Whatever happened to Camera-craft?

So, after 433 posts, a test.... Art or Record? (After all it is MY thread that has been derailed) ;)

A Burtynsky or a Lik?


Documentary record, from your visit to the area.
Of course, depending on the body of work it's presented in, it may take on another meaning.
 
So, after 433 posts, a test.... Art or Record? (After all it is MY thread that has been derailed) ;)

A Burtynsky or a Lik?

So, after 433 posts, you post a pic with no words explaining why you took it and what it means to you whatsoever and ask is it art or record? Did you read the posts above about the war photographs and words and interpretation? I think it's record anyway, a good shot and a good photo but a record of someone else's art? I like the mirrors too!
 
Had to go to find the link
http://www.nga.gov/feature/atget/works_art.shtm

Atget recorded images of Paris, tried to record all the architecture and streets of Paris. He also photographed the traders, the prostitutes. So on it's own it's hard to define as anything other than a record (like picking out a single burtynsky) the body of work can define so much more.

I like the image, the colour grabs the attention, there's uniformity with the windows then random mirrors and images, keeping your eye diverting around the image. I think the composition/framing helps with this.
 
So, after 433 posts, you post a pic with no words explaining why you took it and what it means to you whatsoever and ask is it art or record? Did you read the posts above about the war photographs and words and interpretation? I think it's record anyway, a good shot and a good photo but a record of someone else's art? I like the mirrors too!

Yes, is that a problem? There were a few statements in the middle of this ever expanding list that suggested that some art could be contextualised by, and within, itself. Just wanted to test the theory!

(i've read pretty much all of this as a matter of fact.... I feel some sort paternal affinity with it ;) )
 
This Gursky sold for $181,000 (estimate was $350,000 to $450,000):

http://www.spruethmagers.com/bilder/works/gursky_00162.jpg

Description: “Niagara Falls” (1989) captures a boat, endlessly drifting towards the disastrous precipice of water, tourists happily adrift in a vast expanse of nature.

Burtynsky said:

I also gave myself another challenge, which is something I grew up next door to: I've been trying to figure out, is there any way I can photograph Niagara Falls without making it a cliché? And I haven't done it yet. Andreas Gursky shot the Maid of the Mist and it was very postcard-y -- but I think he meant it to refer to the postcard tradition.

All of my work now shall now be known as referring to the postcard tradition.
 
This Gursky sold for $181,000 (estimate was $350,000 to $450,000):

http://www.spruethmagers.com/bilder/works/gursky_00162.jpg

Description: “Niagara Falls” (1989) captures a boat, endlessly drifting towards the disastrous precipice of water, tourists happily adrift in a vast expanse of nature.

All of my work now shall now be known as referring to the postcard tradition.

But if you have travelled and know about the Maid of the Mist tourist boat rides, thats exactly what they do, take the boats very close to the waterfall and into the mist.
http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g154998-i1634740-Niagara_Falls_Ontario.html

What's your issue with this?


The full interview said:
Twilley: I want to end with a question about where the water project is going next, and, in particular, whether there’s any aspect of water that is proving particularly tricky to capture or perhaps more productive than you originally expected?

Burtynsky: Probably the trickiest bit right now is source: where water comes from. It’s so riddled with clichés. That’s actually where I might end up using film, because it might be able to carry the cliché better than still photographs.

I also gave myself another challenge, which is something I grew up next door to: I’ve been trying to figure out, is there any way I can photograph Niagara Falls without making it a cliché? And I haven’t done it yet. Andreas Gursky shot the Maid of the Mist and it was very postcard-y—but I think he meant it to refer to the postcard tradition. I’m working on it, and I’m trying to figure it out, but it’s hard. I keep looking at Niagara Falls, thinking, “Great. Now what?”


So he was actually commenting on photographing the falls and fitting it into his style, his water project. As he's known for enviromental style images, how do you think a tourist boat into the mist would fit that sort or portfolio?
http://www.edwardburtynsky.com/site_contents/Photographs/Water.html

Description and images look very good.
 
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Oh and I'm still waiting on the link to the curators piece you mentioned
I was reading a piece by a curator in San Francisco who said they were inundated with people doing what you're doing. Copying Gursky, Burtnysky, (Sherman and Barbara Cole too) and their narrative. It seemed he was hoping to see a rock, a tree or a milky stream just to break the sheer monotony,
 
Some truly awesome photographs in "Water". Thanks for posting the link. The feature film I mentioned is "Watermarks" . (It's available on Lovefilm.).

