Why are people buying electric cars?

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Delphin said:
The problem with ring fencing too much is when an unexpected large disaster happens.

If every pot is ring fenced you'd probably have to pay much more tax. If you can't move the money around you'd need the pot for bridges to be enough for a unexpected collapse, the pot for building to have enough to cover a huge fire, the roads pot large enough to cover any unexpected landslide or sink holes, and so on.
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There can still be a general pot from income tax etc for such things.
 
Delphin said:
The problem with ring fencing too much is when an unexpected large disaster happens.

If every pot is ring fenced you'd probably have to pay much more tax. If you can't move the money around you'd need the pot for bridges to be enough for a unexpected collapse, the pot for building to have enough to cover a huge fire, the roads pot large enough to cover any unexpected landslide or sink holes, and so on.
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A huge problem with ring-fencing is that some people then think that they need special treatment because they feel they have contributed a bit more.
 
cambsno said:
I just dont understand why we need car tax AND a tax on use (i.e. fuel). Do away with road tax and put the difference on the price of petrol (or the EV mileage charge) - so it goes from £300 tax & 1.70 per L (or 3p per mile) to say 1.74 per L and 5p per mile or however the maths works! One tax rather than 2, so less admin. And unless you have your own refinery/cooking oil/red diesel, you cant cheat the system and just not pay road tax!
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Road tax was always seen as a way of ensuring you had both an MOT and nsurance, you can't tax a car without it. However, now that it has all been computerised, I don't see the need. Originally "Road Tax" was put to one side for looking after the roads, but now it just goes into the coffers with all our other taxes.
 
Jelster said:
Road tax was always seen as a way of ensuring you had both an MOT and nsurance, you can't tax a car without it. However, now that it has all been computerised, I don't see the need. Originally "Road Tax" was put to one side for looking after the roads, but now it just goes into the coffers with all our other taxes.
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And ironically the roads have been neglected over time and are now dreadful. Although it was a long time ago that the ringfencing was lifted lol
 
gman said:
And ironically the roads have been neglected over time and are now dreadful. Although it was a long time ago that the ringfencing was lifted lol
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We went to Le Touquet last year and the roads in France put our to shame. I reckon ours are the worst in Europe, comparable to places like Albania.

www.hagerty.co.uk

The Great Disgrace: UK Potholes Put Drivers Off Taking to the Road | Hagerty UK

Britain’s pothole problem is worsening. New research from Hagerty reveals rising driver anxiety, vehicle damage and frustration over the state of UK roads.
www.hagerty.co.uk www.hagerty.co.uk
 
andya700 said:
We went to Le Touquet last year and the roads in France put our to shame. I reckon ours are the worst in Europe, comparable to places like Albania.

www.hagerty.co.uk

The Great Disgrace: UK Potholes Put Drivers Off Taking to the Road | Hagerty UK

Britain’s pothole problem is worsening. New research from Hagerty reveals rising driver anxiety, vehicle damage and frustration over the state of UK roads.
www.hagerty.co.uk www.hagerty.co.uk
Click to expand...

Just to counter; some of the D roads (equivalent of UK A roads) out here in this region of France are worse than the subsidence affected roads back in Sth Yorkshire.
 
gman said:
And ironically the roads have been neglected over time and are now dreadful. Although it was a long time ago that the ringfencing was lifted lol
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The issue with ring-fencing is that departments will run out of cash and cant get any more, while others at end of year have excess so spend it in order to not lose it next year. So what if we had more money ring fenced for roads and it was all fine, what would happen with this excess?

TBH I have moaned about this locally for ages. Cant remember which way round it all is but things like the district council wasting cash on silly initiatives while county council cant afford ro fix potholes. At the end of the day all of this is our/tax money so IMO should be diverted to where its needed
 
andya700 said:
We went to Le Touquet last year and the roads in France put our to shame. I reckon ours are the worst in Europe, comparable to places like Albania.

www.hagerty.co.uk

The Great Disgrace: UK Potholes Put Drivers Off Taking to the Road | Hagerty UK

Britain’s pothole problem is worsening. New research from Hagerty reveals rising driver anxiety, vehicle damage and frustration over the state of UK roads.
www.hagerty.co.uk www.hagerty.co.uk
Click to expand...

