Advice needed

[Chris141h]

hi all just needing some advice for what people think I should do. I've been given the opportunity from a local paper for them to arrange access for me to attend some football leagues and photograph them on their dataco license. However the paper already have a photographer who covers the games so I would be unable to submit photos to them. However I did some freelance games for a agency last season which wasn't very good and lack of photos published. I'm worried if I go I won't get any pictures published from any national papers Etc as it would only be championship football and below do people think there is a demand for nationals and how well do they pay? As I have no contacts for nationals etc would I best off sending images to the sports picture desks for now. Then I think should I get in touch with agency's to work for them or try and do it on my own and build something? I will not be giving any photos away for free!! Thanks a lot and hopefully someone can help or offer some advice?

 

[blue marlin]

If you are getting into the game on their license you can not sent out to the nationals as you are not the license holder !!!

 

[Photodiva]

What Blue Marlin said. What I seem to be missing is why the paper would want to send you and then NOT use any of the images? So you go, spend your time and money getting there, processing the images, and then not doing anything with them, not getting them published, not getting paid. Huh?

 

[KIPAX]

What I seem to be missing is why the paper would want to send you and then NOT use any of the images?

There not sending him.

I've been given the opportunity from a local paper for them to arrange access for me to attend some football leagues and photograph them on their dataco license.

Sounds like there doing him a favour?


OK So how the licence works is.. whoever owns the licence owns the pictures no matter who took them.. so there not yours to send I am afraid....

However to take it a step further.. even if you went on an agency licence.. they would still own the pics and they would get paid for your pics and give you a cut.. nothign wrong with that so far....... you need to look at this logical like.... Even at a championship match.. how many photographers will be there.. how many papers are there that might be interested... usually photogrpahers outnumber interested papers.. Then how many of those papers sent there own photogrpaher or have deals with agencies? That leaves very slim pickings and really does lessen the chance of getting published anyway.. with lots of freelancers like yourself looking at a couple of papers who may or may not want a picture.....Its very hit and miss... You say your only doing lower than premiership.. I woudl say on spec the lower you go the more chance you have as less photogrpahers or agencies with deals ?

I did my first on spec game for ages today as it was a quiet sunday and game just down the rd... about 15-20 photographers for rochdale v bury... silly really.

I am not trying to put anyone off.. just offering up the realities of on spec work at grounds where your only chance of making money is national newspapers..

 

[Bluesman graham]

There not sending him.





Sounds like there doing him a favour?


OK So how the licence works is.. whoever owns the licence owns the pictures no matter who took them.. so there not yours to send I am afraid....

However to take it a step further.. even if you went on an agency licence.. they would still own the pics and they would get paid for your pics and give you a cut.. nothign wrong with that so far....... you need to look at this logical like.... Even at a championship match.. how many photographers will be there.. how many papers are there that might be interested... usually photogrpahers outnumber interested papers.. Then how many of those papers sent there own photogrpaher or have deals with agencies? That leaves very slim pickings and really does lessen the chance of getting published anyway.. with lots of freelancers like yourself looking at a couple of papers who may or may not want a picture.....Its very hit and miss... You say your only doing lower than premiership.. I woudl say on spec the lower you go the more chance you have as less photogrpahers or agencies with deals ?

I did my first on spec game for ages today as it was a quiet sunday and game just down the rd... about 15-20 photographers for rochdale v bury... silly really.

I am not trying to put anyone off.. just offering up the realities of on spec work at grounds where your only chance of making money is national newspapers..

Technically everything above is correct but also not!, copyright of DATACO images do indeed belong to the licence holder but the definitive "image" copyright still belongs to the photographer?, ie images cannot be used by the licence holder unless he has a signed written contract stating the photographer was in his employment! & relinquished copyright!.

