No Nikon DL range

redhed17 said:
I don't think Nikon listen to their customers much, which is part of their problems imho. Cameras and lenses people want that don't appear, and cameras and lenses appearing which few seem to have been asking for. When they have had problems with cameras, which they have had a number of over the last few years, they ignore the problems until sheer weight of numbers forces them to do something. Hardly endearing them to their customers. :rolleyes: Having so many problems hints at cost cutting on the design and/or quality control side, and using users as testers. Again, not treating users well.

The delay of these DL cameras for so long, with little information, and then to be cancelled seems a bit disrespectful to their users, and potential users. Other manufacturers may be doing similar things, but I'm a Nikon user and mainly concern myself with what happens with them.

I do see other manufacturers adding features through firmware updates, which kind of gives the impression that they 'care' about their customers. :(
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I don't think it's a case of being disrespectful, they clearly had unforeseeable issues which have then transpired into not being feesible to pursue. You can't expect a company to continue with something that is not viable.
 
snerkler said:
I don't think it's a case of being disrespectful, they clearly had unforeseeable issues which have then transpired into not being feesible to pursue. You can't expect a company to continue with something that is not viable.
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I understand that as a reason for not going ahead, but announcing cameras, then saying they will be delayed and then... :thinking: for a long time nothing. And then cancellation. :rolleyes:
 
redhed17 said:
I understand that as a reason for not going ahead, but announcing cameras, then saying they will be delayed and then... :thinking: for a long time nothing. And then cancellation. :rolleyes:
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On the plus side at least none exploded :)

(Sorry that probably wasn't as funny as I thought it was)

Personally I think what Nikon do now is what's important. What is launched in the next 6-12 months. If this is rock bottom for Nikon then they are still in a strong position, if there is more bad news to come then if could be the beginning of the end.

As (I think it was) Tony Northrop commented and I'm paraphrasing, Nikon have to stop acting like IBM and thinking they are too big to fail...
 
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Nikon should consider cutting down their lines to around 4 bodies, and max ouch each of their bodies in terms of tech and abilities. Kind of like Sony has done with their A7 series, 3 bodies each built for a different purpose.

As mentioned above, Marketing is key.
 
Fuguru said:
Nikon should consider cutting down their lines to around 4 bodies, and max ouch each of their bodies in terms of tech and abilities. Kind of like Sony has done with their A7 series, 3 bodies each built for a different purpose.

As mentioned above, Marketing is key.
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I wouldn't necessarily say 4 bodies ... but something like

Consumer / enthusiasts range
D4x00 - entry level DX body
D7x00 - high end consumer DX body (better AF, better frame rate)
D8x00 (or maybe D6x0) - FX body - pretty much the current D750 as an all round FX body.​

Enthusiasts / semi pro
D7x0 - 20 MP (or so) high dynamic range, high ISO capability reasonable frame rate
D8x0 - 42 MP+ high resolution
D5x0 - "pro" DX body especially for sports / wildlife
​
Pro line
D5​

As you say marketing is the key ... in the current range its hard to say "if you want x, then the body you want is y". There needs to be more to differentiate between (for example) the D610 and the D750. As for design / control, the cameras in a range should have similar controls so that you can switch easily from one to the other. Functions like tilting screen (if not fully articulated) should be standard; SnapBridge needs to work properly and contrary to what some observers may say could be of use to both pros and consumers - ideally the WiFi hardware needs to work both with SnapBridge as well as being open to 3rd party access which could work for wireless weathering to laptops too.

Nikon hardware (at least DSLRs and Lenses) is fine ... MARKETING and CUSTOMER SERVICES is where the company is failing.
 
