - it depends how you define documentary (and that's a whole other thread)


Really? But how do you know WHAT you've found Pete?
 
It looks like they feel they are worried of being intellectually inadequate. As if they need to prove their intellect in this age of great scientific and technological discoveries with their own impenetrable jargon. From what I have gathered if an image, no matter how mundane, can be cloaked in some relevant theory (particularly left leaning social or environmental justice) and prefaced with some art-speak then welcome to the club.

I look at this:

https://www.1stdibs.com/art/photogr...northern-british-columbia-canada/id-a_307272/

And think if it said Lik in the top corner it isn't art, but because it is by Burtynsky and what agenda he embodies then because he was poking his Hasselblad out a Cessna it is art.


What exactly am I supposed to be looking at here, and how does it support your first (clumsy) sentence?

It wouldn't say Lik in the top corner, because Lik is s**t and couldn't produce work like that if you put a gun to his head.

Seriously... you need an optician.

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The only reason you are so enamoured of Lik is because he gives you hope :)
 
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And think if it said Lik in the top corner it isn't art, but because it is by Burtynsky and what agenda he embodies then because he was poking his Hasselblad out a Cessna it is art.
I actually don't know much about the image you've posted but I'll address your wider point which, it seems to me, is that some *named* artist has created work that you think is comparable artistically to someone who is not considered an artist.
The Beatles wrote some highly innovative, genre-defying, progressive pop music (true whether you like them or not). They also wrote some derivative - almost laughable - crap (yes, throughout their career, not just in the "I want to hold your hand" days). Yet nobody whose brain wasn't made of semolina would argue that because The Beatles produced some garbage they are therefore comparable to Toploader.
 
What exactly am I supposed to be looking at here, and how does it support your first (clumsy) sentence?

It wouldn't say Lik in the top corner, because Lik is s**t and couldn't produce work like that if you put a gun to his head.

Seriously... you need an optician.

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The only reason you are so enamoured of Lik is because he gives you hope :)

I see you are taken with Burtynsky to the point you are trying to ape him in subject matter and even couched your language in his political agenda. The promotion of these images, agendas and their acceptance by the establishment have obviously influenced you. I mean your images aren't the same standard as his obviously, but cool captures nonetheless.

I bet if Lik photoshopped in some toxic waste or an oil derrick, gave it some hokey tree-hugging narrative and sprinkled some some art b*****ks on top you'd slurp it up. You eat up slag heaps or a mundane diptych or heavily manipulated stretch of water because you are told that is what is to be eaten up. Just a sheep really.
 
I bet if Lik photoshopped in some toxic waste or an oil derrick, gave it some hokey tree-hugging narrative and sprinkled some some art b*****ks on top you'd slurp it up. You eat up slag heaps or a mundane diptych or heavily manipulated stretch of water because you are told that is what is to be eaten up. Just a sheep really.

Erm... even I can tell Burtynsky is producing work that is light years ahead of what Lik is doing, purely on a photographic level; art doesn't come into it (or doesn't need to rather..).
 
Erm... even I can tell Burtynsky is producing work that is light years ahead of what Lik is doing, purely on a photographic level; art doesn't come into it (or doesn't need to rather..).

What light year is this in?

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01693/Edward_Burtynsky_1693657i.jpg

The image doesn't seem to matter, it's the art b*****ks you can extract and spout about it that seems to be the art. Particularly if you have some environmental or political commentary that goes down well. The drowning in jargon language is so insecure it's almost palpable.
 
What light year is this in?

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01693/Edward_Burtynsky_1693657i.jpg

The image doesn't seem to matter, it's the art b*****ks you can extract and spout about it that seems to be the art. Particularly if you have some environmental or political commentary that goes down well. The drowning in jargon language is so insecure it's almost palpable.

A good few in front of this one:
http://i.imwx.com/web/tv/programs/peterlik/Porch_the_558.jpg

Probably best not to pick out individual examples though, it's easier to see the difference if you can look at a selection of their works:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...iw=1366&bih=643#safe=off&tbm=isch&q=peter+lik
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...iw=1366&bih=643#safe=off&tbm=isch&q=burtynsky

I know we all have different tastes and all, but at least one of these links doesn't make my eyes bleed!

