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joescrivens
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7d, landscapes and portraits taboo
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joescrivens
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Woot!We got there at last! Spot on, badger. See? The 40D etc had very little to do with it after all
lol, well they still do to me, because my original question is why aren't these compared to the 5d when it comes to portrait and landscape and the answer you have both given makes sense:
The 7D isn't compared to the 20D/30D/40D/450D etc as they are all half the price
the 7d has just come out
the 7d is considered a semi-pro/pro camera
see you were answering my q without even realising
grumpybadger
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And one final bit - Joe, I'd sit tight for now. I'm hoping the 5DIII has the 7D AF and a flash squeezed in as well. Then I may jump back to FF again...
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indeed! wonder what kind of price point we'll be at
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see you were answering my q without even realising
Joe, my whole intention was to answer your initial question, which was entirely to do with why the 7D is compared unfavourably with the 5DII for portraits/landscape stuff, whilst other APS-C bodies don't seem to be compared in such a way; you didn't actually ask in what ways the 7D could be compared positively to 5DII (although grumps answered the 7D/5DII comparison bit more than adequately), and by answering this initial question of yours I tried to point out what little relevance it bore to the question you really had on your mind, namely, is the 7D really that much worse at portrature/landscapes than the 5DII:Anyway Joe, there's nowt wrong with thinking about the pros and cons of the 7D when compared to the 5DII, but what they have to do with the 50D, 40D, 450D, 500D etc I don't know; I mean, even if we confirm that the 7D is 100 times better than all those other crop sensor bodies put together, is that really going to stop you from hankering after a 5DII???
Anyway, I hope they pull their fingers out and bring out the 5DMk3 by the end of the year; will make the Mk2's price plummet, and then I'll snap one up!
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If you have the 'eye' for what makes a good landscape shot you will take a great picture with either. Look at the technology of yester year if you at all concerned, didnt stop photographers then,if you are creative you could probably get away with a point and poke and a little PP lol,i think we are just spoiled for choice.
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I suppose people don't think the 7D is a portrait/landscape camera because canon choose to put 18mp on an APS-C chip which (from what I've seen) is far too much. images are soft because of NR and then sharpening introduces jaggy artifacts. Had they incorporated the current sensor technology with less MP it would have produced better quality images.
The is how ever nothing to say you can't shoot portraits or landscapes with the 7D its just the 5D2 does it better just like the 7D has a more capable focusing system than the 5D2 for action.
Personally I think the 40D was the best crop camera made by canon to date. well priced and a good mix of functions with IQ better than that of the 50D and 7D.
The is how ever nothing to say you can't shoot portraits or landscapes with the 7D its just the 5D2 does it better just like the 7D has a more capable focusing system than the 5D2 for action.
Personally I think the 40D was the best crop camera made by canon to date. well priced and a good mix of functions with IQ better than that of the 50D and 7D.
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Is that right 40D has better IQ than the 7D ?
I have a 40D and am well pleased with it but will eventually upgrade to a 7D because of the ability to crop
I understood that the 40D was better for noise at lower ISO on screen images but when the images were printed the noise disapears anyway and the 7D shots show more detail
Pete
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joescrivens
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I've never had a 40d so I can't compare, perhaps someone with both could. I think no body would disagree with POAH that the 5d produces better quality images for portrait and landscape, but not for the reasons POAH suggests.
The 5d is better because of the increased dynamic range the full frame sensor offers. Unless you consider the following images are soft and/or have jaggy artifacts
woof woof
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I'm confused by the 7D pictures I've seen.
Some on the net seem to have a very unpleasing "look" to them and there are many with high levels of noise, particularly in the background. Others seem to have been processed waaaaaaaay beyond the point at which I'd be screaming STOP!!!
But then again some 7D images look great.
I suppose that the only way to be sure is to try a 7D and see if it suits me and that should be the same for others too and if anyone thinks that a 7D is fantastic for landscape and portrait work and their results back up their opinion that's the proof.
Some on the net seem to have a very unpleasing "look" to them and there are many with high levels of noise, particularly in the background. Others seem to have been processed waaaaaaaay beyond the point at which I'd be screaming STOP!!!
But then again some 7D images look great.
I suppose that the only way to be sure is to try a 7D and see if it suits me and that should be the same for others too and if anyone thinks that a 7D is fantastic for landscape and portrait work and their results back up their opinion that's the proof.