I found similar with Slovenia just recently, although in the heart of the city centre some bits could be rough, but it was more like joints in the road rather than holes.

We are legally required to ensure our cars are safe to be driven on the roads, yet the local authorities do not appear to be held to the same standard to ensure the roads are safe to be driven on, despite it being a Statutory requirement.
 
cambsno said:
The issue with ring-fencing is that departments will run out of cash and cant get any more, while others at end of year have excess so spend it in order to not lose it next year.
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This already happens, but with ringfencing there may be better ways to address this from having a central pot for such emergencies until the actual taxation elements can be addressed.

cambsno said:
So what if we had more money ring fenced for roads and it was all fine, what would happen with this excess?
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You then look beyond the binary mindset. If you are generating a surplus, then clearly the taxation is too high in that area. Reduce there and increase accordingly in another area that is in shortfall. This is what creates the element fairness.


cambsno said:
TBH I have moaned about this locally for ages. Cant remember which way round it all is but things like the district council wasting cash on silly initiatives while county council cant afford ro fix potholes. At the end of the day all of this is our/tax money so IMO should be diverted to where its needed
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I agree, but I think it's fairly evident that they are either too incompetent, too ideologically motivated or whatever else to be able to use our money responsibly and effectively. Although they certainly seem efficient at ensuring lucrative pensions for themselves. I don't know if ring fencing would be a better option, it would still require competence, but at the moment things clearly aren't working, so everything should be on the table.
 
Clive K said:
Just to counter; some of the D roads (equivalent of UK A roads) out here in this region of France are worse than the subsidence affected roads back in Sth Yorkshire.
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Interesting. The roads of the Aube and Morvan are vastly better than those of Oxfordshire, Northamptonshire and Buckinghamshire.
 
My neighbours Polestar weighs 2.3 tonne+ and is constantly used, while my Honda is 1.2 tonne and does maybe 4K miles a year, which car will cause most wear n tear to the local roads? Who pays the most RFL and fuel duty.? Will the polestar reach 17 year old and still be on the road, I think I can at least guess the answers.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Interesting. The roads of the Aube and Morvan are vastly better than those of Oxfordshire, Northamptonshire and Buckinghamshire.
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Before retirement second time around I used to travel through four departments, over 320km each day. In general the roads are as good as those I drove through in Sth Yorks, West Yorks and Gt Manchester last year. The main routes used by tourists and commercial travellers are usually well kept. But the road surfaces on D roads between towns and villages and in them varies tremendously. The departmental services are constantly patching them up. On my working days it was rare not to encounter some 'Route Barée' diversion.
 
Clive K said:
Before retirement second time around I used to travel through four departments, over 320km each day. In general the roads are as good as those I drove through in Sth Yorks, West Yorks and Gt Manchester last year. The main routes used by tourists and commercial travellers are usually well kept. But the road surfaces on D roads between towns and villages and in them varies tremendously. The departmental services are constantly patching them up. On my working days it was rare not to encounter some 'Route Barée' diversion.
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I'm sure it's partly down to lower traffic density, but we've been very impressed at the quality of roads on small country lanes in France. About 1/3 of our drive to Cussy is on D roads, pretty much from Troyes on. In the area around the village there has been quite a lot of resurfacing, and although many are still a patchwork, there's no big holes and only some surface imperfections to notice. I'd say the roads are on a par with the UK 30 years ago.
 
mj4456 said:
My neighbours Polestar weighs 2.3 tonne+ and is constantly used, while my Honda is 1.2 tonne and does maybe 4K miles a year, which car will cause most wear n tear to the local roads? Who pays the most RFL and fuel duty.? Will the polestar reach 17 year old and still be on the road, I think I can at least guess the answers.
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I said about this before (here or elsewhere)..... They want cars to be more efficient and better for the environment, yet (almost) everything new we see on the roads is huge and weighs 2 tonnes!

