A question of triggering...

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glitch

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I'll apologise in advance if this has been covered before, but I've had a search and couldn't quite find the answer I was looking for.

In a system where you would be using two Canon 580EX II Speedlites off-camera, with one as master and one as slave, what are your options for triggering? Would a radio trigger attached to the camera's hotshoe and then triggering the master set off the slave, or do you need one radio trigger per flash?

The confusion lies in that I often see people buying multiple Cactus triggers for multi-flash set-ups but I've only ever seen people with two Pocket Wizards. I assumed this was due to cost or have I missed something?
 
The 580EX II set as 'master' would set off the other 580EX II set as 'slave' so you would just need a trigger for the master flash.
 
Much obliged to you, Garry.

Do you know how the two flashes 'talk' to each other? Are there any restrictions placed on how close they need to be, the speed they can react, things that can interfere with them, etc?
 
They use Infra Red and the distance is limited, (I'd need to look up Canon's tech specs to be specific) They are not so good outdoors and anything reflective plays havoc. Mark Cleghorn is now offering a good deal on sets of two and three PW's for just this scenario.

Hope that helps.
 
Very helpful indeed, Ali!

Off the top of your head, would you think the distances where triggering problems may ensue would be more in terms of feet or metres?
 
Sometimes it has to do with positioning too glitch, you need to rotate the bodies so the IR sensors on the front can "see" each other and at different heights they can easily go out of each other's zones. Distance wise, I was at a training day today doing just this (so you got me at a good time! lol) the demo we used was indoors and at about 30m the IR was pooped. The PW's have a range of 600m. Spot the difference!
As Gary says though, if you are using two flashes, both at distance, there is a chance that the PWs would communicate fine and if the flashes were not too far apart (I don't think you'd be using two flashes that far apart anyway!) Then one should see the other OK irrelevant to how far away you were. So use the PW's to trigger from you to one flash and have the other pick up using IR.

It is possible. I use a little Wein Peanut which is an optical slave to trigger a second Vivitar and the PW's to do the distance work.

Ooh and I meant to mention, PW's work through windows and walls too :)

Hope that helps.
 
I appreciate your input, Ali. Glad I caught you at such a good time!

My intended application would be for a portable still-life set-up to be used mainly indoors, so distance between the two flashes would probably be much less than the 30m example you mention. I guess the main issue might be one of line-of-sight for the IR sensors but I can't envisage a situation where one would be 'hidden' from the other, although that might be more due to my naivety with off-camera flash than anything else!

Should I get lucky enough to progress on further with my plan I would hopefully be starting to shoot more interiors, so distance between flashes might well become an issue at that point. Admittedly I've got no idea if I'd still be using two heads or if I'd graduate to three, but in either case it's potentially so far off that it's probably not an issue.

Obviously Pocket Wizards are the ultimate trigger to use and you pay for their versatility and reliability, but at the price they are I'm not sure I really want to be investing in three. Two are expensive enough but for what I'm intending to do I really need to be sure that the flashes work when I want them to.

Would a good 'second prize' be something like the Elinchrom Skyports?
 
glitch said:
In a system where you would be using two Canon 580EX II Speedlites off-camera, with one as master and one as slave, what are your options for triggering? Would a radio trigger attached to the camera's hotshoe and then triggering the master set off the slave, or do you need one radio trigger per flash?

The confusion lies in that I often see people buying multiple Cactus triggers for multi-flash set-ups but I've only ever seen people with two Pocket Wizards. I assumed this was due to cost or have I missed something?
Click to expand...

As far as I know, triggering the 'master' flash by radio trigger would not give you control over the 'slave' flash. You could use an ST-E2 to trigger both. This would give full e-TTL function, with control over the balance of the flashes.

Indoors, line of sight is not too much of a problem (given that you're not shooting inside an airship hangar), as the light signals bounce off the walls pretty effectively.

It would be nice if we could get the Radio Popper over here, though.
 
True, the ST-E2 gives you ETTL and you can ratio both flashes from the camera. The PW's are all manual but if you want creative flash it's the way to do it anyway. :)

I do use both, I use the ST-E2 when I want mobile, flash in one hand, camera in the other, on the hoof shooting. I use the PW's for any distance work because they are far more reliable.
 