Eloise said:
I wouldn't necessarily say 4 bodies ... but something like

Consumer / enthusiasts range
D4x00 - entry level DX body
D7x00 - high end consumer DX body (better AF, better frame rate)
D8x00 (or maybe D6x0) - FX body - pretty much the current D750 as an all round FX body.​

Enthusiasts / semi pro
D7x0 - 20 MP (or so) high dynamic range, high ISO capability reasonable frame rate
D8x0 - 42 MP+ high resolution
D5x0 - "pro" DX body especially for sports / wildlife
​
Pro line
D5​
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I would say that looks OK to me, though with some of the features of the D5*** going down to the base DX model to make it more attractive than the Canon base models.

I think a lot of the confusion began when they started putting the same sensor in multiple models. And putting them in the cheapest camera first. :rolleyes: Put new features in the higher models and trickled down. :rolleyes: I know using the same sensor in multiple bodies saves money btw, but it makes it a whole lot harder to differentiate the models in the range to potential users when the marketing is so poor.

I'm not interested in mirrorless, but there needs to be a proper mirrorless option now that Canon are starting to get a bit more serious, but do they have the capacity and will to do this? :thinking: Some of Nikon 1 cameras apparently have amazing AF, why is that tech not put into the DSLRs and into a mirrorless camera with a larger sensor? And talking of the Nikon 1 range, is that dead or what! Again, not keeping users informed. I know the likes of Fuji, Olympus, Sony etc have to give their plans out in advance for what they are going to release to instil confidence into buying into a new system, but Nikon go to the other extreme and say nothing.

You buy into Sony at your peril though the way the have chopped and changed over the last 10 years. ;) :rolleyes:​

Eloise said:
As you say marketing is the key ... in the current range its hard to say "if you want x, then the body you want is y". There needs to be more to differentiate between (for example) the D610 and the D750. As for design / control, the cameras in a range should have similar controls so that you can switch easily from one to the other. Functions like tilting screen (if not fully articulated) should be standard; SnapBridge needs to work properly and contrary to what some observers may say could be of use to both pros and consumers - ideally the WiFi hardware needs to work both with SnapBridge as well as being open to 3rd party access which could work for wireless weathering to laptops too.
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;)

If you want confusion in specs then look at these two. :rolleyes:

If they are going to persevere with SnapBridge then it needs to be fit for purpose and on every model. I only want SnapBridge for the GPS tagging, and it can't even do that consistently, and doesn't update often enough. There should be an option to initiate a GPS update from the camera and you can sometimes walk a fair distance in the 5, 10, 15 mins or whatever it is it updates the location. That is if it stayed connected of course. I don't need the image transfer, but obviously it is the major feature for the program in the first place. I would occasionally use taking control of the camera for the odd occasion I didn't have my remote's with me, but atm it just crashes the program. :rolleyes: :mad:

Eloise said:
Nikon hardware (at least DSLRs and Lenses) is fine ... MARKETING and CUSTOMER SERVICES is where the company is failing.
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Bringing new cameras out and removing features that were in the previous model is madness and penny pinching at its worst imho. :mad: No sensor cleaning in a DSLR in 2017 scandalous, especially in the base model where people may be less careful in changing lenses, if they change lenses of course. ;) But even if they don't change lenses, I have seen many beginners taking off the lens and putting the body cap on when they put the cameras in their bags. Just asking for dust to enter the body sooner rather than later.
 
redhed17 said:
I think a lot of the confusion began when they started putting the same sensor in multiple models. And putting them in the cheapest camera first. :rolleyes: Put new features in the higher models and trickled down. :rolleyes: I know using the same sensor in multiple bodies saves money btw, but it makes it a whole lot harder to differentiate the models in the range to potential users when the marketing is so poor.
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I don't think having the same sensor in multiple bodies is an issue per se - it was what attracted me to the D3200 in the first place over the Canon offering - whats more strange to me is having (for example) a articulated display on the D5x00 but then the D7200 is fixed.