I'm not up on actual sales figures, but there sure appears to be more SUV type vehicles around than Ford Ka type vehicles.
 
LeeRatters said:
I said about this before (here or elsewhere)..... They want cars to be more efficient and better for the environment, yet (almost) everything new we see on the roads is huge and weighs 2 tonnes!

I'm not up on actual sales figures, but there sure appears to be more SUV type vehicles around than Ford Ka type vehicles.
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You don't even need to look at the sales figures because many of the standard cars are just gone now, the Ka has been discontinued and replaced the Puma mini-SUV and the Fiesta and Mondeo are both gone as well. I was frustrated when Mazda discontinued the Mazda6 however they pointed out barely anyone was buying it while the CX-5 (an SUV version of the 6) was one of the UK top sellers. Cars in that class used to be everywhere in the UK but almost all of them have disappeared now with the Mondeo, Laguna, Vectra/Insignia, Accord etc. all no longer being sold although an honourable mention to VW who still have cars in this class. The top seller in the UK right now is the Jaecoo 7 which is an SUV.

There's been fairly damning reports on the impact of the change to SUVs which on average are heavier and produce more emissions with some cities now considering restrictions or pricing on these vehicles.

Edit: Some interesting stats on SUVs here:

www.bikeradar.com

You are 44% more likely to be fatally injured if hit by an SUV, according to this new study | BikeRadar

Researchers find increased risk of death from collisions with Sport Utility Vehicles
www.bikeradar.com www.bikeradar.com

The authors of the study estimate that the proportion of car crashes involving an SUV is around 45% in the USA and around 20% in Europe, with SUVs said to be making up 48% of new car sales globally in 2023, up from 15% in 2010.
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That's a higher number than I expected.
 
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LeeRatters said:
I said about this before (here or elsewhere)..... They want cars to be more efficient and better for the environment, yet (almost) everything new we see on the roads is huge and weighs 2 tonnes!

I'm not up on actual sales figures, but there sure appears to be more SUV type vehicles around than Ford Ka type vehicles.
Click to expand...

Lifestyle changes would account for a lot of this:
  1. Hobbies like camping and outdoor stuff where you need space
  2. People are fatter than ever, need more space
  3. Perception/reality that a bigger car is safer
  4. Blended families need more space
  5. For older/less mobile, SUV are much easier to get in/out of
 
JohnMcL7 said:
You don't even need to look at the sales figures because many of the standard cars are just gone now, the Ka has been discontinued and replaced the Puma mini-SUV and the Fiesta and Mondeo are both gone as well. I was frustrated when Mazda discontinued the Mazda6 however they pointed out barely anyone was buying it while the CX-5 (an SUV version of the 6) was one of the UK top sellers. Cars in that class used to be everywhere in the UK but almost all of them have disappeared now with the Mondeo, Laguna, Vectra/Insignia, Accord etc. all no longer being sold although an honourable mention to VW who still have cars in this class. The top seller in the UK right now is the Jaecoo 7 which is an SUV.

There's been fairly damning reports on the impact of the change to SUVs which on average are heavier and produce more emissions with some cities now considering restrictions or pricing on these vehicles.
Click to expand...

I started looking for a new car in December last year after 6 years owning a medium SUV. Tried a Skoda Octavia estate, and just found it unpleasant to drive by comparison, although being auto didn't help. An SUV doesn't have to be super thirsty as my BMW proves, but they often do seem to be.
 
In the UK our road surfaces suffer a lot from the winter freeze/thaw cycle which is where most of the pot holes start. Go South and the cycle is not so harsh, even further South and it's gone completely. Head towards Scandinavia and the freeze lasts all winter so no real cycle to cause the pot holes ergo they have far fewer.
Folk love to complain about the state of our roads, preferring to blame it on poor management without ever thinking of why the situation exists in the first place.
 