The image doesn't seem to matter, it's the art b*****ks you can extract and spout about it that seems to be the art. Particularly if you have some environmental or political commentary that goes down well. The drowning in jargon language is so insecure it's almost palpable.
That's why I'm looking at it without bringing the art commentary into it. Burtynsky is the clear winner and there is no need to bring anything else into the equation in order to "slurp it up." The additional commentary may add more depth, but it certainly isn't needed, and I can't see any kind of "con" going on..
 
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A good few in front of this one:
http://i.imwx.com/web/tv/programs/peterlik/Porch_the_558.jpg

Probably best not to pick out individual examples though, it's easier to see the difference if you can look at a selection of their works:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...iw=1366&bih=643#safe=off&tbm=isch&q=peter+lik
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...iw=1366&bih=643#safe=off&tbm=isch&q=burtynsky

I know we all have different tastes and all, but at least one of these links doesn't make my eyes bleed!
The Lik link could be the front page of 500px. There's literally nothing there that isn't derivative, safe-market schlock.
Lik's got a good game going. He's the Dan Brown of photography. He's Radio 1. It's painting by numbers. Catering to the lower 75% of the bell curve. Good luck to him, he's a good businessman.

Go to 500px right now and tell me what, intellectually, creatively or artistically distinguishes Lik from any of the ever-changing images in their "popular" section.
 
A good few in front of this one:
http://i.imwx.com/web/tv/programs/peterlik/Porch_the_558.jpg

Probably best not to pick out individual examples though, it's easier to see the difference if you can look at a selection of their works:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...iw=1366&bih=643#safe=off&tbm=isch&q=peter+lik
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...iw=1366&bih=643#safe=off&tbm=isch&q=burtynsky

I know we all have different tastes and all, but at least one of these links doesn't make my eyes bleed!

That's why I'm looking at it without bringing the art commentary into it. Burtynsky is the clear winner and there is no need to bring anything else into the equation in order to "slurp it up." The additional commentary may add more depth, but it certainly isn't needed, and I can't see any kind of "con" going on..

The commentary around it seems to be the art. A pile of tyres or tailings or a slag heap would be Flickr fodder if Joe Bloggs took them. Create some narrative about 'oh aren't we wrecking the planet' or some other theoretical discourse and tie up with the right like minded people using the same flowery language and you're golden. It seems like such a stacked deck. On Lik I've said he has some nice landscapes and some mediocre images but I'd still say he's an artist.
 
The commentary around it seems to be the art. A pile of tyres or tailings or a slag heap would be Flickr fodder if Joe Bloggs took them. Create some narrative about 'oh aren't we wrecking the planet' or some other theoretical discourse and tie up with the right like minded people using the same flowery language and you're golden. It seems like such a stacked deck.
Completely disagree. His works stand up on their own (which was the point I was trying to make). Technically he is a great photographer.
On Lik I've said he has some nice landscapes and some mediocre images but I'd still say he's an artist.
Not in the conceptual sense. In the decorative sense I would concede, but in the decorative sense I would far rather have a smouldering slag heap on my wall. Maybe it does come down to taste...
 
But David wasn't the one to turn the discussion to 'artistic merit'. That was done by someone who has no interest in art. ;)

And there'd be no protracted discussion about art if people who 'have no interest in art' would just quit trolling.


Not taking sides... Just saying what I see.

Fair enough but i didn't come trolling, i made a comment on this tread on the 1st page about what the thread was started on,just came back to how it was going,about the subject of the thread :)
 
There a good book I bought recently, why your five year old could not have done that, explaining modern art. A very worthy £10 spent.
 
Fair enough but i didn't come trolling, i made a comment on this tread on the 1st page about what the thread was started on,just came back to how it was going,about the subject of the thread :)
I didn't accuse you of trolling;)

I thought I'd made it clear who I consider the trolls here.
 
