450D owner looking to upgrade, need suggestions

Jwar1976

Jwar1976

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Name
John
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Hi all,

I have had a 450D now for almost 2 years and have loved it, however last night when I done some band shots, I found a lot of flaws with the limited ISO on the 450D. If I used the 18-55, the pictures either came out pitch black at 1600 ISO, or I had a extremely large shutter lag between taking the picture & the picture showing on the screen, the picture then was so badly out of focus that there was nothing I could do to improve it, regardless of what F Stop I used. When I used the 50mm to take the shots, they were greatly improved but still extremely dark.

One of the shots before I put it through Lightroom, to add exposure and toning.

IMG_3594 by JWAR1976, on Flickr

I was wondering if it was worth me upgrading to something like a 1100D or 550D etc to get a better ISO rage for subjects where I cannot use flash ?. I haven't included the 40D / 50D, as I am really not that keen on the CF format & would prefer to use SD.

Many Thanks

John
 
Jwar1976 said:
Hi all,

I have had a 450D now for almost 2 years and have loved it, however last night when I done some band shots, I found a lot of flaws with the limited ISO on the 450D. If I used the 18-55, the pictures either came out pitch black at 1600 ISO, or I had a extremely large shutter lag between taking the picture & the picture showing on the screen, the picture then was so badly out of focus that there was nothing I could do to improve it, regardless of what F Stop I used. When I used the 50mm to take the shots, they were greatly improved but still extremely dark.

One of the shots before I put it through Lightroom, to add exposure and toning.

IMG_3594 by JWAR1976, on Flickr

I was wondering if it was worth me upgrading to something like a 1100D or 550D etc to get a better ISO rage for subjects where I cannot use flash ?. I haven't included the 40D / 50D, as I am really not that keen on the CF format & would prefer to use SD.

Many Thanks

John
Click to expand...

What budget do you have in mind? Gather your looking at second hand depending what you have I would suggest trying to stretch to a 60d, these use sd card..

To be honest I would avoid the 1100/1200 series, you will only want to upgrade again soon

Again depending how much of this type of photography you plan on doing I would suggest you look at a lens upgrade.
 
Jwar1976 said:
Hi all,

I have had a 450D now for almost 2 years and have loved it, however last night when I done some band shots, I found a lot of flaws with the limited ISO on the 450D. If I used the 18-55, the pictures either came out pitch black at 1600 ISO, or I had a extremely large shutter lag between taking the picture & the picture showing on the screen, the picture then was so badly out of focus that there was nothing I could do to improve it, regardless of what F Stop I used. When I used the 50mm to take the shots, they were greatly improved but still extremely dark.

I was wondering if it was worth me upgrading to something like a 1100D or 550D etc to get a better ISO rage for subjects where I cannot use flash ?. I haven't included the 40D / 50D, as I am really not that keen on the CF format & would prefer to use SD.
Click to expand...

Without appearing rude.... do you know about exposure and the relationship between shutter speed, aperture and ISO?

I ask because.... I think that rather than being out of focus your shots are actually suffering from too long a shutter speed resulting in both camera and subject movement creating a blurry image.

I can understand the issues you're having with a f3.5-5.6 kit zoom but with a 50mm (f1.8 is it?) I'd have thought you should be able to get something at 1600 and f1.8?

Sorry if you are experienced and know all about exposure and if that's the case and ISO 1600 and f1.8 just wont cut it... it's time for a new camera as faster than f1.8 with the same camera and still being stuck at ISO 1600 may not be a sensible option. :D
 
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simonm8 said:
What budget do you have in mind? Gather your looking at second hand depending what you have I would suggest trying to stretch to a 60d, these use sd card..

