18% grey

Lynton

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Ok, I have read this a lot on here and other places lately and must admit I just don't get it when it comes to colour pics........and midtones.......

My understanding is I take 18 drops of pure black paint and mix with 82 drops of white paint that will give me aomething that is 18% grey (sorry form the crap analogy) I can see where it comes from in "ye olde dayes of black and white fylme photography" - buit can't get me head round it now.

Just how does that relate to a midtone in a colour pic?????????
 
It is 18% reflectance. If you shine a light on an 18% grey card, 18% of the light will be reflected off it.

It's a darkish mid-grey, which you might think ought to be 50% grey, but it isn't. Light and pigments/paint don't work in quite the same way. If you have a Lowepro bag, it's a bit darker than the interior lining. A darkish dove grey, colour of your average ferral city pigeon.

18% grey sits around the middle of your histogram, though there is debate about whether camera manufacturers calibrate their systems to 18%, or 12%, or 15% or whatever.

Bottom line is that it doesn't really matter, but 18% is at least a universally accepted stardard that is generally used for reference.

18% grey cards are also neutral grey, with equal quantities of red, green and blue, and also yellow, magenta, cyan (if you look at a colour wheel). That's why they're good for setting white balance - match the grey exactly, with no tint or hue, and all the other colours in a scene will fall accurately into line.
 
How do we arrive at 18% gray. Well the whitest we can get is 95% reflectance and the blackest is black velvet cloth which is 3.5% reflectance. So the middle tone is the square root of the product of 95% * 3.5% which sits nicely in the middle at 18%. There are 5 exposure stops from black to white. 2 and 1/2 stops either side of the 18% gray.
 
whoa!!!!!............. I am getting even more confused now...........

OK I get the maths Andrew #(and i now know why it is called a midtone, being halfway between B & W), and thanks Hoppy for your detailed explanation.......

What I still don't "get" is how 18% grey represents the midtones in a colour photo.

Hypothetical example - I go to the beach tonight to take a nice sunset.......... whats a midtone to expose on?

Yep I am being particularly thick, but I didn't understand multiflash until last week when Dean explained it and demonstrated in about 30 mins!
 
whoa!!!!!............. I am getting even more confused now...........

OK I get the maths Andrew #(and i now know why it is called a midtone, being halfway between B & W), and thanks Hoppy for your detailed explanation.......

What I still don't "get" is how 18% grey represents the midtones in a colour photo.

Hypothetical example - I go to the beach tonight to take a nice sunset.......... whats a midtone to expose on?

Yep I am being particularly thick, but I didn't understand multiflash until last week when Dean explained it and demonstrated in about 30 mins!
If you expose on a mid tone then you will get equal amounts of light detail each side of center. ie you have say 5 stops the mid one is gray and you will get 2 stop each side making 5 stops of detail. In truth there is more then this but you need some where to start.
Now your sunset is different, as you will want it as you see it more or less, your camera will make it look over exposed if you try and meter of the scene also your WB will also look wrong if set to auto; this is not a good example. Mid Grey is near grass green.
 
Does this mean you just take an "auto" shot with a grey card and then choose custom WB? or do you use manual setting to take the photo? :thinking:
 
Does this mean you just take an "auto" shot with a grey card and then choose custom WB? or do you use manual setting to take the photo? :thinking:

you take a reading from the gray card and set it manually if you take the sunset best to set WB to daylight think back to film days you had one film in and what ever WB it was that was for all the photos taken on that film. But if you was taking a photo and you want it as per the light it was in then you can take a photo of the gray card and set your wb to this. all depends on what your camera will do as to how you use it also I shoot in RAW so I set it after any how.
 
OK a very daft question, when people say they meter off a grey card or a bride's dress for example, is that using spot metering? why can't you use the camera's inbuilt light meter, wouldn't this be as effective?

I get very confused between centre weighted and spot metering and which to use
 
In a nutshell, the business of exposure is to measure the brightness of the important tones within a scene and translate them into a combination of camera settings that will deliver just the right amount of light to the sensor (or film).

The difficulty is that most average scenes have a brighness ratio - the dynamic range - of several hundred to one, even thousands to one if the sun is in the frame, whereas the sensor can only handle about 128:1 (very rough rule of thumb). That's seven stops - 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 - count the commas. Using Andrew's example above of only five stops, that is reduced to just 32:1, which is pretty tight but not untypical of what you get in a good quality print.

Your eye can adapt to a very wide range of tones instantly and automatically, but because the sensor cannot record them all, you have to choose the important tones, and be prepared to let some others blow to pure white, or at the shadow end just allow them to clog up to solid black with no tonal separation.

