2nd hand bodies, Shutter count importance & manipulation

Suzy McKnockers

Suzy McKnockers

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Jason
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I'm looking at picking up a second hand body, probably a d800. Some have quite low shutter counts which is great - however airing on the side of caution I was wondering if these numbers can be manipulated? If so, how could check and how cautions should i be?

Cheers

J
 
I'm not sure that many people would be able to manipulate the shutter count and I believe even where a new shutter has been fitted the camera still displays the complete shutter count ... I guess Nikon could change the count on the D800. There are various ways to check a count on a camera in your hands ... check by uploading the latest image to myshuttercount.com or check the File Info in Photoshop (Raw Data).
 
Thanks buddy - i also know you can check by right clicking on an image (on mac) view in preview, go to tools, and there are some options in there also... however this method isn't really practical when your rounds someones gaf ha! i just thought if is can be done on car's which it may be possible on camera's too... (obviously im referring to milage ha ha )
 
See what you mean, but cars can give the crooked seller a nice profit when clocking cars, especially premium ones. A camera is very cheap in comparison and wouldn't give the returns they could make with a car. Also with the DVLA and other sites you can check if a car has been clocked quite easily.

I think most sellers wouldn't mind you taking a card around to their house and trying the camera out and performing a shutter count, if available for the camera.
 
You cant compare cars millage with shutter count. it doesnt work the same..... a shutter can pack up at 1 thousand or 100 thousand.. the shutter figure the company gives is just a guideline.. if the shutter packs up while in warranty they will replace but only if below the guide count..

Obviously a body shot half a million times compared to 10 thousand times wil ahve a bigger impact.. but other than that I really wouldnt get too hung up about shutter counts :)
 
thats god to know then... cheers mate, I just wasn't sure if there is a particular number some bodies reach then just... stop working or you start to see problems creeping in. I guess thats the resemblance i was making to a car.. generally the higher miles you start to see wear and tear or other problems... id didnt actually mean they were the same...

cheers
 
My 15 year old Landrover with 155k on the clock just flew through its mot yesterday.
My wife's 4 year old fiesta with 18k on the clock failed...

It's not all about miles, it's about how it's looked after. I spend thousands maintaining my Landrover, doing what work it needs and work it doesn't, my wife just drives her fiesta until it breaks, with no work in between or preventative maintainence.

A camera owned by a enthusiast that's been well used, but also well looked after would be more preferable than a camera that's barely been used but not looked after.
 
KIPAX said:
You cant compare cars millage with shutter count. it doesnt work the same..... a shutter can pack up at 1 thousand or 100 thousand.. the shutter figure the company gives is just a guideline.. if the shutter packs up while in warranty they will replace but only if below the guide count..

Obviously a body shot half a million times compared to 10 thousand times wil ahve a bigger impact.. but other than that I really wouldnt get too hung up about shutter counts :)
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But statistically it's far more likely to pack up at 100 000 than at 1000, so it's still an important factor in choosing a second hand body.

Would you want to pay the same for a 1000 click camera as a 100 000 click camera?
 
Shutters go just like that generally.. no warnign signs... You click to shoot.. everyhting freezes for a few seconds then frees itself but no picture.... Had a few go in my time.... once accidently turned the timer on my new camera.. was nearly crying as i thought shutter had gone haha
 
Dave1 said:
But statistically it's far more likely to pack up at 100 000 than at 1000, so it's still an important factor in choosing a second hand body. Would you want to pay the same for a 1000 click camera as a 100 000 click camera?
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isnt that what I said ...in the last line just different numbers... you even quoted it ...
 
It probably doesn't mean very much. You just want to make sure it currently works well at the fastest shutter speeds and that it doesn't / didn't belong to photojournalist, full time wedding shooter (for a long enough time to rack up that scary count) or messy person who throws around their gear, keeps the body without a lens wide open, etc. I.e. use common sense.
 