To be honest I would avoid the 1100/1200 series, you will only want to upgrade again soon

Again depending how much of this type of photography you plan on doing I would suggest you look at a lens upgrade.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip with the 60D will keep that in mind. I was looking at the used Cameras at WEX as they are local to me, so around the £200 mark I would say would be a rough budget, by all means if I am in no rush, then I can save for a superior model, but would need a balaclava to get a full frame. :D

LeeRatters said:
I'm not up on spec with Canon's latest offerings but it sounds like you need more ISO or faster lenses ;)
Click to expand...

Yes I was thinking the same either ISO or a faster lens for really dark environments that don't allow flash.

woof woof said:
Without appearing rude.... do you know about exposure and the relationship between shutter speed, aperture and ISO?

I ask because.... I think that rather than being out of focus your shots are actually suffering from too long a shutter speed resulting in both camera and subject movement creating a blurry image.

I can understand the issues you're having with a f3.5-5.6 kit zoom but with a 50mm (f1.8 is it?) I'd have thought you should be able to get something at 1600 and f1.8?

Sorry if you are experienced and know all about exposure and if that's the case and ISO 1600 and f1.8 just wont cut it... it's time for a new camera as faster than f1.8 with the same camera and still being stuck at ISO 1600 may not be a sensible option. :D
Click to expand...

I am quite embarrassed to admit this after taking using a DSLR for almost 2yrs, but no I have no idea about the relationship between shutter speed, aperture & ISO, I have seen triangle pictures giving brief explanations, but I still got confused. :oops: :$. The pictures in the link below were all taken with the 50mm at F1.8 & F2.8, the darker ones were when the band were performing to the public, but the slightly lighter ones where the band are not dressed up, were taken in a slightly brighter light as they were rehearsing.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/123892097@N03/sets/72157651106590354
 
I think that before you jump in and buy something you need to be sure that you can't do what you want with your current camera. It may be that you can't and that you'll need a new camera... but lets be sure first :D

If you were shooting at ISO 1600 and f1.8 that's as much as you can do with those settings but that still leaves shutter speed. You'll need a shutter speed which is fast enough to give a reasonably bright image and not too much blur, so maybe something between 1/50 to 1/100 if you are lucky and depending upon the lighting, but your camera may or may not have selected the shutter speed depending upon what exposure mode you were in, so... what exposure mode was your camera set to?

Full Auto, Program Mode, Aperture Priority, Shutter Priority or maybe something else?

I can't see the exif information on your pictures but if you post a picture here with exif or do a right click on them and go to "Properties" and then "Details" you should be able to tell us what the exposure mode was and what the shutter speed, ISO and Aperture were set to.

As I said, you may well need a new camera with higher ISO settings available but checking everything first costs nothing and has a slim chance of helping :D
 
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woof woof said:
Without appearing rude.... do you know about exposure and the relationship between shutter speed, aperture and ISO?

I ask because.... I think that rather than being out of focus your shots are actually suffering from too long a shutter speed resulting in both camera and subject movement creating a blurry image. :D
Click to expand...

At 1/320th camera shake really should not be an issue with a 50mm lens, but I really don't know the OPs camera holding technique. Arms outstretched iPhone style viewing the screen is a no no and a quick search for holding a camera http://digital-photography-school.com/how-to-avoid-camera-shake/ (Technique 5 is a great one for a gig), will deal with this for starters.

No idea on the exposure triangle....

DON'T buy a new camera, go and read up on the relationship between the three vital elements in a bookshop near you (WHS/Waterstones etc etc) or even buy a little book such as one of Scott Kelby's The Digital Photography Book https://wordery.com/the-digital-photography-book-pt-1-scott-kelby-9780321934949

There are now five in the series, but unless there is currently an offer on all five together, start with No. 1 and work your way through. (Ignore his quirky style of writing and you will soon start to pick up the basics).

Alternatively there is loads of good explanation about exposure, apertures and ISO here for free:-

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-exposure.htm

Once you have followed those to the letter, only then think about new cameras and lenses.

Don't assume that new kit will get you better pictures until you have the basic understanding right; gear acquisition syndrome is a serious and debilitating (to your bank account) disease around here and many have it.

