1/3rd Of The Way In, Infinity or Stacking?

[Dale.]

The landscape season isn't far off now. I recently got a new lens too, a 16-35f4L, to replace my 17-40f4L. The 17-40 was difficult to get sharp, from front to back. I'm hoping the 16-35 will be more forgiving.

It raised a question for me though. I normally set my aperture at f10 with the 17-40 and also, my 24-105. I then focus about 1/3rd of the way into the image. The 24-105 was more forgiving than the 17-40 but still, not foolproof.

The question is, which method is better for your average landscape, focus 1/3rd of the way in, focus at infinity or stack? Stacking is probably going to give the best results, but I've never tried it.

Is it worth trying at infinity? Anybody use this method over the other 2?

Ta.

 

[Boots]

Most of the time (because I'm lazy), I focus a third of the way into the scene. If I'm trying harder I try to hyperfocus.

However, if I'm on my A game, and have bothered to carry the TS-24, then I try to play the 3D chess game that is the Scheimpflug principle.

 

[woof woof]

I suppose a lot depends on focal length and the distance things are from the camera which will be decided by were you and other stuff is and if you're stood up or not. Being stood up or kneeling can potentially make a difference.

For example with a wide lens like anything 35mm or wider (and possibly 50mm too) focused at infinity at f5.6 or f8 to be doubly safe and depending on the scene everything could possibly be in the depth if you're stood up. I sometimes use the Merklinger method too but not often how as I can't be bothered with mental gymnastics A lot of the time I focus on something though.

 

[Craikeybaby]

I rely on the focus peaking on my Fujis.

 

[LeeRatters]

When I used to shoot wide with a big DOF back in my old Canon days (17-40L) I think I used to set it about 1.5m on the display & just leave it there.....

 

[Nod]

If you focus at infinity, you're throwing away all the DoF beyond there (if you see what I mean!)
Focus stacking will probably give the "best" results in terms of sharpness but can look unnatural.
I stick with picking an actual point of focus (a tree, building, cliff face) and hope that f/11 will give me acceptable sharpness. If a quick peek at the extremes shows that there's too much softness, I may even go up (down?!) to f/16 which might introduce a little diffraction softness but can give a more even look over the whole image.

 

[ancient_mariner]

For me, focus on the part that's the subject first, or if iKNOW dof is king then about 1/3 to1/2 way in. If the foreground is most key then I'll let the BG take its chances.

If I shot on a tripod then stacking would likely be better, but I don't like using them most of the time.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Depth of field is always a compromise. It trails off around the actual point of focus, whatever the aperture.
It is usually best to focus on whatever is the actual subject or most important part of the image. And let the compromise take care of itself. Remembering that the fall off is greatest the less the distance. So to focus on the hyperfocal distance is not a bad idea at smaller apertures. At wider apertures it is always best to focus on the important subject.
Tilt shift lens are little help as they only change the plane of focus. Tall objected can be out of focus at top and bottom in forward tilted images. Or be out of focus at the sides, if sideways tilted. Which can look unnatural, as the depth of field is always at right angles to the plane of focus. Tilted in other directions can look plain weird.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Many lenses, especially zooms often have a curved plane of focus. If this is true of one of your lenses it can be taken advantage of in the placement of subjects in the field of view. As an example foreground objects at the sides can be sharper than they might otherwise be than with a flat field lens, when focussed on more distanced subjects in the centre.

Conversely older portrait lenses often throw the sides out of focus.

This curvature of field often accounts for someone's preference for a particular lens, or focal length setting of a zoom.
Which might account for the op' s preference between his two lenses, when the shorter zoom should otherwise be more amenable in terms of depth of field.

 

[Dale.]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm planning a a little trip tomorrow to the coast, it's about 20 minutes away, I'm taking the 16-35 out for the first time. I have an idea in mind involving some long grasses, the beach and Arran. My usual method is to focus 1/3rd of the way in but I will try leaving my comfort zone tomorrow, I may even try a stack, as I'd like it sharp from my toes to the horizon.

We'll see what happens and I will update.

 

[Nod]

Experiment!

 

[Dale.]

Experiment!

For sure.

 

[Micro-four-thirds]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm planning a a little trip tomorrow to the coast, it's about 20 minutes away, I'm taking the 16-35 out for the first time. I have an idea in mind involving some long grasses, the beach and Arran. My usual methood id to focus 1/3rd of the way in but I will try leaving my comfot zone tomorrow, I may even try a stack, as I'd like it sharp from my toes to the horizon.