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joescrivens
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I don't know where this noise issue has come from to be honest, I've not seen the noise problems that some people report, I know there was one user on here who sent their 7d back due to the noise and it seemed to be a fault, perhaps those people who have noise issues also have this fault but just assume its normal for the 7d
woof woof
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There are plenty of both amateur and professional images on the net. As I'm a bit of a gear fan I've read reviews and threads on the usual sites but I haven't gone hunting to obscure sites. Links and reviews from the Northlite Images site show a whole range of images from great to what I think are simply awful.
I do realise though what I see as the extreme and very unattractive over processing of some shots is just a personal taste thing. Mostly I like a more natural looking result but some would say that some of my pictures are flat and boring but if that's what the scene and lighting was then that's what I'd probably be aiming to capture.
I do realise though what I see as the extreme and very unattractive over processing of some shots is just a personal taste thing. Mostly I like a more natural looking result but some would say that some of my pictures are flat and boring but if that's what the scene and lighting was then that's what I'd probably be aiming to capture.
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jaggy lines only comes from oversharpening anyway, no?
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I agree with that 100%.
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99% of anything floating around on the internet is poorly conceived rubbish. This is due, of course, to there being no universal filter that selects and advocates only the best examples of pictures, commentary, opinion, etc for publication on the web. Therefore, you will get plenty of images taken by novices (and some pros) that are no better than camera-phone snaps even from the best cameras (and no, calling them 'ironic' doesn't save them!). But, from those same cameras, you're likely to find amazing stuff also. This is one of the pitfalls of over-researching on the internet; it is very hard to make an objective critical appraisal with the over-abundance of poor data available. Not least the huge amount of meandering threads like this, which start out with one specific question, but end up evolving into a series of very loosely related comments that, for anybody looking for specific information, would probably leave them even more confused than when they started!
The only real way of knowing whether a particular body or camera is right for you is to get out there using it; If comments by other users (too often not even based on their own experience) are enough to make you question your choice of equipment, more so than your own experimentation with the kit you've got, then you may never end up with the set-up that really suits you. Joe, are you really disappointed with the baby pictures you've posted here? Do you find them lacking? I don't think you do. I just think you've got gear lust, and are just looking for an excuse for another upgrade. Shame, coz I think cameras like the 7D (or the 40D and 50D even) are sophisticated enough to outclass even some professionals, so when you get amateurs declaring within months of buying their latest body that they need to upgrade to something bigger and better due to the need for increased dynamic range, blah blah, I think they should spend a bit more of their time and energy really learning the craft of photography and pushing themselves and their equipment to the limit, than taking - and pixel-peeping at - endless test shots of dog turds and the like (saw a test shot of exactly that, to my horror, on the POTN forum earlier this month
) 
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Do not pay so much attention on reviews and other people's photos and most importantly bare in mind that the lens is going to play a more important role at the end on the results than the body.
In comparison I have been using an 1DsII with the Canon 17-40 L for landscapes and after changing to the 7D (for wildlife purposes) I do not see any disadvantages in using the crop body with the Tokina 11-16 to the 1DsII+17-40 combo.
In comparison I have been using an 1DsII with the Canon 17-40 L for landscapes and after changing to the 7D (for wildlife purposes) I do not see any disadvantages in using the crop body with the Tokina 11-16 to the 1DsII+17-40 combo.
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joescrivens
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Joe, are you really disappointed with the baby pictures you've posted here? Do you find them lacking? I don't think you do. I just think you've got gear lust, and are just looking for an excuse for another upgrade. Shame, coz I think cameras like the 7D (or the 40D and 50D even) are sophisticated enough to outclass even some professionals, so when you get amateurs declaring within months of buying their latest body that they need to upgrade to something bigger and better due to the need for increased dynamic range, blah blah, I think they should spend a bit more of their time and energy really learning the craft of photography and pushing themselves and their equipment to the limit, than taking - and pixel-peeping at - endless test shots of dog turds and the like (saw a test shot of exactly that, to my horror, on the POTN forum earlier this month
No I'm not disappointed at them at all. I do have gear lust for sure, it's a case of the three things I use my camera for are:
portrait
landscape
video
Now that the 5d has 24p video it's made me question whether I have the right camera, since we can all agree that the 5d does all three of those things better. The parts of the 7d that make it really useful, I don't take advantage of ... that's all.
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Wow, this thread really did go off at a tangent! 
I guess the comparison comes simply from the fact that the 7D is in many ways, a far superior camera. In terms of outright image quality though, I'd be very disappointed if the 5DMKII wasn't better.