I'm not interested in mirrorless, but there needs to be a proper mirrorless option now that Canon are starting to get a bit more serious, but do they have the capacity and will to do this? :thinking: Some of Nikon 1 cameras apparently have amazing AF, why is that tech not put into the DSLRs and into a mirrorless camera with a larger sensor? And talking of the Nikon 1 range, is that dead or what! Again, not keeping users informed.
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Like you I have no interest in mirrorless at least not at a full frame level. If I was able to (funds allowing) I would consider a Fuji X or m43 as a secondary system but full frame mirrorless offers me personally nothing especially as *I* find OVF superior to EVF. But if you look at the features that are drawing some of the vocal Vloggers to Sony, its not the fact that they are mirrorless per se (if you ignore the EVF which is a personal like / dislike) most of the functionality lauded about Sony cameras could be replicated on a DSLR. Yes there is a slight weight disadvantage to the DSLR. It could be interesting if there was the possibility of a hybrid viewfinder in a DSLR which could combine the best of both worlds - OVF while the mirror was in place with a EVF showing when it was lifted. It could offer many of the EVF advantages, keeping the advantaged of OVF while also meaning that all F mount glass remained compatible.

The Nikon 1 range could be interesting. If they could use any of the lens technology they developed for the DL into making a better (more versatile) Nikon 1 the DL might be forgotten. Instead of a 18-50 DL and a 24-85 DL; market some Nikon 1 kits - if they could make them cheap enough ... just a thought Nikon? Could it be marketed effectively to both consumers and enthusiasts who want a second camera - the latter group would be wanting a series of prime lenses though. Is 1" sensor just too small though?
​
You buy into Sony at your peril though the way the have chopped and changed over the last 10 years. ;) :rolleyes:
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I think Nikon are scare of changing even when they should. They gave Canon so much stick when they introduced the EOS cameras which weren't compatible with their FD lenses they daren't now introduce a new camera system. In hindsight Nikon's battle for market share with Canon was lost then.

If they are going to persevere with SnapBridge then it needs to be fit for purpose and on every model. I only want SnapBridge for the GPS tagging, and it can't even do that consistently, and doesn't update often enough. There should be an option to initiate a GPS update from the camera and you can sometimes walk a fair distance in the 5, 10, 15 mins or whatever it is it updates the location. That is if it stayed connected of course. I don't need the image transfer, but obviously it is the major feature for the program in the first place. I would occasionally use taking control of the camera for the odd occasion I didn't have my remote's with me, but atm it just crashes the program. :rolleyes: :mad:
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I don't have SnapBridge but I know where you are coming from. Potentially WiFi and BT offer so much ... but only if the software side works. Given (how I understand) how SnapBridge works; there is no excuse for GPS now working accurately ... your phone can easily keep a continual track of your position without too much battery drain (I can walk for 8+ hours with fitness tracker and still have 60%+ battery) ... so why not at every shot ask the phone for a GPS location? I'm sure Nikon would do well though if they opened the API up. Create their own SnapBridge app, but also allow (if they were willing to) Adobe to create their own Lightroom Mobile with WiFi tethering and others of course.
 
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Nikon is not going anywhere and looking at the longer term there's actually a lot of good news in the recent announcements. The market has changed, Nikon needs to restructure (they've shed 1,100 employess, but still 20,000-plus left!) and is reverting closer to its enthusiast roots. Nikon's core DSLR and lens range has never been stronger - D5, D500, D810, D750, D7200 are probably best in class.

Thom Hogan has been mentioned as perhaps the best commentator and it's worth repeating this link to his well informed analysis http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-nikon-q3-financials.html

Tony Northrup has also made a good video

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uyJVCHDlzU
 
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Eloise said:
I think Nikon are scare of changing even when they should. They gave Canon so much stick when they introduced the EOS cameras which weren't compatible with their FD lenses they daren't now introduce a new camera system. In hindsight Nikon's battle for market share with Canon was lost then.
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I don't think this is the case at all. I had a connection with a camera retailer with a couple of outlets back when Canon announced the 'death' of their FD, Breech lock mount.... the pandemonium was incredible.... only the die-hards stayed with Canon. I still meet togs who moan about this today.