We'll see what happens and I will update.

Excellent idea, I’m looking forward to seeing how it turns out.
I’ve always struggled with long grasses near the beach as even the slightest breeze causes movement, I’m just thinking when it comes to stacking might that pose an issue? It should look fantastic though if everything goes to plan.
Best of luck.

 

[Dale.]

Excellent idea, I’m looking forward to seeing how it turns out.
I’ve always struggled with long grasses near the beach as even the slightest breeze causes movement, I’m just thinking when it comes to stacking might that pose an issue? It should look fantastic though if everything goes to plan.
Best of luck.

Cheers.

If the grasses are swaying, I'll make use of that instead, we'll see how it goes.

Taking my 150-600 too, great place for Stonechats.

 

[Nod]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm planning a a little trip tomorrow to the coast, it's about 20 minutes away, I'm taking the 16-35 out for the first time. I have an idea in mind involving some long grasses, the beach and Arran. My usual method is to focus 1/3rd of the way in but I will try leaving my comfort zone tomorrow, I may even try a stack, as I'd like it sharp from my toes to the horizon.

We'll see what happens and I will update.

FWIW, when I've tried to get grasses/reeds in the foreground with loads of DoF to get the background reasonably sharp, I've found that the grasses/reeds all but vanish into the more detailed BG so I now use a shallow DoF to blur the BG.
Also, the grasses being OOF (if you try stcking) will almost certainly soften the stack layers behind them. An option could be to cheat slightly, using a shot of the grasses isolated against a blue sky (IF that ever happens again!!!) and dropping them (after carefully erasing the blue sky) onto a stacked BG shot/image.

Like James, I look forward to seeing the results.

 

[Steelo]

Third of the way in OR the main part of the photo I want sharp for me. Front to back sharpness is something I never bother about, and I'll only focus stack if I have a prominent foreground feature.

 

[Dale.]

Well, I went and tried but the hoped for light never really came. I think there is a shot there but conditions need to be spot on. I saw a composition that I will revisit though.

Still, had a good few hours out with my buddy.

 

[alfbranch]

I love M4/3 for this anything from 12mm or wider set tge aperture to f8 and 2m on the focus scale and it done.

 

[reheat module]

Well, I went and tried but the hoped for light never really came. I think there is a shot there but conditions need to be spot on. I saw a composition that I will revisit though.

Still, had a good few hours out with my buddy.

The first three sentences are the delights and pitfalls of our wonderful hobby.
The final sentence suggests a good pub was nearby?

 

[Dale.]

The final sentence suggests a good pub was nearby?

There were but we didn't partake, it was just good to be out.

 

[smr]

I usually focus in a third in but it depends on the scene, if I can focus stack and I feel it really needs it then I will. Otherwise about a third in and as small an aperture I can before diffraction.

 

[justinminns]

The landscape season isn't far off now.

Looks like your question has been answered but I'm more interested in when the landscape season is?

 

[Dale.]

Looks like your question has been answered but I'm more interested in when the landscape season is?

Personally, from Octoberish until about March, best conditions for my tastes. I think a lot of landscape photographers enjoy this period more than the summer months.

That's probably a whole new debate.

 

[LeeRatters]

Personally, from Octoberish until about March, best conditions for my tastes. I think a lot of landscape photographers enjoy this period more than the summer months.

That's probably a whole new debate.

We've had summer months....? I must have blinked.

 

[Nod]

Personally, from Octoberish until about March, best conditions for my tastes. I think a lot of landscape photographers enjoy this period more than the summer months.

That's probably a whole new debate.

Generally fewer people around to get in the way!

 

[SFTPhotography]

Personally, from Octoberish until about March, best conditions for my tastes. I think a lot of landscape photographers enjoy this period more than the summer months.

That's probably a whole new debate.

Indeed. For me, it's May to October. I love the late spring, summer and autumn. The winter not so much.

 

[Dale.]

Generally fewer people around to get in the way!

Which is nice.

 

[Tulipone]

Went to Staithes yesterday. It was 'quite' busy.

 

[SFTPhotography]

Went to Staithes yesterday. It was 'quite' busy.

I tend to find here in Scotland, the very early summer mornings actually see less photographer and general biz than in the winter. The 4am tripod down requirements seperate the men from the boys. No risk of dog walkers, slow drivers or any other nuisances at these hours, whereas 8am in the winter, yes there is.