Personally, I find the 7D to be very 'unforgiving'... Get your exposures right and you're rewarded with incredibly detailed and high quality images. Screw it up however and all those so-called 'problems' that have been reported will surface - especially with regard to noise.
Si
I guess the comparison comes simply from the fact that the 7D is in many ways, a far superior camera. In terms of outright image quality though, I'd be very disappointed if the 5DMKII wasn't better.
Personally, I find the 7D to be very 'unforgiving'... Get your exposures right and you're rewarded with incredibly detailed and high quality images. Screw it up however and all those so-called 'problems' that have been reported will surface - especially with regard to noise.
Si
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joescrivens
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Wow, this thread really did go off at a tangent!
I guess the comparison comes simply from the fact that the 7D is in many ways, a far superior camera. In terms of outright image quality though, I'd be very disappointed if the 5DMKII wasn't better.
Personally, I find the 7D to be very 'unforgiving'... Get your exposures right and you're rewarded with incredibly detailed and high quality images. Screw it up however and all those so-called 'problems' that have been reported will surface - especially with regard to noise.
Si
Si, I notice you have a 7d and a 40d, perhaps you could comment on POAH assessment of which has the better IQ and is the better camera?
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If you're not disappointed at all, why are you questioning whether you have the 'right' camera?
Admitting that you've got gear lust is admirable of you, but you need to separate what you desire from what you really need, The real question is, Joe, are you going to be able to do those three things (portrait, landscape, video) any better than you can with your 7D just because you gone and spent more money on a more expensive camera?
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Same could be said of the 50D too, and I think too many users of both cameras don't take the effort to really master them before deciding that their so-so results must be due to the need for a more expensive camera! :bonk:
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If you're not disappointed at all, why are you questioning whether you have the 'right' camera?
I think that I'll be able to do the exact same thing but the result will be better, in this instance just because there is more dynamic range. So when you jump from an aps-c sensor to a full frame sensor and take the exact same photo with exactly the same level of skill the result should be that the clarity, colour of the photo with the full frame sensor would be better.
Correct me if I'm wrong though because that's just my understanding
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In all honesty, I think that the real answer to the OP's original question is that the 7D is the latest thing in high density crop sensors from Canon, pushing the boundaries even further than they have before, and for this reason I think it's treated with the mistrust which until recently was reserved for the 50D, which now appears to be gaining acceptance compared to the 7D.
People just don't seem to accept that sensor technology is moving forward and considerations which applied even a couple of short years ago with regard to pixel density have changed, and will change even more dramatically in the near future no doubt.
The advantages of the 7D far outweigh the disadvantages for those who need it and those are the people who will appreciate it. All too often we hear opinion from people who wished it had less pixels or a full frame sensor, missing the point entirely, or trotting out some opinion they've read on a web site or review done by a reviewer who doesn't 'get' the purpose of the camera either becauuse it isn't aimed at them.
Of course the 7D is capable of high quality landscape, wedding and portrait work, but if you want to specialise in those fields you go full frame and get the camera for the job. If on the other hand you're looking for an all round camera to tackle wildlife, weddings, portraits and everything else, the 7D should fill the bill nicely.
People just don't seem to accept that sensor technology is moving forward and considerations which applied even a couple of short years ago with regard to pixel density have changed, and will change even more dramatically in the near future no doubt.
The advantages of the 7D far outweigh the disadvantages for those who need it and those are the people who will appreciate it. All too often we hear opinion from people who wished it had less pixels or a full frame sensor, missing the point entirely, or trotting out some opinion they've read on a web site or review done by a reviewer who doesn't 'get' the purpose of the camera either becauuse it isn't aimed at them.
Of course the 7D is capable of high quality landscape, wedding and portrait work, but if you want to specialise in those fields you go full frame and get the camera for the job. If on the other hand you're looking for an all round camera to tackle wildlife, weddings, portraits and everything else, the 7D should fill the bill nicely.
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the main problem i have with the 7D is it makes my bank balance hate me as you HAVE to have top quality glass or it really shows up with the high resolution, and that you also can't get away with missing the focus even slightly.
that said however i love mine and have not had an issue using it for landscapes/portrature, just don't stop it down too much past f/12 or if you can avoid if f/8
that said however i love mine and have not had an issue using it for landscapes/portrature, just don't stop it down too much past f/12 or if you can avoid if f/8
woof woof
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"The advantages of the 7D far outweigh the disadvantages for those who need it..."
I'd agree with that but those who have different priorities or who for whatever (and possibly misguided) reason don't want what they see as too high a mp count camera have no Canon upgrade path.