I see you are taken with Burtynsky to the point you are trying to ape him in subject matter and even couched your language in his political agenda. The promotion of these images, agendas and their acceptance by the establishment have obviously influenced you. I mean your images aren't the same standard as his obviously, but cool captures nonetheless.

Nice try... but you're using the wrong tactics if you wish to annoy me. Your opinion of my work is worthless. You've already demonstrated your total inability to judge the worth of any work quite satisfactorily. I do not take you seriously. :) You're like a performing seal. It approximates intelligent behaviour, and that's why we find it amusing. You're kind of like that :) However, you can always have too much of a good thing.

I realise that having a worthy opinion relies on intellect, knowledge and study rather than actually being a photographer (Barthes, Sontag, Clarke et al), but YOU would clearly disagree with that as these are all intellectuals who are not photographers, and that would fly right into the teeth of your argument, so... your knowledge, opinions etc, must be because your such an experienced, talented and well respected photographer, right?

Post away... show us the way. We'd love to see the work of someone who single handedly dismisses the whole art world as charlatans. It must be seminal, ground-breaking stuff. I can't wait.

Oh... sorry... I've asked that of you before. You never do, do you? :)

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Out of curiosity... I've just looked at your post history. The word "troll" comes to mind. It's always a good idea to not feed trolls, so I'll be ignoring you in this thread from now on... unless that is, you start making some points that are worth reading, and are more than just posting a link to Burtinsky, followed by "if this was Lik you'd hate it because you are a [insert derogatory comment about artists here]"
 
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I love threads like this. Honestly. I know some find them tiresome but I always think they're genuinely thought provoking. I really want to take a course in the artistic side of photography, looking at photography from an intellectual rather than a technical perspective. I don't have the time though. I read a bit about critical appreciation of photography but I feel I'm stabbing in the dark a bit without formal direction.
You and me both, but I would much prefer it without some of the quite obvious and deliberate trolling.
 
Different people have different opinions on what constitutes art. If The Berne Convention used David's quite narrow definition then not many of our photographs would enjoy copyright protection as copyright only applies to artistic works.

I think we worry too much about what art is because the reality is, it doesn't really matter.


Steve.
 
Different people have different opinions on what constitutes art. If The Berne Convention used David's quite narrow definition then not many of our photographs would enjoy copyright protection as copyright only applies to artistic works.

I think we worry too much about what art is because the reality is, it doesn't really matter.


Steve.

By artistic works, it covers everything. Every photo purposely taken by an individual is protected by copyright unless taken in employment by others... and even then it might be if you have it writing. The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act makes no distinction as what constitutes art at all, and assumes that all work created is artistic creation. It has to, or every claim against it would erupt into a philosophical debate (which it still sometimes does... remember the Monkey Selfie?). I could take a screen grab from my webcam and it would be covered by the Act. How you define art philosophically has n bearing on the Act at all. The Act makes no attempt to define art, and what ACTUALLY constitutes art how WE measure it, is irrelevant. It's ALL protected... even Peter Lik :)
 
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I really liked Burtnsky Landscape of Oil when I saw it at the photographers gallery.
Seen large these are stunning pieces and really work as a series. Pulling out an individual piece for criticism isn't fair, the work has to be seen as a set.

Here's his Ted talk on the images, thoughts
https://www.ted.com/talks/edward_burtynsky_photographs_the_landscape_of_oil

And a good review/display of the series
http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2012/may/11/dark-art-oil-pictures-edward-burtynsky
 
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But you'd still need to know A) it was Vietnam, and B) It was Napalm, and C) It was US fire. None of that you'd know without reading the report that accompanied the image. The idea of images needing no words is nice... but it's a myth Pete. You only know what that image is about because you read some words.

nope the image would have the same impact if it was korea and the destruction was caused by shellfire - you can see that its US troops because they are pictured... this is my point the picture is powerful in its own right without needing the context explained
 
i'm still waiting for the "explanation" that acompanies the shot David posted - it will be interesting to see if the words add any power or impact to the picture
 
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