I'm about to show my total inexperience here, so bear with me, but would the 'option' of having E-TTL for both flashes be worth having, or is the more creative approach, as Ali says, more sensible?

I would guess, albeit naively, that having manual control would probably be a better thing but what benefits would having the option of E-TTL give you? Would people who have the option of E-TTL generally use it or is it relatively restrictive and you might find yourself relying on the manual approach?

I would assume that the majority of my work would involve me setting up the flashes to light the subject and then staying in a relatively 'fixed' position during the shoot, as the subject matter wouldn't really be moving about much, if at all. Should I progress to including interiors and 'action' shots to my repertoire it may then change everything, although I can't say for sure as I don't really know!

mr_pants said:
It would be nice if we could get the Radio Popper over here, though.
Click to expand...
Are these a USA-only thing?
 
glitch said:
I'm about to show my total inexperience here, so bear with me, but would the 'option' of having E-TTL for both flashes be worth having, or is the more creative approach, as Ali says, more sensible?

I would guess, albeit naively, that having manual control would probably be a better thing but what benefits would having the option of E-TTL give you? Would people who have the option of E-TTL generally use it or is it relatively restrictive and you might find yourself relying on the manual approach?

I would assume that the majority of my work would involve me setting up the flashes to light the subject and then staying in a relatively 'fixed' position during the shoot, as the subject matter wouldn't really be moving about much, if at all. Should I progress to including interiors and 'action' shots to my repertoire it may then change everything, although I can't say for sure as I don't really know!

Are these a USA-only thing?
Click to expand...

There are no 'absolutes' about it, but I would venture to suggest that being able to have full e-TTL control would be a good thing. The flashes can be set to manual output and still be triggered by an ST-E2, as I recall, if you want them to. It's just that you can't trigger one flash and get it to trigger a second as a sort of cascade.

The Radio Poppers fit onto the flashes (at least one of them being mounted on-camera as a master) and translate the light signals (I seem to remember reading somewhere that they are not actually IR, but are 'near-IR', although that's not really got much to do with it) into radio signals, so that full e-TTL functionality is retained, yet the shooter benefits from longer working distances and doesn't have to worry about line of sight. I understand that they are US only ATM, due to radio frequency licensing matters. Triggering by light signals, after all, is not subject to such restrictions.
 
mr_pants said:
There are no 'absolutes' about it, but I would venture to suggest that being able to have full e-TTL control would be a good thing. The flashes can be set to manual output and still be triggered by an ST-E2, as I recall, if you want them to. It's just that you can't trigger one flash and get it to trigger a second as a sort of cascade.
Click to expand...
Sounds sensible to me. Can't argue with that at all.

Potentially I could afford a couple of triggers but could also get the ST-E2 for the same money as a single Pocket Wizard or a couple of Skyports. So the $64m question is, what would make for the better investment?

mr_pants said:
I understand that they are US only ATM, due to radio frequency licensing matters. Triggering by light signals, after all, is not subject to such restrictions.
Click to expand...
So would importing them and/or using them in the UK be an issue? Sort of like the problems devices like the iTrip faced when it was initially released over the pond?
 
At the training day today it was a case of NO ETTL. But you are right, there are scenarios where it works a treat. With the camera on Av the flash will attempt to balance with the ambient. At a recent wedding I had a low sun behind a group shot, a receipe for underexposure if ever there was one. Cue 580EX and AV, spot on pics that they love.

The other one that I love is Damien Lovegrove's use of the ST-E2 on a 5D and hand holding a 580ex. There is a video clip on his site as an intro to shooting winter weddings that is worth a look if you want to see what he does with it. :)
 
AliB said:
At the training day today it was a case of NO ETTL. But you are right, there are scenarios where it works a treat. With the camera on Av the flash will attempt to balance with the ambient. At a recent wedding I had a low sun behind a group shot, a receipe for underexposure if ever there was one. Cue 580EX and AV, spot on pics that they love.
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That's a very interesting bit of information there, Ali. Definitely food for thought.

AliB said:
The other one that I love is Damien Lovegrove's use of the ST-E2 on a 5D and hand holding a 580ex. There is a video clip on his site as an intro to shooting winter weddings that is worth a look if you want to see what he does with it. :)
Click to expand...
I don't suppose you happen to have a link handy? I'm not having much joy with Google.
 
