£1000 Setup for Architectural Photography

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StickyShutter

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Good evening all,

I'm going to be studying for a Masters degree in English Building History in September. It's important to me to get good photographs of the buildings I visit, for an academic record, for my own enjoyment, and for possible future use in a book I want to write.

I would be photographing exteriors, and also interiors in low light and where flash is prohibited.

I have about a grand, and this is what I'm thinking:

1. Full frame DSLR body, ie used EOS 5D Mk II
2. Standard zoom
3. A wide prime (ie 24mm, 17mm) and am happy to go 2nd hand and MF, and use adapter rings
4. A tripod and remote release

My questions are:

1. Is the 5D Mk II a good choice of body, and are there other options (maybe not even a DSLR?) that I should consider?
2. Within my budget, tilt/shift lenses are out of the question. Are there other options for controlling perspective in-camera? ie bellows, that I could consider? I know there is Lensbaby but that seems a bit "random" and is more to do with controlling focal point than perspective.
3. If I were to use adapter rings, ie M42 and Pentax K, would old manual lenses work well with a body like a 5D? What would be the potential pitfalls?

Thanks in advance
 
It may not be within your budget but I'd suggest a second hand 6D for low light, the 5D II is quite old now and newer sensors have less noise.
 
I have got exactly what you need sitting in a cupboard hardly used but unfortunately outside your budget.
The 5dMk2 on tripod will be fine, yes the 6D has less noise but long exposures are not a problem with a solid tripod, on that subject you really need a geared head to get the fine adjustments and the camera straight and level mine is a Manfrotto 190 with a junior 410 head and its solid as a rock.
Lenses ,17-40 f4 L , they are old but not all that expensive ,ideally a 24mm TS-E. The Mk2 is the best you can get but don,t ignore the Mk1. OK it is not quite as sharp and it does not tilt in both directions ( but you don't really need that) and a lot cheaper used than the MK2.
My original set up was a 5d Mk1 and a 24mm TS-E Mk 1, the 5D was a PITA because it did not have live view. I got the 5D Mk2 having got a good price for the Mk1 and was fortunate to pick up a Mk2 TS-E from a guy who decided he did not need it.
 
If your largest print size is going to be A4, and you can use a tripod in those dim no-flash interiors, then you could save some money by by going for a crop sensor body. Modern crop sensors at base ISO (which you can always use in a dim interior with a tripod) are not distinguishable in image quality from full frame at an A4 print size. I would also recommend using a good post-processing software perspective correction tool such as PTLens rather than a tilt-shift lens. I say a good tool such as PTLens because some image editors which claim to offer perspective adjustment in fact don't give you geometrically correct adjustment, they simply let you deform the image by deforming the image rectangle into a trapezoid of choice, which you do until it looks good, which is not necessarily a geometrically accurate perspective transformation. Software perspective adjustment (equivalent to lens shift) loses you some MP in the adjustment and cropping (in my experience rarely more than 30%), but with say a 24MP sensor you'll still have plenty left for a sharp A4 sized print. The advantage of software perspective adjustment is that it applies to all your lenses, including wider angle lenses than the 17mm which I believe is the widest Canon do.

If you will sometimes want to shoot interiors where not only flash but tripods are forbidden as well than it would be useful sometimes to have a camera body which can do good in-camera hand-held HDR. Interiors partly lit by shafts of sunlight from windows and partly in dark shade can have an extremely wide dynamic range. Even wider dynamic range will be required if you want to see some of the outside through-window view along with interior detail. Of course HDR post-processed from multiple tripod shot exposures under your control will be superior, but some churches and museums forbid both flash and tripods, in which case the only HDR possible will be hand-held in-camera.

These suggestions will be quite rightly ridiculed by those architectural photographers who aim to be able to provide A2 sized gallery exhibition prints. For that kind of detail resolution and image quality there is no substitute for full frame -- or even medium format -- and tilt-shift lenses. But if all you need are A4 prints, or A3 at a push with good lenses and not too much perspective adjustment, and tilt-shift lenses are outside your budget, then a crop sensor camera is all that you need. The savings over full frame will allow you get more or better quality lenses within your budget.
 
I would go for,

Nikon d700 about £400
Tokina 16 - 28 f/2.8 £450
Nikon PC 35mm f/2.8 Shift lens £250
Mafrotto Carbon Fibre Tripod and 3 way head £140

These are all based on ebay prices.
 
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Thanks - that's a great shopping list. Don't know much about Nikon range so it's great to have advice like this.
 
ah5168 said:
I would go for,

Nikon d700 about £400
Tokina 16 - 28 f/2.8 £450
Nikon PC 35mm f/2.8 Shift lens £250
Mafrotto Carbon Fibre Tripod and 3 way head £140

These are all based on ebay prices.
Click to expand...

Not any good d700`s for 400 on ebay, ragged junk for that price. I have been looking. Good examples are much more.
 