On the other hand I have a number of really good lenses I can still use today on a modern Nikon body.... the disparity in ages being around 45+ years! The Nikon lens range holds its own and sometimes betters that of Canon so hardly a major drawback in not changing or redesigning. That's only my opinion of course.

If they couldn't use the same mount then they would've changed it surely? Or are they hamstringing themselves by hanging on to the original bayonet 'F' mount? Do they need to make the 'throat' larger for faster lenses? They haven't for decades so why now? The only 'drawback' as I see it is a mechanical linkage to control the diaphragm from each body as opposed to a electro-mechanical device in every lens!
 
Eloise said:
I think Nikon are scare of changing even when they should. They gave Canon so much stick when they introduced the EOS cameras which weren't compatible with their FD lenses they daren't now introduce a new camera system. In hindsight Nikon's battle for market share with Canon was lost then.
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Yep, Canon's decision to ditch the FD system so they could develop a superior AF system in the EOS cameras is where the market changed I believe.
 
I don't know why they are not getting a bigger market share. Is it the marketing or are there just more people who think Canon are better?

As mentioned, Nikon have more best in class cameras, so why is that not turning in to sales?

Then again... To sell you need to have stock and the D750 stock levels have been seriously bad since the earthquakes, are D500 supplies as bad?
 
snerkler said:
Yep, Canon's decision to ditch the FD system so they could develop a superior AF system in the EOS cameras is where the market changed I believe.
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Thats pretty much what I was meaning ... In terms of AF system I would say that Nikon is now up there with Canon, but it took a long time for them to catch up (Canon were IMO vastly superior in AF vs EOS1 until the F5 came along) as they were having to adapt things to fit their existing system rather than Canon who started with a blank sheet as it were.

Sports photographers especially quickly took to Canon's AF system, so they invested in lenses, etc which were kept as bodies were upgraded; even if the D5 and D500 are now superior to the 1DX MkII and 7DMkII photographers remain invested in the EF lenses.

As for marketing ... Nikon (appear) afraid to take on their competition in their marketing. As @JJ! comments, Nikon are often best in class (in DSLR), yet its Canon who are making the sales. Yes its only one site ... but dpReview's 2016 recommendations is split into 6 categories each with 2 recommendations: Canon get 0 recommendations; Nikon 4; Sony 4; Pentax 1 and Fuji 2 (Panasonic got 1 recommendation for video biased use in one category). Included in those recommendations was the D750 recommended over the new 5D MkIV and the D7200 recommended over the 80D.

They also let their marketing material date too ... I noticed earlier that Nikon are still running adverts describing their "New" D810 ... which is rumoured they have stopped manufacturing and are going to bring out a replacement for.

JJ! said:
I don't know why they are not getting a bigger market share. Is it the marketing or are there just more people who think Canon are better?
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I'm sure part of the problem with Nikon's sales and market share is that they leapt ahead a while back, but Canon owners are still needing to upgrade each year and still don't have as good cameras :)
 
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JJ! said:
I don't know why they are not getting a bigger market share. Is it the marketing or are there just more people who think Canon are better?

As mentioned, Nikon have more best in class cameras, so why is that not turning in to sales?

Then again... To sell you need to have stock and the D750 stock levels have been seriously bad since the earthquakes, are D500 supplies as bad?
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I don't get it either, maybe Canon user's are incredibly loyal or have too much invested in the system.
 
Willo said:
I don't get it either, maybe Canon user's are incredibly loyal or have too much invested in the system.
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Does anyone know ... have their been figures recently showing what percentage of ILC sales are to existing customers vs customers swapping systems vs new to ILC?
 
Eloise said:
Does anyone know ... have their been figures recently showing what percentage of ILC sales are to existing customers vs customers swapping systems vs new to ILC?
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There would not be any information like that. You can only go on shipments, sales and financial results of companies.
 