An exposure meter attempts to estimate the brightness of the important tones, which are generally around the 18% grey area. It then sticks 18% grey in the middle of the sensor's dynamic range (around the middle of the histogram) and you hope that the other important tones will be contained in the latitude either side.

This pretty hit and miss method generally works okay and is relatively 'safe'. But not always, it doesn't suit all subjects, nor does it usually maximise the sensor's recording potential, some sensors are better than others, and so it goes on etc etc. Working in this way, being guided fairly blindly by the exposure meter, will almost always get you a usable, workable result. But for optimum exposure, you can often get a better result by understanding how it all works and applying that knowledge appropriately according to the subject and the medium (different for different types of film, and for different digital techniques and outputs).

It's a skill, simple as. But the histogram is a fantastic aid. Further, if you know that the important tones cannot be contained within the dynamic range, no matter how carefully you adjust the exposure, then that's when you need to change things further by adding a grad filter, or a polariser, or use HDR technique, or fill-in flash, or a reflector. That sort of thing, to try and get a closer match between the subject's dynamic range and the recording capability of the sensor.

IMHO matrix/evaluative metering is usually the most reliable. This is basically dozens of individual spot meter readings from all over the frame. In this way, the camera not only knows what the average brightness is over the scene (which is pretty much all that other metering methods do) it also knows the dynamic range, where the extreme tones are and how extensive they are, where the important mid-tones are and how dominant they are. It then takes this very valuable information and compares it to a database of thousands of typical images, and comes up with recommended exposure settings. For example, very simplistically, it knows that if there is a lot of bright area along the top of the frame, it is probably sky and so it will add extra exposure to make sure the foreground doesn't go too dark.

Centre-weighted metering just scrambles all the light from the whole frame, with an emphasis towards the centre. Spot metering also scrambles the light into an average tone, but only reads from the centre circle in the viewfinder - use with care!
 
I think you have misunderstood the 5stops and what is recorded
A 12 bit image is capable of recording 4,096 (2^12) discrete tonal values. One would think that therefore each F/Stop of the 5 stop range would be able to record some 850 (4096 / 5) of these steps. But, alas, this is not the case. The way that it really works is that the first (brightest) stop's worth of data contains 2048 of these steps — fully half of those available.
Within the first F/Stop, which contains the Brightest Tones
2048 levels available

Within the second F/Stop, which contains Bright Tones
1024 levels available

Within the third F/Stop, which contains the Mid-Tones
512 levels available

Within the fourth F/Stop, which contains Dark Tones
256 levels available

Within the fifth F/Stop, which contains the Darkest Tones
128 levels available
If you shoot in JPG then it will be less as you will only have 256 discrete tonal values
 
I think you have misunderstood the 5stops and what is recorded
A 12 bit image is capable of recording 4,096 (2^12) discrete tonal values. One would think that therefore each F/Stop of the 5 stop range would be able to record some 850 (4096 / 5) of these steps. But, alas, this is not the case. The way that it really works is that the first (brightest) stop's worth of data contains 2048 of these steps — fully half of those available.
Within the first F/Stop, which contains the Brightest Tones
2048 levels available

Within the second F/Stop, which contains Bright Tones
1024 levels available

Within the third F/Stop, which contains the Mid-Tones
512 levels available

Within the fourth F/Stop, which contains Dark Tones
256 levels available

Within the fifth F/Stop, which contains the Darkest Tones
128 levels available
If you shoot in JPG then it will be less as you will only have 256 discrete tonal values

Who is misunderstanding what? The point you are making is different.

What you are saying is part of the double benefit of expose to the right technique.

That is, when you ETTR, you not only pull the shadows into an area of the dynamic range where they can be recorded, you are also pushing mid tones and highlights further up the scale where there is much more data recorded, much finer tonal gradation.

And IMO it is a very important point. ETTR is a gift of digital post processing that, when the subject allows you to do it, really does make a big difference to image quality. It just allows you to collect and record more lovely light, basically by over exposing (in theory) and exploiting the headroom on the Raw file, then restoring the exposure level in post but with the extra detail retained. The result is sparkling mid tones and highlights, luminous shadows with real tonal gradation and minimal noise.

Just as under exposure is death to image quality, so ETTR optimises it. The downside is it's risky, pushing to the limit if you over cook it, and you effectively lose a couple of stops of ISO.
 
But, alas, this is not the case. The way that it really works is that the first (brightest) stop's worth of data contains 2048 of these steps — fully half of those available.

Within the first F/Stop, which contains the Brightest Tones
2048 levels available

Within the second F/Stop, which contains Bright Tones
1024 levels available

Within the third F/Stop, which contains the Mid-Tones
512 levels available

Within the fourth F/Stop, which contains Dark Tones
256 levels available

Within the fifth F/Stop, which contains the Darkest Tones
128 levels available

Have you got a link to somewhere with a technical explanation for this? I've read it a few times but never seen it backed up more than just:

"Because CCD and CMOS chips are linear devices. And, of course, each F/Stop records half of the light of the previous one, and therefore half the remaining data space available." (Luminous-Landscape)

which seems a bit lacking in detail.