Ah, you're a star. No idea why I couldn't find that. I'll have a look when the TMS coverage has finished.

What's your opinion on the ST-E2 v Pocket Wizard/Skyport/etc situation? If you were sat in my shoes, what would you do?

Sorry if that's a rather vague question, given that I haven't really explained what it is I'll be wanting to do with the set-up. I'll be happy to explain in much more detail but I didn't want to waffle on about something that might not have been of much interest.
 
No, please do :)

If you have a specific setup in mind it would make sense to get the right product for you. It could be that the skyport are exactly right for you. I've not used the skyports but cherryrig is our resident expert and has written several reviews on here. (and they are very good too)

What do you have in mind?
 
I'll try and keep it brief, but if I've missed out anything important please just say and I'll do my best to answer the question.

All I'm really interested in is food and drink photography. At the moment I'm using solely natural light and trying to build up a small portfolio but I know that when I start to approach clients I'll need to have not only a more varied portfolio but be able to produce consistent results under all types of lighting conditions, hence the 'need' to invest in some studio lighting.

I had a short discussion with EdTog about his work and he mentioned that he shot most, if not all, the food in the books with a couple of Speedlites and a pair of Pocket Wizards. He's since gone on to Quantums but those are way out of my budget and seeing as I already had a 580EX II 'knocking about' I thought I'd go down that route instead.

I'd like to see myself visiting clients and being able to set-up and shoot on location in restaurants and similar locations and produce pictures of the food (and possibly drinks) but I'd also like to be able to shoot some of the interiors and perhaps get in the kitchens and shoot the chefs at work. I've been told by another professional food photographer that I'm heading in the right direction but need to 'expand' upon my current work and think more about a complete package, hence the desire to shoot more than just plates of food.

My biggest 'problem' is that while I've got a basic understanding of the photography, the food styling and the cooking takes so much effort that trying to build the portfolio has been really hard work. But I think I'm finally getting to the stage where I might be confident enough and producing work that's good enough to approach people who can cook the food and do the styling for me (i.e. restaurants) and leave me to do the photography. But relying solely on natural light would be somewhat foolish, hence the intended 'investment' in some lighting.

I guess I need a system that I know will work, will work well and will also work consistently. I need to know that if I'm given a job by a client that I'll be able to set my equipment up, in a potentially small space, get the shot I need first time and not have to mess around with dodgy triggers or worry about the flashes not working, etc.

EDIT: Sorry, that turned into a rather longer explanation than I'd first intended!
 
OOoh sounds yummy. :)

The distances for the food photography would make IR triggering a breeze, the shots of the chefs at work would suit the ST-E2 and a hand held flash a treat because you would not be getting in the way. The only potential limitation would be interiors. If there is sufficient distance or corners in the way then that could be tricky with IR. With interiors you ideally want to be able to hide the flashes so all you see is the effect rather than a blast of light coming from a flash head. The fact that you are trying to maintain a line of sight for IR (unless it is bouncing around the room) could be the tricky one.

I can quite appreciate you dilemma and I think ultimately either is a compromise, the ETTL and ratio would be great for the food and PW's would be better for interiors. If your priority is the food I'd be tempted by the ST-E2.

Where are you based? I have both and with your extra flash you'd be welcome to try them out.
 
Well, we can but hope! There's a long, long way to go yet but hopefully I'll be able to get a little bit of work here and there and having some form of lighting set-up would allow me to do more work in the evenings.

I guess the best answer is both the ST-E2 and the PWs but it's a big step to make with such little experience with the technology. The premise of the Radio Poppers sounds like it might be a good balance of the two in one, unless I've totally misunderstood how they work, but God only knows when we'll see them and how much they'll cost. I think for now my priority has to be the food as that's what I'm really trying to focus on, if you'll excuse the pun. So perhaps the ST-E2 is the right thing, as you say.

Very kind of you to offer a little demo, Ali. I'm based around J10 of the M4 which, I think, might very well end up to be down the opposite-ish end of the country to you!
 
Shame, I'm oop North but all the very best with your research :)
 
(y)

No problem at all, happy to help anytime I can :)
 
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