Sorry if that all sounds a bit condescending but it is not meant to be.

HTH
 
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woof woof said:
I think that before you jump in and buy something you need to be sure that you can't do what you want with your current camera. It may be that you can't and that you'll need a new camera... but lets be sure first :D

If you were shooting at ISO 1600 and f1.8 that's as much as you can do with those settings but that still leaves shutter speed. You'll need a shutter speed which is fast enough to give a reasonably bright image and not too much blur, so maybe something between 1/50 to 1/100 if you are lucky and depending upon the lighting, but your camera may or may not have selected the shutter speed depending upon what exposure mode you were in, so... what exposure mode was your camera set to?

Full Auto, Program Mode, Aperture Priority, Shutter Priority or maybe something else?

I can't see the exif information on your pictures but if you post a picture here with exif or do a right click on them and go to "Properties" and then "Details" you should be able to tell us what the exposure mode was and what the shutter speed, ISO and Aperture were set to.

As I said, you may well need a new camera with higher ISO settings available but checking everything first costs nothing and has a slim chance of helping :D
Click to expand...

Hi Alan,

I normally shoot with Aperture Priority set for Zoo shots, I have never dealt with people due to not being able to get enough victims, I mean people willing to be shot, so I figured a band would be ideal I know that shooting a group of people straight off is kinda jumping straight into the fire, but I really wanted to start shooting people, so had to start somewhere. Anyhow these shots were taken in Manual for the first time ever with spot metering and AI Servo mode, I wasn't sure how energetic the bad were going to be, so I stuck the camera into AI Servo mode in case I needed to track them quite a bit.

shreds said:
At 1/320th camera shake really should not be an issue with a 50mm lens, but I really don't know the OPs camera holding technique. Arms outstretched iPhone style viewing the screen is a no no and a quick search for holding a camera http://digital-photography-school.com/how-to-avoid-camera-shake/ (Technique 5 is a great one for a gig), will deal with this for starters.

No idea on the exposure triangle....

DON'T buy a new camera, go and read up on the relationship between the three vital elements in a bookshop near you (WHS/Waterstones etc etc) or even buy a little book such as one of Scott Kelby's The Digital Photography Book https://wordery.com/the-digital-photography-book-pt-1-scott-kelby-9780321934949

There are now five in the series, but unless there is currently an offer on all five together, start with No. 1 and work your way through. (Ignore his quirky style of writing and you will soon start to pick up the basics).

Alternatively there is loads of good explanation about exposure, apertures and ISO here for free:-

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-exposure.htm

Once you have followed those to the letter, only then think about new cameras and lenses.

Don't assume that new kit will get you better pictures until you have the basic understanding right; gear acquisition syndrome is a serious and debilitating (to your bank account) disease around here and many have it.

Sorry if that all sounds a bit condescending but it is not meant to be.

HTH
Click to expand...

I hold the camera close to me with one hand on the base and the other on the lens. Unfortunately due to a neurological condition I do suffer from shakes time to time, so always try to hold the camera as steady as possible. Thank you ever so much for providing the links for the tips and also for the books, I will take a look at those as really should learn to improve :).

I will also admit that I did checkout some other peoples shots at that venue, in the hope that I would get an idea of rough settings used. As you will see there are some crystal clear shots that others have taken, but also it isn't the brightest of venues

https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=the owl sanctuary norwich

Yes the gear acquisition syndrome is something that I have suffered from for many years, even before getting into photography as I have always kinda been a gadget whore, regardless of the thing I have bought, so not condescending at all :D
 
About the exposure triangle thing and sorry if you know all this already...

When taking pictures it might be best to try and make sure that the little cursor on the exposure scale (at the bottom of your viewfinder as you look though it) is pretty much in the middle. As you adjust the ISO, the shutter speed and/or the aperture (f number) you'll see the cursor move one way or the other and you need to adjust one of the other settings to get it back in the middle.