Presumably mostly taken from a helicopter, though. Coming from a photographer with an environmental message - does the end justify the means?
 
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But if you have travelled and know about the Maid of the Mist tourist boat rides, thats exactly what they do, take the boats very close to the waterfall and into the mist.
http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g154998-i1634740-Niagara_Falls_Ontario.html

What's your issue with this?


The full interview said:
Twilley: I want to end with a question about where the water project is going next, and, in particular, whether there’s any aspect of water that is proving particularly tricky to capture or perhaps more productive than you originally expected?

Burtynsky: Probably the trickiest bit right now is source: where water comes from. It’s so riddled with clichés. That’s actually where I might end up using film, because it might be able to carry the cliché better than still photographs.

I also gave myself another challenge, which is something I grew up next door to: I’ve been trying to figure out, is there any way I can photograph Niagara Falls without making it a cliché? And I haven’t done it yet. Andreas Gursky shot the Maid of the Mist and it was very postcard-y—but I think he meant it to refer to the postcard tradition. I’m working on it, and I’m trying to figure it out, but it’s hard. I keep looking at Niagara Falls, thinking, “Great. Now what?”


So he was actually commenting on photographing the falls and fitting it into his style, his water project. As he's known for enviromental style images, how do you think a tourist boat into the mist would fit that sort or portfolio?
http://www.edwardburtynsky.com/site_contents/Photographs/Water.html

Description and images look very good.

Yeah thanks Captain Obvious but the tourist boat at Niagara Falls wasn't the point. The point was here was a 'postcard-y' shot that sold for big money that supposedly wasn't really a postcard but 'referring to the post card tradition' and therefore is art. Why not say, 'Peter Lik isn't doing postcard work he's referring to the postcard tradition'. I mean with spin like that you can window dress anything.
 
'Peter Lik isn't doing postcard work he's referring to the postcard tradition'. I mean with spin like that you can window dress anything.
From what I've read, his gallery staff do enough "window dressing" of his work already...
 
Oh and I'm still waiting on the link to the curators piece you mentioned
I was reading a piece by a curator in San Francisco who said they were inundated with people doing what you're doing. Copying Gursky, Burtnysky, (Sherman and Barbara Cole too) and their narrative. It seemed he was hoping to see a rock, a tree or a milky stream just to break the sheer monotony,

It was some guy writing on apug or a big film forum in 2012 as a curator of an auction in San Francisco or Toronto I forget which one. Again you miss the point entirely as the point was these type of images and agendas are held in great esteem by the establishment and that means other artists are copying their style and political agendas to be accepted and he was saying how many of these images he saw. I don't think Pookeyhead can be too environmentally conscious tearing around in a Mustang GT that must get about 20mpg. It's a bit like George Osborne telling us we are all in it together.
 
It was some guy writing on apug or a big film forum in 2012 as a curator of an auction in San Francisco or Toronto I forget which one. Again you miss the point entirely as the point was these type of images and agendas are held in great esteem by the establishment and that means other artists are copying their style and political agendas to be accepted and he was saying how many of these images he saw. I don't think Pookeyhead can be too environmentally conscious tearing around in a Mustang GT that must get about 20mpg. It's a bit like George Osborne telling us we are all in it together.

No the point is you may have read something that you can't provide a reference for to support your point of view.
At least provide the reference for others to read, not your perhaps biased summary.
 
From what I've read, his gallery staff do enough "window dressing" of his work already...

People like that sort of work on their walls, fair enough. I'd sell all those pictures too if I could take them and print them to that size and quality. Not many people want depressing slag heaps that only supposedly make sense if you ram some political agenda down their throat or show them a long series. Even Burtynsky tried to give a picture to the men at the quarry and they said why would we want that? All it did was remind them there was no more stone left and they would have to move on. It depressed them, they didn't want to look at it.
 
Yeah thanks Captain Obvious but the tourist boat at Niagara Falls wasn't the point. The point was here was a 'postcard-y' shot that sold for big money that supposedly wasn't really a postcard but 'referring to the post card tradition' and therefore is art. Why not say, 'Peter Lik isn't doing postcard work he's referring to the postcard tradition'. I mean with spin like that you can window dress anything.