Even though I like camera gear I think that we sometimes get too worked up about it. We should maybe take a colder look and see the gear less as objects of desire and more as photographic tools. If they do the job, it's job done, regardless of the model number.
I'd agree with that but those who have different priorities or who for whatever (and possibly misguided) reason don't want what they see as too high a mp count camera have no Canon upgrade path.
Even though I like camera gear I think that we sometimes get too worked up about it. We should maybe take a colder look and see the gear less as objects of desire and more as photographic tools. If they do the job, it's job done, regardless of the model number.
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Very well said, CT; was what I was actually saying with:
...but you did it far more eloquently
CT
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Well you don't need to expound that mantra to me - a camera is a tool as far as I'm concerned. I might be in play if we were talking about some cool film camera, but as far as digital cameras go, they're just lumps of plastic, albeit very technologically advanced ones, and they'll date quicker than your dad's demob suit.
I sold a brand new 1DMK2n at a pretty substantial loss when it quickly dawned on me that my 20D was beating it hollow for reach. The 40D, 50D and 7D have only built enormously on that adavantage and that's based on my experience of using those cameras. A 1 Series camera is no object of desire for me for what I mostly do.
The new Canon 1DMk3 however raises the bar a lot for the 1.3X crop format - with 16 million pixels it gains a lot in cropping ability and reach compared to earlier versions. I can certainly see it's attraction for many wildlife photographers as a pretty good all rounder.
As for you having no upgrade path I'm struggling to see your problem - there's the 40D, 50D and 7D, two versions now of the 5D, and that's not counting earlier 1 Series bodies which are becoming very affordable, and the XXXD range. The 40D would be an enormous upgrade on your 20D - without flogging the family silver either.:shrug:
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Thanks - I still have my lucid moments.Very well said, CT; was what I was actually saying with:
...but you did it far more eloquently
woof woof
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I didn't know that the 40D was still in production, it's not on my local camera shops web site, and I not sure that it'd be an "enormous" upgrade to my current camera. Reviews I've read are certainly less than emphatic on it being an enormous leap over the 20D. The 50D has to an extent been subject to the same criticisms the 7D has so I've sat the last three xxD updates out in the hope that the next update will grab me a bit more and be more than the rather predictable bigger screen and more mp's. The 5DII isn't really on my radar at the moment as I've got used to APS-C and it lacks a built in flash which every SLR I've ever owned has to date had. The 1D cameras are simply too big and are also beyond what my conscience would allow me to spend on a camera and I prefer the controls and handling of the xxD line to the xxxD line. So, IMVHO, :shrug::bang:
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I'm pretty sure a 1d2 can be had for roughly the same price as a 50d... correct me if I am wrong but I'm sure I've seen ones going for 600 quid.
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The 40D is no longer in production. You may be able to find one in stock somewhere if you're lucky. Failing that look for a nice used one.
There you go again quoting reviews you've read. I upgraded from a 20D to a 40D and the difference is enormous - more colour saturation (due to the later Digic processor) Greater cropping ability and reach (due to the increase in pixels) better frame rate, hugely improved preview screen and other improvemnnets making it afar better camera
You could see a quantum leap in the quality of images being posted here from everyone who made that upgrade to the 40D at the time.
Read the reviews by all means - I do, but I take them with a large pinch of salt - for every good review you'll always find a bad one.
If you got a procession of users on this board saying they think their 40D is crap, then that would be a different matter entirely, but somehow I don't think you will.
woof woof
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I mentioned reviews as I don't like making reference to individual people. Anyway, reviews and other peoples opinions are just to be considered and I always make my own mind up but I have to think that it's worth my time and effort and so far the updates to Canon's APS-C range haven't grabbed me enough.
I haven't said that I think that Canon's newer APS-C's are crap, they just haven't inspired me to go into town and try one let alone buy one, yet. I live in hope.
I haven't said that I think that Canon's newer APS-C's are crap, they just haven't inspired me to go into town and try one let alone buy one, yet. I live in hope.