Willo said:
There would not be any information like that. You can only go on shipments, sales and financial results of companies.
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Well some industries do and reveal market research. Like you can find estimates of what percentage of sales of iPhones are to existing Apple customers, Android users, etc. With phones there may be information from the networks I guess.

Perhaps flickr could show figures for people who used one camera and switched in a year...
 
Eloise said:
In terms of AF system I would say that Nikon is now up there with Canon, but it took a long time for them to catch up.
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I would say they still haven't quite caught up, and that makes me wonder if they ever will.

I mean, on paper it looks like Nikon's AF-S lenses are basically the same as Canon's USM: focus motor in the lens, and electronic coupling between lens and body. It's taken them a while, but in the last couple of years they've virtually eliminated the old body-motor mechanical-coupling system (apart from a few oddball lenses such as defocus and fisheyes).

But in practical use Canon's AF is faster. Comparing similar workhorse lenses, such as 24-70mm f/2.8 or 70-200mm f/2.8, the Nikon acquires focus quickly but the Canon just snaps into focus. It's noticeably faster and it's consistent.

I don't know why this is, because I'm sure they all strip down each other's equipment to see how it works, but I have two ideas. One is that the 'secret sauce' is comprehensively covered by patents. The other is that it's an artefact of the throat width. Either way, if Nikon could equal Canon's AF speed I'm sure they would.
 
StewartR said:
I would say they still haven't quite caught up, and that makes me wonder if they ever will.

I mean, on paper it looks like Nikon's AF-S lenses are basically the same as Canon's USM: focus motor in the lens, and electronic coupling between lens and body. It's taken them a while, but in the last couple of years they've virtually eliminated the old body-motor mechanical-coupling system (apart from a few oddball lenses such as defocus and fisheyes).

But in practical use Canon's AF is faster. Comparing similar workhorse lenses, such as 24-70mm f/2.8 or 70-200mm f/2.8, the Nikon acquires focus quickly but the Canon just snaps into focus. It's noticeably faster and it's consistent.

I don't know why this is, because I'm sure they all strip down each other's equipment to see how it works, but I have two ideas. One is that the 'secret sauce' is comprehensively covered by patents. The other is that it's an artefact of the throat width. Either way, if Nikon could equal Canon's AF speed I'm sure they would.
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Wow the Canon 24-70 must be fast then as the Nikon 24-70mm is the fastest lens I've ever used, it's almost telepathic ;)
 
snerkler said:
Wow the Canon 24-70 must be fast then as the Nikon 24-70mm is the fastest lens I've ever used, it's almost telepathic ;)
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*Almost* telepathic. There's the difference. ;)

Seriously though, Nikon shooters really don't appreciate how fast Canon's AF is when it comes to initial subject acquisition.
 
As a former Nikon user, my perception of Nikon (at the time of my switch to FF Canon) was of a company that produced fine cameras but did virtually everything else rather poorly. Poor marketing, poor software, poor quality control across several bodies and a couple of lenses, sparse low end camera features and firmware updates that seemed more designed to kill third party grips and batteries than add anything useful. I moved at the height of the D600 debacle, the self oiling sensor that Nikon failed to address for an extraordinary length of time. Meanwhile, Nikon produced the 1 Series at ludicrous prices which offered little of value, produced action cameras nobody will buy at the price and couldn't even get the DL Series to the starting blocks. All this makes Nikon management look inept to former customers like me. It certainly will not disappear overnight but the current downward sales trajectory is going to result in a much smaller company without firm and decisive action. I hope that they do get their act together and do more than repetitive minor updates to DSLRs, I think Tom Hogan and Tony Northrop are spot on with their analysis.
 