So hang on - what's your big issue.
That some things are classed as art and are then sold for large sums of money (possibly)?

Objects have always attracted some value. Why do we say Gold is worth so much over other metals, why are consultants paid so much money. Thats the way it is in a capitalist society that things have value and people are prepared to pay that amount to own that object, have that service etc.
 
People like that sort of work on their walls, fair enough. I'd sell all those pictures too if I could take them and print them to that size and quality. Not many people want depressing slag heaps that only supposedly make sense if you ram some political agenda down their throat or show them a long series. Even Burtynsky tried to give a picture to the men at the quarry and they said why would we want that? All it did was remind them there was no more stone left and they would have to move on. It depressed them, they didn't want to look at it.

So they didn't value his work. More fool them perhaps?

Ah from the same interview you quoted earlier:


I actually have a funny story about this. After spending about six years and two shows on the Rock of Ages quarries in Vermont, I wanted to do a trade with them: a print for some granite slabs to make countertops in my country house up North. I met with them and I brought ten of my favorite pictures of their quarries. Most of them were of abandoned sections of the quarries. So I rolled them all out—and they were big, 40-by-50-inch prints—and the whole board was there. And they were totally silent.

After this uncomfortable, pregnant pause, I said, “So… what do you guys think?” Someone—I think it was the director of the quarry—finally said, “Why would anybody want one of these?” [laughter]

I’d never really had it put to me in that way! I said something like, “Well, because they’re interesting pictures and they talk about our taking of a resource from the land. It’s about that accumulated taking—the residual evidence of that taking—and then nature bouncing back into that void. You can see it struggling back into that space.”

And he replied, “These just aren’t very interesting for us.” Well, actually, he said, “These are a sorry sight for us, because these are places where we can’t get any more stone out of the ground, and we have to go somewhere else. They’re the end of the line for us. We wouldn’t want to have to be reminded of that everyday.”

I asked whether that meant the deal was off, and they said, “Oh, no, you can go photograph the latest thing we’ve found with all the machines still working on it.” And I did. It never entered my oeuvre, but I photographed it and I got the countertops.




I work sometimes for a client that does quarrying. They have large images all over the place of their work in progress, usually on a blue sky day, big clean yellow trucks.
 
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All it did was remind them there was no more stone left and they would have to move on. It depressed them, they didn't want to look at it.

But doesnt that kind of cement what has already been said in this thread numerous times? The work has created a reaction/emotion, made the viewer really think about the issue the artist is dealing with, which makes it a success surely? Just because it may not be a decorative piece that 99% of people want on their walls, it doesnt mean that its worth as an artistic project is diminished at all.

**ETA** In my opinion of course.
 
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...the point was these type of images and agendas are held in great esteem by the establishment and that means other artists are copying their style and political agendas to be accepted and he was saying how many of these images he saw.

What do you expect? Someone has a good idea, it sells, others copy it. It goes on in all fields of art and industry.
 
So they didn't value his work. More fool them perhaps?

Ah from the same interview you quoted earlier:


I actually have a funny story about this. After spending about six years and two shows on the Rock of Ages quarries in Vermont, I wanted to do a trade with them: a print for some granite slabs to make countertops in my country house up North. I met with them and I brought ten of my favorite pictures of their quarries. Most of them were of abandoned sections of the quarries. So I rolled them all out—and they were big, 40-by-50-inch prints—and the whole board was there. And they were totally silent.

After this uncomfortable, pregnant pause, I said, “So… what do you guys think?” Someone—I think it was the director of the quarry—finally said, “Why would anybody want one of these?” [laughter]

I’d never really had it put to me in that way! I said something like, “Well, because they’re interesting pictures and they talk about our taking of a resource from the land. It’s about that accumulated taking—the residual evidence of that taking—and then nature bouncing back into that void. You can see it struggling back into that space.”

And he replied, “These just aren’t very interesting for us.” Well, actually, he said, “These are a sorry sight for us, because these are places where we can’t get any more stone out of the ground, and we have to go somewhere else. They’re the end of the line for us. We wouldn’t want to have to be reminded of that everyday.”

