Advice on making good MTB shots please?

[ccsharry]

Hi guys,

I am planning to help my mate taking shots of him doing a charity challenge which is to cycle 215 miles of the Trans Pennine Trail non-stop. However, I had no experience on taking MTB shots until yesterday when I spent 30mins to take some trial shots for him in a forest. It was a little bit cloudy so light wasn't ideal. To compromise that, I had turned my ISO up and used big aperature to achieve above 1/125s shutter speed. I found that the photo turned out quite flat immediately and quite blurry (I need more panning shot practice!!). So I thought I should add a bit of flash (-1 2/3ev) to add more light and to increase the shutter speed. I think the flash helped a little bit but it still didn't look right to me. I want to have more spatial effect, better lighting on the rider and of course sharper image.

What have I done wrong? What should I do to take better shot here? Should I use higher shutter speed? Should I use flash gun? Please advice!

Thanks,

First attempt - No flash

Second attempt - With flash

1 shot HDR vs original - I like the HDR shot a lot more than the original shot!

 

[Dom]

You've set yourself a chalange there. Shooting a fast moving object in dull light and under heavy tree cover.

I'd personally use a big flash gun, maybe two.


I've found even if it is bright sun, in the heavy tree cover you'll still struggle to get enough light.

 

[richpips]

I think 5 + 7 are both good shots.

Whilst I like HDR, I have yet to see an example on a person that works. Look at his face, it has black lines on it. That's not to say that you couldn't HDR a top layer subtly, and erase the bits which go over his face and legs.

1/125 unless the rider is really shifting, is a bit fast. 1/80 or slower is what I tend to use, though there are more misses than hits the slower you go.

 

[ccsharry]

You've set yourself a chalange there. Shooting a fast moving object in dull light and under heavy tree cover.

I'd personally use a big flash gun, maybe two.


I've found even if it is bright sun, in the heavy tree cover you'll still struggle to get enough light.

I know it is going to be a challenge. So I hope to learn a lot from this!! Are you suggesting remote lighting (wireless strobes)? I have never done that before... 4 weeks time seems a little bit tight to get into it and master it. Any alternative suggestions?

I think 5 + 7 are both good shots.

Whilst I like HDR, I have yet to see an example on a person that works. Look at his face, it has black lines on it. That's not to say that you couldn't HDR a top layer subtly, and erase the bits which go over his face and legs.

1/125 unless the rider is really shifting, is a bit fast. 1/80 or slower is what I tend to use, though there are more misses than hits the slower you go.

um... The challenge I have is that I will only have one chance to take shots for him as he's going to keep going on the path while I would be going ahead of him to wait for him coming towards me... so I might need to use higher shutter speed to increase my keep rate...


Thanks for the suggestions so far. Any more advices are always welcome!!

 

[richpips]

um... The challenge I have is that I will only have one chance to take shots for him as he's going to keep going on the path while I would be going ahead of him to wait for him coming towards me... so I might need to use higher shutter speed to increase my keep rate...

You've shown you've got the gist already.

Shoot with the sun to the rider. With your camera flash as fill.

If you want to show speed a slow shutter is the way forward. Have you a tripod or monopod?

 

[ccsharry]

You've shown you've got the gist already.

Shoot with the sun to the rider. With your camera flash as fill.

If you want to show speed a slow shutter is the way forward. Have you a tripod or monopod?

Good advice. I will need to be wise and quick to react with the different scenes by the day. Fill Flash isn't something I am familiar of. Actually I just bought a flash last Christmas so it is a huge learning curve for me. I do have a tripod. What are you suggesting?

 

[richpips]

What are you suggesting?

From experience chasing a rider, leaves little time for learning new techniques.

I've ridden the TPT and most of it is dull tree lined stuff. Yawn.

There's a bit of open stuff, aim to shoot there.

Look at the maps, there is scope for good shots.

 

[KIPAX]

just up the iso and up the shutter speed.. you really need faster than 125 or 200 that your getting.. if you use high iso and get a good exposure it really wont be that bad.

 

[richpips]

just up the iso and up the shutter speed.. you really need faster than 125 or 200 that your getting.. if you use high iso and get a good exposure it really wont be that bad.

Any faster then the rider will be going backwards.