Jason_Palmer said:
I'm looking at picking up a second hand body, probably a d800. Some have quite low shutter counts which is great - however airing on the side of caution I was wondering if these numbers can be manipulated? If so, how could check and how cautions should i be?

Cheers

J
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I think it's common sense to ask the seller, condition and their answers will say most. If someone said it had light use, pampered and never knocked about yet it had scratches all over it, a big dent or a high shutter count then alarm bells ring. If it's a hobbyist who photographs landscapes the shutter count could be quite low from their use, a pro wedding photographer it's more likely to be around 100k due to the extra use... though how hard a life it's had is probably more important. I would be less inclined to purchase a camera that's been thrown around, used in harsh weather/environments with little/no additional protection.

You can take a JPEG image and put it through various websites to test the shutter count. Ve recently done this for the d800 I have in the classifieds. I tried it on two websites to ensure the count was correct. You can rely on the image file number as it's possible to reset the count to zero. Also its only a 4 digit count so the maximum number it goes to is 9999 before going back around to 0000 again.

The shutter life quoted by the manufacturer is an average life expectancy. Some may early, some may last longer than expected but most will last around the value quoted. You probably hear about the ones that fail early as most cameras probably don't get get enough use to fail (or even reach a high value) and are 'upgraded' before they fail/reach end of life. If you only took 10k every year (possible with a hobbyist) , most cameras would be expected to last on average 15-20 years! Most don't get any where near this.
 
rob-nikon said:
I think it's common sense to ask the seller, condition and their answers will say most. If someone said it had light use, pampered and never knocked about yet it had scratches all over it, a big dent or a high shutter count then alarm bells ring. If it's a hobbyist who photographs landscapes the shutter count could be quite low from their use, a pro wedding photographer it's more likely to be around 100k due to the extra use... though how hard a life it's had is probably more important. I would be less inclined to purchase a camera that's been thrown around, used in harsh weather/environments with little/no additional protection.

You can take a JPEG image and put it through various websites to test the shutter count. Ve recently done this for the d800 I have in the classifieds. I tried it on two websites to ensure the count was correct. You can rely on the image file number as it's possible to reset the count to zero. Also its only a 4 digit count so the maximum number it goes to is 9999 before going back around to 0000 again.

The shutter life quoted by the manufacturer is an average life expectancy. Some may early, some may last longer than expected but most will last around the value quoted. You probably hear about the ones that fail early as most cameras probably don't get get enough use to fail (or even reach a high value) and are 'upgraded' before they fail/reach end of life. If you only took 10k every year (possible with a hobbyist) , most cameras would be expected to last on average 15-20 years! Most don't get any where near this.
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thanks Rob - good info...
 
KIPAX said:
isnt that what I said ...in the last line just different numbers... you even quoted it ...
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Except you were rather convoluted and confusing, you even ended up with a conclusion of:

KIPAX said:
I really wouldnt get too hung up about shutter counts
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When it is something quite important to consider when buying a second hand camera and deciding what you want to pay for it.
 
Jason_Palmer said:
Another question on second hand bodies.... Grey Imports... how do you spot them and what are they exactly?

cheers
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If it's a newish camera the invoice should still be available which would tell you if it is, if it's more than a couple of years old it doesn't really matter.

A grey import is an item that has been imported (or smuggled) into the EU by someone other than the manufacturer and often hasn't had duty or import vat paid. Some manufacturers will not work on grey imports without proof of the duty/vat having been paid.

Some grey imports have different model numbers (like the lower end Canon bodies), you could of course query the serial number with the manufacturer if you really wanted to have confirmation.
 
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twist said:
Used cameras have no warranty unless provided by a dealer.
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Not really true in the real world, most sales of cameras with warranty on forums are sold with the understanding that the seller will help with warranty issues for the balance of the warranty if required.

Often, if the buyer has the original receipt this isn't even needed as the retailers only require their proof of purchase to cover a warranty issue and don't even ask if the person presenting the item for warranty work is the second owner.
 