If you get to the point where you are at ISO 1600 and f1.8 and you can't get a decent shutter speed (and I'd suggest that you'll need at least 1/60 to 1/100 and ideally faster) then it's time to reach for your wallet and treat yourself to a camera with higher ISO settings. You could go for a 17-50mm f2.8 zoom but although this would give better low light performance than your 18-50mm f3.5-5.6 it wont be as good as your 50mm f1.8 and going for a lens with a wider aperture than f1.8 will be expensive whilst IMVHO not helping a great deal.

Also when shooting at f1.8 be sure to give your camera and lens as much chance of achieving focus as possible by aiming at something that it can get a good focus lock on as at these wide apertures slight focus issues are more common.

Good luck with it and I hope that you'll report back on what you decide to do :D
 
As a very general rule I tend to use spot metering, or multi metering, focus point on the subjects eye closest to camera and vary the ISO whilst in manual mode.

Always a challenge but that is half the fun too.

Outdoor festivals are the easiest and usually the best lit for obvious reasons.

I also rarely stay in the same spot all concert. Otherwise it becomes a bit samey
 
Hi John

For gigs, you need to use manual control of shutter speed IMHO as the highly variable lighting can play tricks with metering modes.

If you are not getting decent images at iso1600 and f1.8 then the light levels must be really low and you you definitely need a decent full frame body to get useble higher iso shots. Used 5D2 or 6D ? I would go for the latter.

Good luck !

Gary
 
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gary43 said:
Hi John

For gigs, you need to use manual control of shutter speed IMHO as the highly variable lighting can play tricks with metering modes.

If you are not getting decent images at iso1600 and f1.8 then the light levels must be really low and you you definitely need a decent full frame body to get useble higher iso shots. Used 5D2 or 6D ? I would go for the latter.

Good luck !

Gary
Click to expand...

I don't think it's so clear cut as that, for example my humble little MFT GX7 gives very acceptable higher ISO pictures. They're not as good as those of my FF A7 but even so the latest MFT and APS-C bodies may very well give the image quality the OP is liking for and even if not IMVHO they're worth looking at before going to the added expense of a FF body.
 
Hi Alan

Sorry, I did not intend to disregard other systems, I just wanted to point to the two obvious Canon bodies to choose from since the OP has Canon lenses. I take inboard that his kit lens will not work on FF I must add but he is obviously happy to use Canon ergonomics etc.....

Personally, I think that Fuji gear works very, very well at high iso but cannot compare against your GX7 since I have never owned one.

Used 5D2 and 6D bodies are not shockingly expensive.
 
Don't mind me, I'm just tight :D even with other peoples money :D

On the general point of full frame is best I'd agree but I think it's always worthwhile looking at the cheaper options first :D
 
Fair points Alan !

My wife is from Yorkshire so I fully understand the "tightness" thing.

Best wishes

Gary
 
woof woof said:
I don't think it's so clear cut as that, for example my humble little MFT GX7 gives very acceptable higher ISO pictures. They're not as good as those of my FF A7 but even so the latest MFT and APS-C bodies may very well give the image quality the OP is liking for and even if not IMVHO they're worth looking at before going to the added expense of a FF body.
Click to expand...

There's simple physics here, The bigger the pixel physically the more light it will gather, so a 20MP FF sensor will capture more light than an 20MP APS-C or 20MP MFT sensor at the same settings. This is why the 6D is such a great sensor in low light, and will probably better the new 50MP Canon 5D-S/R etc. A 6D sensor is approx 4 times the size of a GX7 MFT sensor and is only 4MP more.

I would be happy to shoot higher than 6400ISO in low light conditions on the 6D, and have acceptable images at 12,800 and 25,600, a small amount of post processing often removes most of the noise.

Using the Sony A7 series as an example, you can see how the sensor resolution alters the ISO capability.