 

[Tulipone]

To be honest I very much doubt that I could take any photo in Staithes on a sunny August morning that has not been taken thousands of times already. We arrived and left early - when we left there were angry conversations between two drivers over who saw our vacating space first. Ironically both were blocking my exit and we all had to wait until one gave way Before any of us could move.

 

[Dale.]

seperate the men from the boys.

Standing in the River Coupall with leaky wellies when it's minus 10 doesn't, of course.

there were angry conversations between two drivers over who saw our vacating space first.

I don't get this, what happens to some people when they get in a car? No need for it to spoil a day, why don't they just move on?



The above mentioned 17-40 is now history, it has been traded in and I have a nice, new, shiny Sigma 24-105 Art as well as a 16-35 f4.

I still have the Canon 24-105L Mk1 with the dodgy AF, that is now on my M5 and staying there, a great little walkaround combo.

I gave the Sigma a run out last week, I was underwhelmed if I'm honest but in fairness, the light was awful. It was much better last night, despite the light not being great again but much more what I was expecting from the lens.

For now with the Sigma, I'm focusing 1/3rd of the way in still, until I find my feet with it.

 

[SFTPhotography]

Standing in the River Coupall with leaky wellies when it's minus 10 doesn't, of course.

Been there, done that minus the leaking wellies...but there's a dedication to getting up at 1am for sunrise on Skye that a lot don't manage. Then in Scotland, there is the midges.

Chose you poison, get chased off Rannoch Moor by the cold, or get chased off by the midges. There's a rare sweet spot in the year where neither applies.

I don't get this, what happens to some people when they get in a car? No need for it to spoil a day, why don't they just move on?

Depends how many spaces there are.

For now with the Sigma, I'm focusing 1/3rd of the way in still, until I find my feet with it.

Back to the topic. What's a 3rd of the way in? It's a very approximate thing designed I believe around tiny 10x8 prints and "acceptable" sharpness.

I tend to avoid foreground-biased scenes, then can focus on the thing that really matters which for me is usually somewhere in the distance, open the lens up a little (peak sharpness isn't at F11, but at F5.6-F8 on a sharp prime with perfect centre to edge sharpness demonstratable). F13-F16 depending on pixel pitch you have quite visible softening which rather negates the perfect focus point, it might all be in focus, but it will all be a bit soft and lacking bite.

On a zoom I might go to F10 or something, but for me, side to side sharpness is as important as front to back. Cheap amateur lenses don't really deliver this, even stopped down, but they're awful at F4-F5.6 yet quite good in the middle, go to F11 and they're not so good in middle but a bit better in the sides. Of course with F10, the dust bunnies are more defined, smaller, and easier to clone.

Try a high-quality medium format zoom, or high-end prime on 35mm format and you'll see what I mean.

I toy with getting rid of my 70-200 2.8 and see if I could work with 85 and 135mm only, but I fear its too limiting, but the image quality is there, and without foreground-biased compositions, you can open the lens up, really get into the optical sweet spot and achieve true 8k resolution.

 

[Tricky01]

I rely on the focus peaking on my Fujis.

I used to, but find it quite unreliable with wide angle shots. That's on my Sony A9 anyway. Focus zoom is generally safer

 

[Dale.]

Been there, done that minus the leaking wellies...but there's a dedication to getting up at 1am for sunrise on Skye that a lot don't manage.

The dedication works all ways, all year. Like you, been there done that too. I would say though, on 2 occasions a couple of years ago, I ended up staying up for 37 and 42 hours respectively, that was dedication, if a bit daft. I won't go to that extreme again, I actually felt ill but getting out of bed for a shot doesn't bother me either, although, if I'm leaving home at 1am, I will stay up and sleep when I get home about midday.

Another trick during summer is to go for the sunset hours, stay through the dark hours, then get the sunrise. The middle of the day during summer usually doesn't appeal to me.

Chose you poison, get chased off Rannoch Moor by the cold, or get chased off by the midges. There's a rare sweet spot in the year where neither applies.

Got both those T-shirts too. Oddly enough, at 3am one morning, the midges were coming through the vents of my parked car, there was no escape. The low drone I could hear was midges outside the car, I couldn't see them as it was still dark. Only as it got light did I see thousands of them crawling along the bottom of the windscreen, inside the car. Oddly again, they weren't biting inside the car but outside was murder. I had to drive away, windows open, blower on full. I must admit, that was unpleasant. I was parked in that layby on Rannoch Moor, the first one on the right, just about opposite where the campervans park up, you'll know the one.

Cold is OK, don't mind that, I've never really felt it. I sense it's cold but it's not bothersome.