Dave1 said:
Not really true in the real world, most sales of cameras with warranty on forums are sold with the understanding that the seller will help with warranty issues for the balance of the warranty if required.

Often, if the buyer has the original receipt this isn't even needed as the retailers only require their proof of purchase to cover a warranty issue and don't even ask if the person presenting the item for warranty work is the second owner.
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No? The real world exists outside of these classified forums and the same would then apply for a used grey item. A lot of people also dont always agree to playing middleman for warranty.

Often POP from online retailers has the original buyers name and address, guess what happens when that doesnt match the senders details.
 
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Dave1 said:
If it's a newish camera the invoice should still be available which would tell you if it is, if it's more than a couple of years old it doesn't really matter.

A grey import is an item that has been imported (or smuggled) into the EU by someone other than the manufacturer and often hasn't had duty or import vat paid. Some manufacturers will not work on grey imports without proof of the duty/vat having been paid.

Some grey imports have different model numbers (like the lower end Canon bodies), you could of course query the serial number with the manufacturer if you really wanted to have confirmation.
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Good idea - thanks Dave
 
twist said:
A lot of people also dont always agree to playing middleman for warranty.
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Really? Almost every ad in the classifieds that mentions warranty has a bit about helping with warranty claims, I know it doesn't quite fit with your pro-grey attitude, but it definitely does happen.
 
Dave1 said:
Really? Almost every ad in the classifieds that mentions warranty has a bit about helping with warranty claims, I know it doesn't quite fit with your pro-grey attitude, but it definitely does happen.
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Not always, but like I said in my previous reply, same applies to grey sales.

Want to keep preaching and turn this thread into another 'evil' grey import thread?
 
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Dave1 said:
Really? Almost every ad in the classifieds that mentions warranty has a bit about helping with warranty claims, I know it doesn't quite fit with your pro-grey attitude, but it definitely does happen.
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I have seen on some ads quoting assistance with this - weather it happens when it needs to is another question of course....
 
twist said:
Want to keep preaching and turn this thread into another 'evil' grey import thread?
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Why would you want to do that? Surely you can post without turning the thread into anything?

Grey is not evil, but people do need to go into a grey purchase with all the facts, there is nothing wrong with buying grey if the law is complied with and the buyer realises the possible pros and cons, however, smuggling the goods in from a Hong Kong retailer is definitely immoral (I don't know why you would describe it as evil, it's a strange choice of word) and illegal, it's up to each individual to decide on their own morals and whether they wish to be law abiding or not.
 
does this also count as illegal if you buy whilst on holiday?... i dont want to be coming back as Dr Evil ha ha ;)
 
Dave1 said:
Why would you want to do that? Surely you can post without turning the thread into anything?

Grey is not evil, but people do need to go into a grey purchase with all the facts, there is nothing wrong with buying grey if the law is complied with and the buyer realises the possible pros and cons, however, smuggling the goods in from a Hong Kong retailer is definitely immoral (I don't know why you would describe it as evil, it's a strange choice of word) and illegal, it's up to each individual to decide on their own morals and whether they wish to be law abiding or not.
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Which I have done. I wont turn it into anything, its the way these threads turn with the usual members going round in circles with the same old posts. Have a look at my post history if you like because Im not one of them.

Preaching / Evil, get it?

The facts are as I put them, the cameras come from the same factory and the OP cant assume any warranty with a used camera unless provided by a dealer, unless you will 100% guarantee that whoever he buys from privately will stand by their commitment? You also said that the receipt is enough to make a warranty claim, well that isnt true in all cases but I can see you chose only to pick out certain parts of my posts. What you really wanted was to make your point (again) about the morals of grey imports etc etc etc. which you are of course entitled to do.

You jumped to the conclusion that Im pro grey simply because I stated the facts. TBH I really dont care where people source their equipment from.
 
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