Steep said:
In the UK our road surfaces suffer a lot from the winter freeze/thaw cycle which is where most of the pot holes start. Go South and the cycle is not so harsh, even further South and it's gone completely. Head towards Scandinavia and the freeze lasts all winter so no real cycle to cause the pot holes ergo they have far fewer.
Folk love to complain about the state of our roads, preferring to blame it on poor management without ever thinking of why the situation exists in the first place.
Click to expand...
The situation exists so councils should plan around it. I have to factor in maintenance of my house, from cleaning patio, watering grass etc... there are times I have to do more or less. The situation has also existed since the dawn of time (weather) but its only the last few years they have become an issue. Partly down to sub-standard repairs. I have been to Germany a few times this year (northern), similar climate and yet their roads are fine?
 
ancient_mariner said:
I started looking for a new car in December last year after 6 years owning a medium SUV. Tried a Skoda Octavia estate, and just found it unpleasant to drive by comparison, although being auto didn't help. An SUV doesn't have to be super thirsty as my BMW proves, but they often do seem to be.
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I dont know why SUVs have suddenly become this evil thing. Had a Kia Stonic for 3 years. Nice car, nice to drive, bit underpowered to be honest but very frugal
 
cambsno said:
Lifestyle changes would account for a lot of this:
  1. Hobbies like camping and outdoor stuff where you need space
  2. People are fatter than ever, need more space
  3. Perception/reality that a bigger car is safer
  4. Blended families need more space
  5. For older/less mobile, SUV are much easier to get in/out of
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Agreedon the last one. Because of the health issues I have and suffer with a back complaint, I had to get something bigger (taller) than my old Clubman. That's why I settled on a Q2, it's just an A3 with a bit more height. They don't offer it as a 2l 4WD in the UK anymore, for that you have to get the SQ2, and that was silly money.
 
cambsno said:
I dont know why SUVs have suddenly become this evil thing. Had a Kia Stonic for 3 years. Nice car, nice to drive, bit underpowered to be honest but very frugal
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They've been an evil thing for a long time, driven by Range Rover types that have become enormous gas guzzlers with tall fronts that are more harmful to peds if you collect them, and the weight can cause greater damage to roads. Smaller SUVs much less so due to being, well, smaller. I live just a few miles from Soho Farmhouse - country club for the rich and famous - and we see many guests driving veritable pantechnicons along our narrow country lanes at 35mph (and often in the villages with a 20mph speed limit) unable to cope with the size of their vehicle under non-city driving conditions. It's not just Range Rovers - take a look at the BMW X6 sometime, Audi, Jaecoo etc alternatives also available.

I'm not sure why the anti-SUV lobby haven't hated Transit van types even more, because they're worse in all the ways SUVs are bad, but perhaps tradesmen aren't a soft target.
 
cambsno said:
Lifestyle changes would account for a lot of this:
  1. Hobbies like camping and outdoor stuff where you need space
  2. People are fatter than ever, need more space
  3. Perception/reality that a bigger car is safer
  4. Blended families need more space
  5. For older/less mobile, SUV are much easier to get in/out of
Click to expand...

Vehicle safety has quite a large part to play in vehicles getting more bloated - both for occupants and pedestrians. Pedestrian safety has driven higher bonnet lines

Days of 900kg family hatchbacks like the Mk1 Golf are long gone.

Vehicles may be heavier but generally their tyre footprint has increased dramatically so the load on the road is probably fairly similar
 
The load may be similar bur the damage is very much greater, because of the bigger contact area. Water in cracks is compressed by tyres going over, but water doesn’t compress, so the cracks are expanded. A pothole can develop in a few hours.

When cars had skinny tyres, and were lighter, this wasn't such an issue.
 
cambsno said:
The situation exists so councils should plan around it. I have to factor in maintenance of my house, from cleaning patio, watering grass etc... there are times I have to do more or less. The situation has also existed since the dawn of time (weather) but its only the last few years they have become an issue. Partly down to sub-standard repairs. I have been to Germany a few times this year (northern), similar climate and yet their roads are fine?
Click to expand...