A7 24MP ISO up to 6,400 native
A7R 36MP ISO up to 6,400 native
A7S 12MP ISO up to 102,400 native

Bigger Pixels = More Light = Higher ISO Capability
 
Mr Perceptive said:
Bigger Pixels = More Light = Higher ISO Capability
Click to expand...

Yes, yes yes... and I don't think that anyone would argue that MFT or APS-C is ultimately better at high ISO settings than FF but you have to consider image size and how the image is to be viewed and of course what the OP and his chums will be happy with.

For example FF + ISO extreme + big print = better than MFT or APS-C at the same large image size but...
MFT or APS-C + ISO extreme + smallish screen image or smallish print = good enough for many people and many uses :D

...and that's before aperture settings are considered for example close the aperture down a bit when using a FF camera to get more depth of field and raise the ISO a bit to get a higher shutter speed and you start to lose your image quality advantage.

Thinking back to the days when I had a 20D (which may not have been clearly outclassed by the OP's 450D) ISO 1600 and especially 3200 would be considered very poor by todays standards but the much smaller format GX7 is easily useable at these and higher ISO settings and indeed is possibly/arguably a match for my old FF 5D too. Cameras have moved on quite a lot since the days when the OP's 450D was the state of the art and the OP may indeed be happy with the images a more modern APS-C camera may provide at ISO 3200 and even 6400.

Personally I think that the modern APS-C options are at least worth a look before heading off for a "FF" camera.
 
If you are serious about Gig photography then the next 'amateur' stage would be to go for a Canon 6D or Sony A7S, Both of these really deliver in low light and partnered with a suitable f2.8 zoom lens you'll get fantastic results. Obviously there are a number of stepping stones that can be taken to get there.

I accept that some MFT and APS-C CSC cameras can deliver good results, but for consistently great results FF must be way to go.
 
Wow thank you to everyone that has responded, to save quoting every post and using an entire page I will see if I can get everything in. Ian thank you for the metering tip, I will give that a try & see if it improves shots. As for FF, I would love to get a FF camera, but sadly with the little income I am on, it would take me a long time to save. I wouldn't say that I was serious about doing Gig Shots as I want to learn as many aspects to photography as possible, I have a zoom lens for Zoo shots, the standard walkabout kit lens, the Nifty Fifty which can be used for Portraits and in a few days when I get my tubes, I will have a try of basic Macro photography, & today I got myself the 10-18 for wide angle shots. As I haven't got my heart set on any particular area of photography, I just want to progress with a hobby but don't ever intend on turning Pro due to a life long health condition, I just take pictures when I feel that I am able to :).

Today while I was in WEX, I was having a chat to the staff about upgrades & he said that if I wished to progress to a higher ISO camera but without the expense of going FF, then it would be an idea to get something like the 60D as that has a higher ISO & uses the SD format which I am after, but at only about £325 used with a 1yr warranty, he also said to me that they would give me at least £75 for my 450D, should I wish to part exchange that & am unable to sell it on somewhere like Ebay or Gumtree.
 
Jwar1976 said:
...he also said to me that they would give me at least £75 for my 450D, should I wish to part exchange that & am unable to sell it on somewhere like Ebay or Gumtree.
Click to expand...

You could list it in the classifieds here, much better than ebay :D
 
I sold my 450 a few weeks ago in the section on here. £160 but that did include a grip.

Still better than what Wex or similar would have offered.

Probably a bit out of the OP's price range but if you can stretch to a 70D you would see a massive difference between both the 450 and a 60D
 
Harriers9 said:
I sold my 450 a few weeks ago in the section on here. £160 but that did include a grip.

Still better than what Wex or similar would have offered.

Probably a bit out of the OP's price range but if you can stretch to a 70D you would see a massive difference between both the 450 and a 60D
Click to expand...

