A quick question for Canon users

ShawWellPete

ShawWellPete

Messages
3,699
Name
Pete
Edit My Images
Yes
I went to a friend’s house yesterday who is a relative beginner and has a Canon 300D that she has had for a while. On my advice, her husband bought her a nifty fifty, 430Ex and an ST-E2 transmitter so she could play with off camera flash.

I was helping her with it yesterday even though I am not really used to Canons and found something that I was not expecting.

With the flashgun, either on the camera or off the camera on eTTL and the camera on P mode the camera chose a 1/60 sec shutter speed. However when I put it on Aperture Priority the shutter speed was chosen as though the flash wasn’t attached, something like 1/5 sec, I would have expected the camera to chose 1/60 sec.

Any thoughts?

:thinking:
 
Just Dave said:
might have something to do with the Aperture P mode selected :thumbs:
Click to expand...

I didn't explain it properly

In program mode (which I was trying to get her offf using) it set the shutter speed to 1/60 sec which is what I would expect

In AV mode - it sets the shutter speed to correctly expose for ambient WITHOUT the flash

This is not what the D700 would do, is it what you expect the Canon to do?
 
The canon is expecting to set the shutter speed based on its meter reading at the aperture you have set.

The flash would then be used as "fill flash".

If you want to use a set speed, there is a custom function to set the sync speed (not sure what it is called for the 300D at 1 set level.
 
I know exactually what you talking about, it puzzled me for a while but i had put it down to having a jessops flash rather than a canon one.

For some reason although the camera and flash synch both ways in the auto modes they dont in the manual ones, the flash seems to adjust accordingly but the camera acts as if their isnt a flash attached in regards to showing the right exposure.

On the plus side though it gave me another reason to stick it in manual and learn what settings work best in what light without relying on the camera to tell me.
 
mipevo6 said:
The canon is expecting to set the shutter speed based on its meter reading at the aperture you have set.

The flash would then be used as "fill flash".

If you want to use a set speed, there is a custom function to set the sync speed (not sure what it is called for the 300D at 1 set level.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that

studioworks said:
I know exactually what you talking about, it puzzled me for a while but i had put it down to having a jessops flash rather than a canon one.

For some reason although the camera and flash synch both ways in the auto modes they dont in the manual ones, the flash seems to adjust accordingly but the camera acts as if their isnt a flash attached in regards to showing the right exposure.

On the plus side though it gave me another reason to stick it in manual and learn what settings work best in what light without relying on the camera to tell me.
Click to expand...

This is what I told her to do, stick it on Manual, set 1/60 sec and whatever aperture you want. The flash then uses eTTL to correctly expose. I was surprised that AV mode did not change the shutter speed when you attached the flash as my Nikon does.
 
just done an experiment, it selected the same setting, so not sure why, your friends did that :thinking:

Canon 400D

program mode iso 400 1/60 sec app 6.3
AV iso 400 1/60 sec app 6.3

Dave
 
As mipev06 explained, in Av mode, the camera sets the shutter for ambient light and uses the flash to fill. With newer Canon models there's a custom function setting that allows flash to be used as the primary light source in Av mode but, having had a quick look at the manual, it looks as if this isn't available on the 300D. It'll have to be full manual if you want to use aperture control with flash as primary light source.
 
Islander said:
As mipev06 explained, in Av mode, the camera sets the shutter for ambient light and uses the flash to fill. With newer Canon models there's a custom function setting that allows flash to be used as the primary light source in Av mode but, having had a quick look at the manual, it looks as if this isn't available on the 300D. It'll have to be full manual if you want to use aperture control with flash as primary light source.
Click to expand...


Perfect, thanks!
 
Perfectly normal for Canon Pete. In AV mode you can use any shutter speed you like - well from max sync speed downwards anyway, and as long as the flash is set on TTL it will do a pretty good job of adjusting fill flash to blend with the ambient light.
 
CT said:
Perfectly normal for Canon Pete. In AV mode you can use any shutter speed you like - well from max sync speed downwards anyway, and as long as the flash is set on TTL it will do a pretty good job of adjusting fill flash to blend with the ambient light.
Click to expand...

Thanks Cedric, how do you adjust the shutter speed on AV mode then?
 
ShawWellPete said:
Thanks Cedric, how do you adjust the shutter speed on AV mode then?
Click to expand...

av mode sets aperture then the camera sets shutter speed based on metering. you can change the shutter speed using EC. if you want the flash to illuminate the subject use manual exposure on the camera.
 
ShawWellPete said:
Thanks Cedric, how do you adjust the shutter speed on AV mode then?
Click to expand...

You adjust the shutter speed by changing the aperture Pete, and the camera responds by setting a shutter speed which maintains the same exposure value for the ambient light. As long as the flash is on ETTL it will adjust it's output to give fill flash balanced with the ambient light.