I asked whether that meant the deal was off, and they said, “Oh, no, you can go photograph the latest thing we’ve found with all the machines still working on it.” And I did. It never entered my oeuvre, but I photographed it and I got the countertops.




I work sometimes for a client that does quarrying. They have large images all over the place of their work in progress, usually on a blue sky day, big clean yellow trucks.

The most pertinent point is he's never had it put it to him that way. No wonder if he is immersed in this world of chin stroking art b*****ks sycophants and their current political agenda. Quarrymen looked at it, a Burtynsky, and said 'no thanks' but you think oh what fools. A curator or collector would have been foaming at the mouth too no doubt. It's a nice story to illustrate how these images are perceived when you strip away the pretension.
 
So, in a nutshell, some think it's all pretentious b*****ks, some think some of it is pretentious b*****ks and some think none of it is pretentious b*****ks.

Few, if any, are likely to change their stance.

What on earth is the point of arguing about it?
 
So, in a nutshell, some think it's all pretentious b*****ks, some think some of it is pretentious b*****ks and some think none of it is pretentious b*****ks.

Few, if any, are likely to change their stance.

What on earth is the point of arguing about it?

Welcome to the internet.
 
Aah, gotcha.

So I'm free to use this forum to insult, demean and ridicule any genre of photography I choose.

How liberating.

Well, it's never stopped anybody else!
 
So, in a nutshell, some think it's all pretentious b*****ks, some think some of it is pretentious b*****ks and some think none of it is pretentious b*****ks.

Few, if any, are likely to change their stance.

What on earth is the point of arguing about it?
Don't think I've seen anyone saying NONE of it is pretentious b*****ks.
 
So, in a nutshell, some think it's all pretentious b*****ks, some think some of it is pretentious b*****ks and some think none of it is pretentious b*****ks.

Few, if any, are likely to change their stance.

What on earth is the point of arguing about it?


duty_calls.png
 
The most pertinent point is he's never had it put it to him that way. No wonder if he is immersed in this world of chin stroking art b*****ks sycophants and their current political agenda. Quarrymen looked at it, a Burtynsky, and said 'no thanks' but you think oh what fools. A curator or collector would have been foaming at the mouth too no doubt. It's a nice story to illustrate how these images are perceived when you strip away the pretension.

But as I said to you, I know of quarry people with similar works all over their offices.

So it's a nice story how some, like yourself, thinks some images or art is pretentious. Perhaps being businessmen they didn't want to be reminded of the damage because of poor PR, but instead wanted images of the result after the land was relandscaped.

That's the point - art is subjective. It's not that, as you put it, he's in a world of sycophants, it's just that as with everything, some like certain things and some dont.
 
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Some truly awesome photographs in "Water". Thanks for posting the link. The feature film I mentioned is "Watermarks" . (It's available on Lovefilm.).

Presumably mostly taken from a helicopter, though. Coming from a photographer with an environmental message - does the end justify the means?

I was looking at some of David Maisel's aerial photography who explores the same sort of themes and shoots from a Cessna(?). I've seen Burtynsky use a helicopter, fixed wing plane and a $50k Hasselblad on what looks like an expensive radio controlled helicopter. Not got any beef with his environmental credentials there as he can't really get the shot any other way.
 
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So, in a nutshell, some think it's all pretentious b*****ks, some think some of it is pretentious b*****ks and some think none of it is pretentious b*****ks.

Few, if any, are likely to change their stance.

What on earth is the point of arguing about it?

who's arguing? There's a discussion going on, in which, some interesting pieces of work have been introduced, discussed, of which some may not have been aware of before. I call that a win and actually interesting.
 
I was looking at some of David Maisel's aerial photography who does explores the same sort of themes and shoots from a Cessna(?). I've seen Burtynsky use a helicopter, fixed wing plane and a $50k Hasselblad on what looks like an expensive radio controlled helicopter. Not got any beef with his environmental credentials there as he can't really get the shot any other way.

So what do you see as the difference between Burtynsky's work and say Maisel's Black Maps?
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...d-maisels-aerial-photographs-43093531/?no-ist

How about compared to Mishka Henna Oilfields and feedlots?

And you've seen Burtynsky work? Nice.
 