Back to the topic.

What's a 3rd of the way in?

Generally speaking, I put a single focus point on the bottom third line, on a rock or something that might be there. It's not perfect though and needs tweaking at the time but gives acceptable results.

I feel it could be better though, and why I'm considering trying stacking, when I get to know the Sigma (and 16-35) better.

I'm not sure on the 10x8 print thing, 1/3rd of the way in just seems logical for landscapes. I am seeing the flaws in it though.


I was out last night, just a wee jaunt, and opened up to f10. I worked at f11 one night last week with the new Sigma which was underwhelming, it seems much better at f10 with better front to back sharpness. I may try f9 next time, I think it could be an improvement again. It's a new lens, I need to use it to find it's sweetspots. No doubt, the 16-35L will need the same approach. My hope is that it is better than the 17-40, which it should be.

Medium format is appealing, I have no doubt about its improvement, even over FF. I also have a bit of a thing for Fuji, and they make some nice MF kit. Fuji may not be the best MF kit out there but the best of MF is out of reach for me. MF wouldn't really be much good for my other passion, wildlife as the lenses for that don't really exist (as far as I'm aware) but it's horses for courses, so if I ever did take the MF plunge, I'd also keep some of my Canon gear.

MF? Maybe one day. For now though, it is what it is and I have to work with what I have...... not that what I have is too shabby.

 

[SFTPhotography]

The dedication works all ways, all year. Like you, been there done that too. I would say though, on 2 occasions a couple of years ago, I ended up staying up for 37 and 42 hours respectively, that was dedication, if a bit daft. I won't go to that extreme again, I actually felt ill but getting out of bed for a shot doesn't bother me either, although, if I'm leaving home at 1am, I will stay up and sleep when I get home about midday.

Another trick during summer is to go for the sunset hours, stay through the dark hours, then get the sunrise. The middle of the day during summer usually doesn't appeal to me.



Got both those T-shirts too. Oddly enough, at 3am one morning, the midges were coming through the vents of my parked car, there was no escape. The low drone I could hear was midges outside the car, I couldn't see them as it was still dark. Only as it got light did I see thousands of them crawling along the bottom of the windscreen, inside the car. Oddly again, they weren't biting inside the car but outside was murder. I had to drive away, windows open, blower on full. I must admit, that was unpleasant. I was parked in that layby on Rannoch Moor, the first one on the right, just about opposite where the campervans park up, you'll know the one.

Cold is OK, don't mind that, I've never really felt it. I sense it's cold but it's not bothersome.

I find cold weather just awful, even wrapping up warm. But there's a charm to the snow, clearer air etc.

The shoot the evening then the morning is a good trick for the summer, a Glencoe sunset followed by a Skye sunrise is a powerfful combination. One I've not done this year though

Generally speaking, I put a single focus point on the bottom third line, on a rock or something that might be there. It's not perfect though and needs tweaking at the time but gives acceptable results.

I feel it could be better though, and why I'm considering trying stacking, when I get to know the Sigma (and 16-35) better.

I'm not sure on the 10x8 print thing, 1/3rd of the way in just seems logical for landscapes. I am seeing the flaws in it though.

It don't think it's a great technique.

Another thing I like to do is go into live view, zoom to 100% and manually focus and that works well - especially with prime lenses with stiffer more precise focus rings.

I expect with the focus by wire designs this technique may see a come back, as you can program the focus ring any way you want.

I was out last night, just a wee jaunt, and opened up to f10. I worked at f11 one night last week with the new Sigma which was underwhelming, it seems much better at f10 with better front to back sharpness. I may try f9 next time, I think it could be an improvement again. It's a new lens, I need to use it to find it's sweetspots. No doubt, the 16-35L will need the same approach. My hope is that it is better than the 17-40, which it should be.

F10 that little bit less diffraction, than F11 but still stopped down enough to give a big DoF and good side sharpness. Also keeps the sensor spots small and thus easily removed

Medium format is appealing, I have no doubt about its improvement, even over FF. I also have a bit of a thing for Fuji, and they make some nice MF kit. Fuji may not be the best MF kit out there but the best of MF is out of reach for me. MF wouldn't really be much good for my other passion, wildlife as the lenses for that don't really exist (as far as I'm aware) but it's horses for courses, so if I ever did take the MF plunge, I'd also keep some of my Canon gear.

I miss the 645z and yes, agree completely.

MF? Maybe one day. For now though, it is what it is and I have to work with what I have...... not that what I have is too shabby.