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Sorry, I think I am going to offend owners of the 5D MKII's here, but this is my personal experience. I am an electronic engineer by trade and photography is a hobby. I purchased a 5D MK II and regretted it as soon as the "Flaring" issue was found. It's like buying a brand new Porsche and the factory recalls it because there's a "Slight Hiccup in the Engine Management system, it's really not the engine, Honestly". As an engineer, as soon as I heard of the Flaring issue, I couldn't wait to off load the camera. As soon as the 7D came out I dropped the 5D MII like a hot potato ! All Canon did was use smoke and mirrors to cover up an inherrent problem the "Engine" has. They used the FW to "Cover up" the fault. I Guarantee if you take a picture with the original FW and then take the same picture with the "Fixed the F#^$^ng flaring issue" firmware, you will see a large degradation in the picture. I have seen it with my Digital CRO. These type of problems MAY have gotten picked up on earlier models like the 40D, 1D etc BEFORE they released them to the market so consumers NEVER know about problems built into the Cameras, but because they want to beat the opposition, the Sales people try to get the product to market B4 us engineers can iron out all the problems. The time span from development to Retail is getting shorter and shorter to the detrement of the poor consumer. The 5D MKII is a classic example of BEAT Nikon to the market with a more fully featured "Gimmicked" camera. I can just imagine the Engineers pulling their hair out saying "We need another 4 or 5 months testing ! So for me, the MK II was tainted from day one and I couldn't wait to off load it.
I did (Thank goodness) and grabbed 2 x 7D's instead. As for the 1.6 crop factor, I love it. I have all L series Lenses and the pictures I get from the 1.6 factor KILL full frame sensors. Don't forget, the BEST, SHARPEST part of the lens is the centre. By using the smaller CMOS sensor, the image comes from the prime meaty part of the lens rather than the sinewy edges (Excuse the analogy, but I am passionate about this fact). The bonus is a 100 - 400mm becomes a 160 - 640mm. A 16-35mm becomes a 25-56mm, so what ? Move further back or get a 10-22mm ! FF owners, try cropping a picture by 1.6 and closely inspect toward the edges of the photos. Is the focus / Sharpness better ? Is the Chromatic Abberation less ?
It's amazes me when I see people in forums touting "Full Frames" as being the be all and end all and as an Electronics engineer it makes me laugh.
To all the 5D MK II owners I know you are happy with them but have a look at this, it says it all;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ERMu825m4
Need I say more !
I have had / Have the following cameras and the 7D / L Series kills them all;
350D x 2 (Gone) My Rating 7/10
40D x 2 (Gone) My Rating 8/10
50D x 2 (Going Going....) My Rating 7/10
5D MkII (Gone !) My Rating 2/10
1D Mk II (Gone !) My Rating 9/10
1Ds MK II (Gone!) My Rating 8/10
7D x 2(Keepers !) My Rating 10/10
3.9 FPS VS 8FPS..........mmmmmm now which do I prefer, or which do you prefer ?
It's not the camera that take the photo's, it's the person behind the camera.
Simon
I did (Thank goodness) and grabbed 2 x 7D's instead. As for the 1.6 crop factor, I love it. I have all L series Lenses and the pictures I get from the 1.6 factor KILL full frame sensors. Don't forget, the BEST, SHARPEST part of the lens is the centre. By using the smaller CMOS sensor, the image comes from the prime meaty part of the lens rather than the sinewy edges (Excuse the analogy, but I am passionate about this fact). The bonus is a 100 - 400mm becomes a 160 - 640mm. A 16-35mm becomes a 25-56mm, so what ? Move further back or get a 10-22mm ! FF owners, try cropping a picture by 1.6 and closely inspect toward the edges of the photos. Is the focus / Sharpness better ? Is the Chromatic Abberation less ?
It's amazes me when I see people in forums touting "Full Frames" as being the be all and end all and as an Electronics engineer it makes me laugh.
To all the 5D MK II owners I know you are happy with them but have a look at this, it says it all;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ERMu825m4
Need I say more !
I have had / Have the following cameras and the 7D / L Series kills them all;
350D x 2 (Gone) My Rating 7/10
40D x 2 (Gone) My Rating 8/10
50D x 2 (Going Going....) My Rating 7/10
5D MkII (Gone !) My Rating 2/10
1D Mk II (Gone !) My Rating 9/10
1Ds MK II (Gone!) My Rating 8/10
7D x 2(Keepers !) My Rating 10/10
3.9 FPS VS 8FPS..........mmmmmm now which do I prefer, or which do you prefer ?
It's not the camera that take the photo's, it's the person behind the camera.
Simon
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If you got a procession of users on this board saying they think their 40D is crap, then that would be a different matter entirely, but somehow I don't think you will.
He never said the 40D was crap. I also doubt it would be as big a move to go from a 20D to a 40D as say, a 450D to a 40D.
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I am speechless.
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Simon-Australia, reading your post was like watching a Cillit Bang advert
Welcome to the forum, Simon!
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BANG and the 5D's gone