Yeah the 70D is way out of my price range at almost £600 used on ebay. The 60D wouldn't be so bad to save for, especially if I get a £100 for the 450D :)
 
Surely the OP just needs to reduce the shutter speed by a stop or two? Should still get decent, bright images at 1/80th second with the 50/1.8 and iso 1600? The 450D has an extended iso 3200 setting hidden in the menus too doesn't it? 1/320th second is way too short an exposure in that sort of lighting at iso 1600.
 
manualfocus-g said:
Surely the OP just needs to reduce the shutter speed by a stop or two? Should still get decent, bright images at 1/80th second with the 50/1.8 and iso 1600? The 450D has an extended iso 3200 setting hidden in the menus too doesn't it? 1/320th second is way too short an exposure in that sort of lighting at iso 1600.
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No need to guestimate the settings when the camera has an exposure meter and a nice little cursor dancing about from left to right and back as you change the settings.
 
woof woof said:
No need to guestimate the settings when the camera has an exposure meter and a nice little cursor dancing about from left to right and back as you change the settings.
Click to expand...

In the main, yes, but when shooting gigs I usually chimp a bit and then dial the settings into manual mode, which often results in settings like I posted. Reason for this is the weird variable lighting you tend to get.
 
manualfocus-g said:
Surely the OP just needs to reduce the shutter speed by a stop or two? Should still get decent, bright images at 1/80th second with the 50/1.8 and iso 1600? The 450D has an extended iso 3200 setting hidden in the menus too doesn't it? 1/320th second is way too short an exposure in that sort of lighting at iso 1600.
Click to expand...

Next time I go to a gig with my camera I will have a try of reducing the shutter speed, I honesty thought that a faster shutter speed would be needed, so that say the guitarists hands wasn't blurred when playing. I had a look and couldn't find the 3200 setting, the only thing I could find was Highlight tone priority & Auto Lighting Optimizer & noise reduction in high ISO

woof woof said:
No need to guestimate the settings when the camera has an exposure meter and a nice little cursor dancing about from left to right and back as you change the settings.
Click to expand...

Yes the exposure meter does come in handy

manualfocus-g said:
In the main, yes, but when shooting gigs I usually chimp a bit and then dial the settings into manual mode, which often results in settings like I posted. Reason for this is the weird variable lighting you tend to get.
Click to expand...

I have only very recently dared to go into manual mode, and the more I get used to it, the better it should work for me.....In theory :D
 
sorry but there seems to be alot of gas in this thread when i think more should be looked at the ops current setup , settings and the venue itself.
first off a dark venue no flash so just the stages ambient light.
second the lens.. 50mm 1.8mm really dont see much wrong with using that lens. sure its not the sharpest lens out there but even so there shouldnt be any major issues using it, expecially if stepped down a stop images should be nice and sharp.
looking at the images ont he ops flickr link the images arent overly dark considering the venue so not sure what was expected.
certainly the shutter speed could have been dropped down 1/320th on a 50mm handheld gives a fair bit of leeway and could easily have dropped to 400-800 ISO and a shutter speed around 160th of sec or even 1/80th sec. this would have given more light and less noise and still be fast enough for handheld shooting.

also make sure you are shooting in RAW, ignore the highlight tone priority, and lighting optimizer ( if i recall these have zero bearing on shooting RAW anyway and are for shooting jpegs ).
Maybe if i was to make a change it may be for something like the 85mm f/18 lens instead just to get a little closer..( or take a few steps forward if possible )
but i certainly see no reason to change your kit , as i think the problem isnt kit its simply technique and camera settings that are the problems that need to be resolved first.
 
The other tip is to watch the strobing of the ligting and catch your subject whilst they are lit.

Oh and don't discount black and white

IMG_0748_2-328-800-600-80.jpg
 
Just to be different how about an EOS M from Argos....?

I took this one a while back

 
yup ya cant beat making the most of the ambient stage lighting. these two of mine taken with a canon 70-200 F/4 L ( sharp but certainly not the fastest and not the IS version )

9092133477_66770f2739_b.jpg


9094356088_78a04cd977_b.jpg
 
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