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But as I said to you, I know of quarry people with similar works all over their offices.
So it's a nice story how some, like yourself, thinks some images or art is pretentious. Perhaps being businessmen they didn't want to be reminded of the damage because of poor PR, but instead wanted images of the result after the land was relandscaped.

The pretension was shot down:

Burtynsky: I'd never really had it put to me in that way! I said something like, "Well, because they're interesting pictures and they talk about our taking of a resource from the land. It's about that accumulated taking -- the residual evidence of that taking -- and then nature bouncing back into that void. You can see it struggling back into that space."

Man in quarry: "These just aren't very interesting for us." Well, actually, he said, "These are a sorry sight for us, because these are places where we can't get any more stone out of the ground, and we have to go somewhere else. They're the end of the line for us. We wouldn't want to have to be reminded of that everyday."

Now if Burtynsky had said what he said to a curator or collector they would have eaten that up with a spoon. The man on the street? Not interested. The big shiny trucks and blue skies and heroic images you describe are what a lot of people seem to like and buy and hang on their wall. The steam train blasting round the snowy bend people will buy and hang. The railcut Burtynsky series? I'm not sure:

http://www.edwardburtynsky.com/site_contents/Photographs/Railcuts.html

Technically great, taken on amazing equipment and printed expertly no doubt about it, but like the man in quarry, not interesting for me. I had a look at the Canadian Pacific Railway historical photos and liked them a lot more. Probably a heretical statement in the art establishment but again, not interested in having their narrative forced down my throat.
 
The pretension was shot down:

In your view, but then you see things you label things you don't understand as pretentious. The thing is with Burtynsky is actually I don't find his ideas, descriptions of his work pretentious at all. He has a clear, environmental message he tries to put across.

Again, what's different to that than other artists work like Maisel, Henna?

You constantly miss the point about these images, artists you label as pretentious because you don't like or don't understand, or are jealous of the money some sell for.

It's fine you don't like them - art is subjective. It's also ok to discuss if you don't understand or don't like, but explain why, lets have a proper discussion about it, but the continuous 'pretentious crap' comments that you role out, the "I read this that supports my arguments but can't share as I've forgotten where", is getting wearing.

We get it - you like pretty pictures only, not thoughtful ones. That's ok too, but it's a whole genre of photography thats not easily dismissable.
 
So what do you see as the difference between Burtynsky's work and say Maisel's Black Maps?
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...d-maisels-aerial-photographs-43093531/?no-ist

How about compared to Mishka Henna Oilfields and feedlots?

And you've seen Burtynsky work? Nice.

From the article you posted:

Each one is like a Rorschach test, in that the subject is, to some extent, what viewers make it to be. Blood vessels. Polished marble. Stained-glass windows. What is it that you see?

From the Burtynsky interview:

I see the work as being a bit like a Rorschach test.

I wonder how many times that cliche is used?
 
From the article you posted:



From the Burtynsky interview:



I wonder how many times that cliche is used?
But so what? Cliche'd or not, who cares if it is. So they both referred to the same test and that makes it cliche'd? Come on....really? You ignore overall salient points, run off, grab a quote from an online article/interview/whatever and treat it as making your point. One swallow doesnt make a summer. Doubtless you'll find millions of articles decrying any art, photographic or not. Plenty about music, films, paintings etc etc. You have to see that its down to taste, personality, mindset, upbringing, life events and anything else that effects each individual's thoughts and feelings. I have plenty of albums I love that are critically hated for whatever reason, doesn't make me like them any the less.

We get it, really we do, you don't like artistic photographs and its all pretentious b*****ks to you. Fair enough. Enjoy whatever you want to but to come on and say that anything you don't like is pretentious b*****ks and a con is just arrogant and ignorant, especially when its been clearly pointed out to you why others enjoy it.

Art has its good and bad, its con merchants, its criminal element, frauds, cheats and charlatans just like any other industry. It doesn't make the whole art world any less worthy. Does one fraudulent shop owner mean all shop owners are fraudulent? It also has its own 'community' just like any other industry. Of course some artists are going to effect the fashion and trends within their genre, it happens across the board in all walks of life. Why is 'art' any different?

You've even suggested Burtynsky's cause is weakened because he must be damaging the environment while creating his work. Its so childish its unreal.
 
We can all be real artists. That artyb*ll*cks generator site also has a section for making your own artist's certificate.

art.jpg



Steve.
 
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