Lol.
the centre point was the only one i used and it is very good.and more it was just the combo of the lenses and sensor that just hit the sweet spot for me,just felt right YMMD ;)
 
I think the bottom line is that Nikon cannot blame anybody else but themselves :D
 
Whilst Nikon have enjoyed a sensor advantage in terms of dynanic range etc over Canon over the last few years, with Canon only pulling back their deficit at higher ISO, the new FF sensors and amplifier arrangements from Canon have closed the gap significantly with parity being achieved at much lower ISO than previously. Canon users, who may have been tempted before to switch now have less incentive there by bolstering Canons sales even further.
 
Gaz J said:
Whilst Nikon have enjoyed a sensor advantage in terms of dynanic range etc over Canon over the last few years, with Canon only pulling back their deficit at higher ISO, the new FF sensors and amplifier arrangements from Canon have closed the gap significantly with parity being achieved at much lower ISO than previously. Canon users, who may have been tempted before to switch now have less incentive there by bolstering Canons sales even further.
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But the bread and butter is the crop sensor cameras, and Nikon still have an advantage, that Nikon don't seem to be telling potential customers that is part of their problems. :rolleyes:

As has been said, they only have themselves to blame. Yes, there have been earthquakes and Tsunami's etc, but there are similar companies in the same regions that they didn't seem to affect as much.
 
Gaz J said:
Whilst Nikon have enjoyed a sensor advantage in terms of dynanic range etc over Canon over the last few years, with Canon only pulling back their deficit at higher ISO, the new FF sensors and amplifier arrangements from Canon have closed the gap significantly with parity being achieved at much lower ISO than previously. Canon users, who may have been tempted before to switch now have less incentive there by bolstering Canons sales even further.
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I can't help but think that Canon overprice their bodies though. Last year I was having problems with my D750 and very nearly ditched it all in favour of the 5D4, but the price of the 5D4 was/is crazy when you compare it to the D750 and D810 and it was purely this that prevented me Yes I know it's newer, and yes I know there's some cool tech in there but even so. Fortunately, Nikon finally agreed to replace my D750 so I'm a happy Nikon user again ;)
 
snerkler said:
I can't help but think that Canon overprice their bodies though
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They're making profits, growing their market share, and actually increasing the number of ILCs they're selling. Explain to me what they're doing wrong?
 
StewartR said:
They're making profits, growing their market share, and actually increasing the number of ILCs they're selling. Explain to me what they're doing wrong?
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Nothing wrong with their business model in that regard, just for me as a potential customer it's not (for me) offering great value for money. YMMV.
 
StewartR said:
They're making profits, growing their market share, and actually increasing the number of ILCs they're selling. Explain to me what they're doing wrong?
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Well ... nearly 16% drop in profit from the previous year may suggest all is not rosy with Canon too.
 
snerkler said:
I can't help but think that Canon overprice their bodies though. Last year I was having problems with my D750 and very nearly ditched it all in favour of the 5D4, but the price of the 5D4 was/is crazy when you compare it to the D750 and D810 and it was purely this that prevented me Yes I know it's newer, and yes I know there's some cool tech in there but even so. Fortunately, Nikon finally agreed to replace my D750 so I'm a happy Nikon user again ;)
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I would agree, but they seem to get away with it.

I bought a 1DX MkII when I retired to pair with my 1DX but I really like the look of the 5D4 and think I will sell my 1DX on to get one but if I do it will be grey so cost to me will be minimal.
 
SsSsSsSsSnake said:
Yep i never mentioned the AF,just read through the thread.
Now Snerkler on the other hand must have mentioned it at least 4 times lol
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Oops my bad ;)
 
snerkler said:
Kind of a summary of the Tony Northrup video

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OhD6AM0_90
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Niiiiiiiikon isn't going to fail according to that video ... but I wonder what he thinks about Nikon?

PS. In no way minimising the problems Nikon face ... but I do wish people who comment on Nikon's financial statement (and of course commenting on other financial statements) would learn what an "extraordinary" entry is. Another (related) term in accounting is "non-recurring" and that in plain English is a much better term - though in accounting speak they mean slightly different things.
 
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