Regardless, ETTR makes sense as (if I understand it correctly) it just says you should use as much of your sensors dynamic range as possible when capturing a given scene.
 
Have you got a link to somewhere with a technical explanation for this? I've read it a few times but never seen it backed up more than just:

"Because CCD and CMOS chips are linear devices. And, of course, each F/Stop records half of the light of the previous one, and therefore half the remaining data space available." (Luminous-Landscape)

which seems a bit lacking in detail.

Regardless, ETTR makes sense as (if I understand it correctly) it just says you should use as much of your sensors dynamic range as possible when capturing a given scene.

There is a bit more detail here http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/exposure/exposure.htm

The rest of the articles are quite good too.
 
Simple, keep a pigeon in your camera bag, and meter off it as light changes.

I do, but I'd never thought to meter off it! Top tip - cheers :D

I suppose I need to get a dove now too, to set my white balance...
 
Thanks for the info above, I got a grey card from a friend so thought I would use it and see what happens, could never figure it out tbh. LOL!! I always used the inbuilt light meter when on manual.
Anyway I thought I would share two shots with you:
1. This I set it to program and took the photo
http://i993.photobucket.com/albums/af56/norahbattie/Randomphotos_0018.jpg
2. This is metering on the grey card and then taking the photo.
http://i993.photobucket.com/albums/af56/norahbattie/Randomphotos_0017.jpg

Staff Edit : Image(s) removed. (Link(s) left in place). Pictures must not exceed current forum limits as per the rules. Please feel free to replace this with a fresh/resized image and remove this text :)

Now the real question is...did I use the grey card correctly?
Thx
Nadira
 
Can't answer that as you haven't told us exactly how you used it....


Oops sorry, switched into manual, kept the aperture the same in both images, put the grey card on Humphrey (the teddy) metered using the scroll button on the canon and then snapped.

I had to increase the ISO in the program photo from 100 to 400 as it was blurry at 100 handheld.
 
A bit odd, as there is actually 2 stops of difference between the shots...

Program: 1/10 sec, f/2.8, ISO 200
Manual: 1/21 sec, f/2.8, ISO 100

If you made the ISO200 in program mode ISO100, that would give you a shutter speed of 1/5 sec - 2 stops away from 1/20 in manual mode?

Neither of them are properly exposed - it looks like 1 stop over and 1 stop under for each of them respectively.

Which metering mode did you use with the grey card, or did you totally fill the VF with it?
 
I used manual, filled the grey card and put the circle in my view finder.
I am very puzzled too, you are right indeed with the settings...very confused. Why is this happening?
 
I used manual, filled the grey card and put the circle in my view finder.
I am very puzzled too, you are right indeed with the settings...very confused. Why is this happening?

I'm not certain what you mean by "filled the grey card". The grey card must fill the entire metering area. That is the whole frame with evaluative or centre weighted, or the centre circle if you're on spot. The light must be exactly the same as falling on the subject, being careful not to shade it.

It's quite common for grey card and incident light readings to under expose in my experience, but not by that much, in that kind situation. First image looks okay to me; it can take a bit of over exposure because there are no important pure white areas that might otherwise blow.
 
"filled the grey card" my grey card has a small circle and cross (had this in my viewfinder circle) i only presumed they were supposed to line up. I then put the camera on manual and then use the scroll button to put the little green arrow into the middle.
 
"filled the grey card" my grey card has a small circle and cross (had this in my viewfinder circle) i only presumed they were supposed to line up. I then put the camera on manual and then use the scroll button to put the little green arrow into the middle.

Depends which metering mode you were using, though.... if you could see nothing but the grey card in the VF it wouldn't matter, but if you were using multi point metering and the card only filled say 50% (or anything less than 100%, really), it matters a lot as it's also going to be using readings that aren't 18% grey....
 
18% grey sits around the middle of your histogram, though there is debate about whether camera manufacturers calibrate their systems to 18%, or 12%, or 15% or whatever.

18% in the middle, is that right? I would have thought the 50% grey tones are in the middle of the histogram since the left is pure black and right is pure white. Isnt what you're saying implying the scale is logarithmic?! That just seems really really counter-intuiative to me, however would explain a fair bit in a way with a problem ive got atm....
 
it filled the entire viewfinder and I used evaluative metering

A bit weird, but can only suggest you try again under different conditions - both shots are only around a stop or less away from perfect anyway, so it's no big issue, although no grey card appears to give the better exposure to me.
 
Oops! Misread the post ;)
 
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