 

[Richard Brooks]

Guys i'm really sorry if i mess up the thread with you brilliant answers given to a good question which really interests me and your skills & knowledge is currently above my pay grade but Its almost disheartening (but a sign of the times i suppose)
Is it a case now there's too many photographers trying for a piece of the pie with papers/magazines ect just blatantly now paying minimal (if at all) for good quality images. Seems harsh but to get on the ladder i did take up a voluntry role for a local team to you @Photodiva but dont get paid and spend my time increasing the count on my camera shutter and listening to their constant and changing requests. Another online agency use my pictures for "recongnition back" so from now i would like payment as i apply to agencies/papers to be part of their team? It just seems a hard thing to do as if i now charge and take that stance no payment no, pictures whats to stop whoever going thanks we'll just go and use the next photographer instead of you? I thought as the photograper owning the pictures i could give to whoever (Youve mentioned Dataco) and still advertise sell picturtes myself that seems fair (I took them)? but under contract, apparently not allowed!! Seems like theyre having photographers over a barrell here? No?? Should there be a better incentive aimed towards us and if there is... Why is it so hard to see?

 

[KIPAX]

I did my first on spec game for ages today as it was a quiet sunday and game just down the rd... about 15-20 photographers for rochdale v bury... silly really...

So I checked all the papers this morning.. all the nationals and as far as I can see.. no pictures from this game in any national newspaper... this is what I am talking about.. 15+ photographers and all the nationals just have a small match report... The club photogrpahers are OK .. the photogrpahers who are there for the local media on commision are OK .. Anyone on spec was a waste of time as far as I can see... I didnt mind.. met up with a few people not seen in ages.. Nowt else to do.. But bettter sticking to commisioned games..

 

[davidy233]

So I checked all the papers this morning.. all the nationals and as far as I can see.. no pictures from this game in any national newspaper... this is what I am talking about.. 15+ photographers and all the nationals just have a small match report... The club photogrpahers are OK .. the photogrpahers who are there for the local media on commision are OK .. Anyone on spec was a waste of time as far as I can see... I didnt mind.. met up with a few people not seen in ages.. Nowt else to do.. But bettter sticking to commisioned games..

Yep it's a waste of time even up here where there are less photographers at games - Only games I'll shoot without knowing my pics will definitely get used is games involving teams who have a Dundee player on loan - I can sell pics of them

 

[KIPAX]

Yep it's a waste of time even up here where there are less photographers at games - Only games I'll shoot without knowing my pics will definitely get used is games involving teams who have a Dundee player on loan - I can sell pics of them

and yet still more people want to be spoprts photogrpahers and dream of photographing at big games.... next tuesday 15th theres loads of games on.. fa cup and full championship and other leagues.... I will be at a sports park shooting lancashire u16s boys.. just me freezing... I will make more money than most people at big? games on same night... its still being a sports photogrpaher.. its still shooting football.. but its not glamour haha

 

[davidy233]

and yet still more people want to be spoprts photogrpahers and dream of photographing at big games.... next tuesday 15th theres loads of games on.. fa cup and full championship and other leagues.... I will be at a sports park shooting lancashire u16s boys.. just me freezing... I will make more money than most people at big? games on same night... its still being a sports photogrpaher.. its still shooting football.. but its not glamour haha

I like shooting top division football, but I also like photographing amateur and girls football - and you're correct - there's potential for making more money from kids, ladies and amateurs than from pro level football.

The idea that I'd want to sit outside in the rain and give much of any little bit of earnings to some made up little agency just for the buzz of being at a big game is ridiculous and I really don't understand why people want to do it.

 

[bigrob]

The Daily Star have virtually given up on Championship and below in their Sunday pull-out and use very few on Mondays.

The Mirror use on-spec very infrequently.

The Sun is the best option now, so there are a lot of photographers hoping a photo gets used from their game and then hoping it is theirs used.

i.e. as Kipax says slim pickings.

Obviously Telegraph and Times (the broadsheets) also have Championship games and lower but they use very little.