The budget is tight but shouldn't hinder you too much. So here's my tupence worth, with a mind to the budget.
1/ Camera, the 5D should be fine (the bigger the sensor the better) I would be weary of crop sensors, not due to any lack of quality but due to the more exaggerated perspectives on wider lenses.
2/ Any good standard zoom should be fine, as long as you a/ always use the lenses sweet spot (around f11 - f13 usually) and b/ keep it as level as possible and correct perspective later in software.
3/ Again, Any reputable manufactures wide angle used at it's sweet spot will be up to the job. at this budget I would probably rely on software to sort out perspective issues.
4/a Manfrotto's 190 tripod is pretty reasonable and readily available both new & used.
4/b A geared head is a major boon, especially if you may need to do HDR's or preferably composites with luminosity masks. The Manfrotto 410 junior would fit the bill. All ball and 3 way heads will droop slightly after being set. But be aware that over time all but the best geared heads will wear and become sloppy.
4c Save the cash and use the self timer. As an aside, use the mirror up facility especially for longer exposures.
 
MartinB said:
The budget is tight but shouldn't hinder you too much. So here's my tupence worth, with a mind to the budget.
1/ Camera, the 5D should be fine (the bigger the sensor the better) I would be weary of crop sensors, not due to any lack of quality but due to the more exaggerated perspectives on wider lenses.
Click to expand...
??

Crop sensors produce LESS exaggerated perspectives on wide lenses, e.g. the angle of view of a 12mm lens on a crop sensor of 1.5 crop factor is equivalent to the angle of view of an 18mm lens on a full frame sensor.
 
As the trend in recording buildings is toward immersive 360x180 VR photography. I would have thought that a samyang 8 mm fisheye lens would be essential, especially to establish context.
Whereas conventional lenses are far better at recording detail. In VR work.
Crop sensors are absolutely fine as VR is always seen on screen and the higher potential quality of FF is wasted.

Stitched multiple shots are also extremely useful in all architectural work using the FF equivalent of a 28mm lens.
Any crop APS sized sensor is more than sufficient for architectural work printed up to A3 sizes from single images. Stitched images at least double or treble the potential sizes that can be made without loss of quality.

This is a hand held stitched shot taken on a little Fuji X30 which only has a 2/3" sensor (8.8 x 6.6 mm) It would be impossible to get this view in with out stitching and with out showing massive keystone distortion. as there was no space in which to work... a common problem in architecture.
TA3X3186C-TA3X3185C by Terry Andrews, on Flickr

My choice for your work would be a Crop camera of some sort (Make fairly unimportant)
an 18-55 standard zoom. (best you can afford)
A second hand samyang fisheye 8mm ( they come in most major camera fittings)
A second hand manfrotto 190 tripod.. ( such as this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/manfrotto...267832?hash=item440686b5f8:g:WTQAAOSwz71ZVRZg)
A second hand Manfrotto 460MG 3-Way Magnesium Head ( the link above shows an earlier version of that head type which would be very suitable) 3 way heads are far easier than balls for architectural work.
A Panoramic head (that lets you set the no parallax point and is suitable for Both single and double row stitched pans and also 360x180 pans) ( this is about as basic as they come But you would need to check it is large enough for your particular camera)http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUNWAYFOT...580224&hash=item3f78310738:g:zwgAAOSw2XFUgZaR
Stitching software suitable for both types of pans PTGui is the best....by far... https://www.ptgui.com/
A wide angle lens( 24mm FF equivalent. Not necessary but likely to be better quality than the standard zoom.

This lis has been tailored for price. Anything else you might need can be added later on an absolute need basis. but a kit such as this would be more than adequate for 99% of the situations you might meet..

I have avoided adding in flash, as most architectural photography is better served with out it. I covered major store Interiors and Exteriors in London and all over the UK and some abroad, for over 7 years professionally, with out ever using flash at all .

Lighting is part of Architecture, and the lighting envisioned by the architect is important to record unaltered.

As a masters degree student you will have no difficulty getting permission to set up and take whatever photographs you need. However in some locations you may need to make after hours appointments.
I would also carry a covering letter from your department head explaining who you are, what you are doing, and asking for help in achieving it.

You might feel that 360 180 VR photography is not necessary. But a few years down the line it will become the norm. And will certainly add longevity and context to your work.

EDIT
I have changed my mind about Flash, as in your situation. Old buildings often entail small poorly lit rooms and dingy corners not to mention dark and hidden details. so an inexpensive flash or two will most likely be very helpful.
 
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chris malcolm said:
??

Crop sensors produce LESS exaggerated perspectives on wide lenses, e.g. the angle of view of a 12mm lens on a crop sensor of 1.5 crop factor is equivalent to the angle of view of an 18mm lens on a full frame sensor.
Click to expand...

I don't understand what people are talking about.