That's only partly true, the weather dictates when work can be done. e.g. start fixing them too early and a late frost ruins all your work. Roads are significantly busier than they were 20-30 years ago but there's only so much money to fix the roads and so problems get exaggerated. I can't speak for other areas but the Highland Council does a great job on the main roads early in the year at the expense of side roads and residential roads.
 
cambsno said:
Lifestyle changes would account for a lot of this:
  1. Hobbies like camping and outdoor stuff where you need space
  2. People are fatter than ever, need more space
  3. Perception/reality that a bigger car is safer
  4. Blended families need more space
  5. For older/less mobile, SUV are much easier to get in/out of
Click to expand...

I have an suv because I want 4WD with good ground clearance, a boot big enough to keep a dog cage in as well as room for shopping or fishing tackle, a comfortable, quiet ride and a high driving position. Nothing to do with lifestyle change. I'm nearly 70 and those have been my priorities for over 30 years.
 
Curiously the worst potholes I've ever seen were around Chicago in the spring after the thaw. I assume caused by the freezing conditions.

Pound Coin said:
The load may be similar bur the damage is very much greater, because of the bigger contact area. Water in cracks is compressed by tyres going over, but water doesn’t compress, so the cracks are expanded. A pothole can develop in a few hours.

When cars had skinny tyres, and were lighter, this wasn't such an issue.
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Do you have a reference for that?
 
Steep said:
That's only partly true, the weather dictates when work can be done. e.g. start fixing them too early and a late frost ruins all your work. Roads are significantly busier than they were 20-30 years ago but there's only so much money to fix the roads and so problems get exaggerated. I can't speak for other areas but the Highland Council does a great job on the main roads early in the year at the expense of side roads and residential roads.
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And the same could be said of Germany or France, but they manage!

Repairs done to local road 6 weeks ago, after a few days they started to fall apart. thats called a bad repair!
 
cambsno said:
And the same could be said of Germany or France, but they manage!
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Clearly you didn't read my first post, France and Germany do not have the same weather related issues with potholes.
 
Steep said:
Clearly you didn't read my first post, France and Germany do not have the same weather related issues with potholes.
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They do, certainly compared to the south east where I am - up in Scotland maybe not. But the weather here is almost the same as France & Germany. The weather is not the difference.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Curiously the worst potholes I've ever seen were around Chicago in the spring after the thaw. I assume caused by the freezing conditions.



Do you have a reference for that?
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It's from a Highways Engineer. So no hard reference, no.
 
cambsno said:
They do, certainly compared to the south east where I am - up in Scotland maybe not. But the weather here is almost the same as France & Germany. The weather is not the difference.
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France and Germany both have mountain ranges where temperatures fluctuate annually by up to 50C or more. Are there any similar mountains in south-east England?
 
ancient_mariner said:
Thanks for your honesty.
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There are plenty of references to heavier vehicles and more vehicles causing more damage to the roads. The freeze thaw cycle, the pressure from bigger vehicles, the bigger tyre contact area and the higher traffic levels are all factors.
 
The weight limit for HGVs was increased to 44 tons in the early 1990s. I honestly think nobody has actually done anything to improve the road infrastructure to cope with it. If more heavy stuff went via rail, the roads might not be knackered as much.

There is something called a Section 56 notice. Road out of repair that can be issued to councils and others. Private contractors are responsible for a lot of roads and they routinely rip off councils and the rest of us with poor quality repairs.
 
Steep said:
In the UK our road surfaces suffer a lot from the winter freeze/thaw cycle which is where most of the pot holes start. Go South and the cycle is not so harsh, even further South and it's gone completely. Head towards Scandinavia and the freeze lasts all winter so no real cycle to cause the pot holes ergo they have far fewer.
Folk love to complain about the state of our roads, preferring to blame it on poor management without ever thinking of why the situation exists in the first place.
Click to expand...

Glasgow barely gets any freezing conditions, yet we probably have some of the worst roads in the UK, never mind Scotland. It's an incompetent Government and Local Authority issue here, both useless SNP.
 
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