Using 'P' out of doors works well for fill flash too (with the flash on ETTL) but it will always select the fastest flash sync speed it can - 1/60th or faster. This is fine out of doors, but as soon as you come inside the camera still maintains that 1/60th sync speed even though the ambient light may be much lower. The result is that the flash now acts as the primary light source, producuing well light foreground figures and a dark room behind them - much the same result you'd get with your typical point ansd shoot with flash.

Using AV will allow you to use slow flash sync for a well expoosed shot of the subjects and the room background, even though the shutter speed might necessitate the use of a tripod to avoid secondary images from the ambient part of the exposure, and even asking the subjects to keep as still as they can for the same reason.

I hope that makes some sort of sense?
 
CT said:
You adjust the shutter speed by changing the aperture Pete, and the camera responds by setting a shutter speed which maintains the same exposure value for the ambient light. As long as the flash is on ETTL it will adjust it's output to give fill flash balanced with the ambient light.

Using 'P' out of doors works well for fill flash too (with the flash on ETTL) but it will always select the fastest flash sync speed it can - 1/60th or faster. This is fine out of doors, but as soon as you come inside the camera still maintains that 1/60th sync speed even though the ambient light may be much lower. The result is that the flash now acts as the primary light source, producuing well light foreground figures and a dark room behind them - much the same result you'd get with your typical point ansd shoot with flash.

Using AV will allow you to use slow flash sync for a well expoosed shot of the subjects and the room background, even though the shutter speed might necessitate the use of a tripod to avoid secondary images from the ambient part of the exposure, and even asking the subjects to keep as still as they can for the same reason.

I hope that makes some sort of sense?
Click to expand...

yes, it is interesting that Nikon do it differently. I'm not sure it matters as long as you know how it works. For a beginner like my friend I guess it is a good way to get into manual as you can use the aperture to control the DOF and the shutter speed to give you control over ambient light and leave TTL to correctly expose the photo.
 
Flash is one of the most difficult things for a newbie to grasp and it's also one of the trickiest to explain, so good luck with your mission. :D If your friend just wants to take good flash shots without too much brain fade at the stage she's at, tell her to just use 'P' and the flash on ETTL. It will be fine out of doors and she'll still get good shots indoors, except the camera will act as the main light source.

I'd be amazed btw Pete if you Nikon doesn't allow you to use slow speed sync in AV mode?
 
CT said:
I'd be amazed btw Pete if you Nikon doesn't allow you to use slow speed sync in AV mode?
Click to expand...

Of course it does ;) But it isn't the default.

If that's the Canon default then it's a really dumb one because newbies who know no better will get terrible shots because of it.....cameras are usually set for fail safe when they leave the factory.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Of course it does ;) But it isn't the default.

If that's the Canon default then it's a really dumb one because newbies who know no better will get terrible shots because of it.....cameras are usually set for fail safe when they leave the factory.
Click to expand...

LOL. I'm not looking to start a Canon/Nikon war, and I did shoot with a couple of Nikon bodies and flashguns foir a good few years, but I'd disagree, and whether you have the option by default or not is a pretty fine point anyway, the fact is that slow speed sync in AV mode is enormously flexible and a very good way to use a flashgun.

Newbies will initially get terrible shots for all sorts of reasons quite apart from the use of flash. ;)
 
Islander said:
As mipev06 explained, in Av mode, the camera sets the shutter for ambient light and uses the flash to fill. With newer Canon models there's a custom function setting that allows flash to be used as the primary light source in Av mode but, having had a quick look at the manual, it looks as if this isn't available on the 300D. It'll have to be full manual if you want to use aperture control with flash as primary light source.
Click to expand...

Do you happen to know what this functions called or wether a 40D has it?
Would be handy to be able to just stick it on AV rather than full manual when using the flash occasionally.
 
studioworks said:
Do you happen to know what this functions called or wether a 40D has it?
Would be handy to be able to just stick it on AV rather than full manual when using the flash occasionally.
Click to expand...
I no longer have a 40D, but I've just checked with the 50D and the 7D and they're both the same so I doubt the 40D will be different.

Custom Function 1/7 'FLASH SYNC SPEED IN AV MODE'

There are 3 options....

0 Auto (which enables slow speed sync)

1 Auto 1/250th - 1/60th.

2 1/250th (fixed)
 
CT said:
LOL. I'm not looking to start a Canon/Nikon war
Click to expand...

Me neither ;) Plenty of good brands do dumb things. Like pretty much every piece of software Nikon have ever written.... :)
CT said:
the fact is that slow speed sync in AV mode is enormously flexible and a very good way to use a flashgun.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. But most cameras default to what I call "Jessops mode". If you pick up 3 cameras in a well known retail store and shoot flash pictures with them then chances are you're not going to buy the one with slow sync flash enabled.

But it's all moot - just got confirmation that Av really does default to slow sync enabled. P will choose between 1/60s and max sync. That's from a chap that Canon pay to demo flash who was moaning the other day about all the misconceptions there are so I bet he's right :D

ETA: apparently the 300D is the only EOS that doesn't have the menu option CT mentions above.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top