Perspective is a function of camera to subject distance. If you stand in the same position surely you'll get the same "perspective distortion" if you use 20mm on APS-C or 35mm on FF.

I'd imagine actual lens distortion, barrel, pincushion or whatever your lens of choice may have, is more important than perspective.

Anyway. Over to you lot.
 
woof woof said:
I don't understand what people are talking about.

Perspective is a function of camera to subject distance. If you stand in the same position surely you'll get the same "perspective distortion" if you use 20mm on APS-C or 35mm on FF.

I'd imagine actual lens distortion, barrel, pincushion or whatever your lens of choice may have, is more important than perspective.

Anyway. Over to you lot.
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Absolutely. For the purpose of what he needs to back up his work in historical building, he does not need extreme lenses anyway. he needs photographs that illustrate and demonstrate clearly and preferably with out distortion.
Over time they will become part of his life's work in that field. He is not taking photographs as an amateur would to demonstrate his artistic skills.

As all photographers should know by now, Geometric Perspective is a function of Viewpoint, not a choice of lens or format.

Such discussions about lenses and formats are largely irrelevant to his situation. and are total red herrings as well as being untrue.
 
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chris malcolm said:
??

Crop sensors produce LESS exaggerated perspectives on wide lenses, e.g. the angle of view of a 12mm lens on a crop sensor of 1.5 crop factor is equivalent to the angle of view of an 18mm lens on a full frame sensor.
Click to expand...
So, All these have similar angle of view, a crop sensor 18mm, full frame 24mm, 645 35mm, 5x4 75mm, 10x8 115mm. So the angle of view remains the same but the perspective becomes more natural the larger the sensor / film medium become. Which is why I choose to use the largest sensor that Phase One produce for all my commercial work.
 
MartinB said:
So, All these have similar angle of view, a crop sensor 18mm, full frame 24mm, 645 35mm, 5x4 75mm, 10x8 115mm. So the angle of view remains the same but the perspective becomes more natural the larger the sensor / film medium become. Which is why I choose to use the largest sensor that Phase One produce for all my commercial work.
Click to expand...

That's a use of the term "perspective" which is new to me. Suppose two photographs were taken from the same position of the same subject, one using an 18mm lens on a crop sensor, and one using a 115mm lens on a 10x8 plate, and prints of the same size cropped to have the same vertical and horizontal angle of view were made, what difference in perspective would I see between them?
 
chris malcolm said:
That's a use of the term "perspective" which is new to me. Suppose two photographs were taken from the same position of the same subject, one using an 18mm lens on a crop sensor, and one using a 115mm lens on a 10x8 plate, and prints of the same size cropped to have the same vertical and horizontal angle of view were made, what difference in perspective would I see between them?
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If they had the same angle of view in the final print ... no difference at all... in the perspective drawing.
However the quality and any distortion due to the lenses quality would show.

You could lay one over the other, on a light box, and the drawing would be identical.
 
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For what @ StickyShutter needs to do.... the size and weight advantages of a second hand Mirrorless APS like a Fuji XE 2 or 2s with !8-55 lens would probably be ideal as he would get the necessary quality in a more easy to carry package.
That and the kit I suggested above could be carried in a small bag.

I have noticed that you ask about correcting verticals.
I would suggest that this is far easier in software like photoshop ( Or the free GIM ) rather then spending vast sums On PC lenses.

In theory software correction does rearrange and invent pixels, but in practice, even experts fail to see the difference. Even a PC lens is spreading out the Photons into new positions so nothing is perfect.
 
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MartinB said:
So, All these have similar angle of view, a crop sensor 18mm, full frame 24mm, 645 35mm, 5x4 75mm, 10x8 115mm. So the angle of view remains the same but the perspective becomes more natural the larger the sensor / film medium become.
Click to expand...
No, you've got that wrong. The perspective is a function of the distance from the camera to the subject, and it is not dependent on the focal length of the lens or the format of the sensor.
MartinB said:
Which is why I choose to use the largest sensor that Phase One produce for all my commercial work.
Click to expand...
Well, I'm sure there are many good reasons for using the Phase One sensor, but perspective isn't one of them.
 
StewartR said:
No, you've got that wrong. The perspective is a function of the distance from the camera to the subject, and it is not dependent on the focal length of the lens or the format of the sensor.

Well, I'm sure there are many good reasons for using the Phase One sensor, but perspective isn't one of them.
Click to expand...
I stand corrected, I just took these two images about an hour ago. https://www.flickr.com/photos/152297916@N06/35586940701/in/dateposted-public/ and https://www.flickr.com/photos/152297916@N06/35549095472/in/dateposted-public/ One on a Fuji XT1 with 18mm @f11 the other on a Phase one IQ160, 35mm at f11. I cropped the Phase image to 6x9 and then cropped again slightly to match the Fuji image. Other than that, no corrections of any sort. optically, apart from a little barrel distortion, very similar outcome.
 
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