 

[ccsharry]

Any faster then the rider will be going backwards.

if I have chance I might try a few shots out

From experience chasing a rider, leaves little time for learning new techniques.

I've ridden the TPT and most of it is dull tree lined stuff. Yawn.

There's a bit of open stuff, aim to shoot there.

Look at the maps, there is scope for good shots.

I can imagine rushing it through woudn't give much time in preparation and thoughts. I will see!!

Yea... I really need to do more research. Possibly to look at more pictures of TPT and find some good spots for myself.

just up the iso and up the shutter speed.. you really need faster than 125 or 200 that your getting.. if you use high iso and get a good exposure it really wont be that bad.

Cool. I will try that out!! Thanks!!

 

[paulbennett]

shoot at nothing other than 250th. Use your flash to stop the subject not the shutter speed. Use 250th, as this is the most common sync speed for all remote triggers. Start but metering your ambeint light where the subject will be passing. Get your reading at 250th, then dial up your flashes to be 2 stops over that. Meter for your flashes and start shooting...

this will give you a darken background and your subject popping from the page. If you can get a good reading at 250th bump your ISO untill you can. Things to read on if you want to get into sports photography is...

1. Rule of thirds
2. Flash Durations
3. Flash recycling times
4. Compostion (is key)

and know the sport your shooting inside out, which line, jump or spot would make the best photo. Take a look through some magazines which take your fancy and try to replicate the shots. No offence, but dont centre your subject makes the shot rather boring

 

[richpips]

shoot at nothing other than 250th.

Great if you going for the static bike, static background look.

and know the sport your shooting inside out,

I do.

 

[paulbennett]

Great if you going for the static bike, static background look.



I do.

Erm...Rich i wasnt having a go...

Just saying, ok a panning shot may be fun to look at. But how many panning shots do you see in top mags such as DIRT??

 

[richpips]

But how many panning shots do you see in top mags such as DIRT??

I don't read DIRT, but looking through the a random copy of Singletrack I've just picked up, I can see several. I've had panning shots published in Singletrack, Cycling + and other publications. Nothing better to show speed and movement imho.

 

[paulbennett]

we are talking about two different types of riding here then...

DIRT - mental extreme freeriding / downhill...killer jumps etc
your mags...XC

 

[richpips]

we are talking about two different types of riding here then...

DIRT - mental extreme freeriding / downhill...killer jumps etc
your mags...XC

It doesn't look to me as if the above rider is likely to feature in DIRT anytime soon eh?

 

[richpips]

Anway for the OP.

Here's a shot taken with my G9 so not the highest quality, but it illustrates the sense of movement with a slower shutter speed.

Taken at 1/80th.

 

[paulbennett]

yeah im afraid it doesnt do anything for me.
looks like shes going uphill for once. and too much blur on her wheel...

Now this is a proper MTB shot, hes stopped dead, but gives the feeling of speed and concentration and rider skill.

amazing

 

[paulbennett]

another...

 

[richpips]

Now this is a proper MTB shot, hes stopped dead, but gives the feeling of speed and concentration and rider skill.

But the OP's mate isn't going to be bowling down a hill at 25mph, ripping up the corners and leaving a trail of dust behind on the TPT is he?

 

[paulbennett]

no that is true...but gives him someting to look for...make contacts of forums such as pinkbike and shoot riders who do that similar thing

 

[ScotlandTheScare]

I'm with richpips on this one. Practice your panning with slightly slower shutter speeds. Use flash to catch the person in focus while leaving the background blurred due to the panning. Get a sense of movement into the image that way - richs black and white photo has great focus on the face and yet there is movement in the image

 

[ellsworth]

there are some decent places on the tpt around woodhead tunnel you could get in front of him and get him cresting the hill there, it would give a good background .. also wharncliffe woods is just off the tpt if you want to get some shots on the downhill runs great place for getting some action shots

rich and paul have given you two different views of how to do it both work well in different circustances..great tips guys

mark

 

[ccsharry]

wow!! thanks a lot for all the suggestions. I suppose I should try both slow and fast shutters and see what suit my style and skill the most.

Those narrow depth of field and faster shutter speed shots are impressive!! I doubt my 24-105L will create anything like that.

 

[richpips]

I doubt my 24-105L will create anything like that.

That's NO excuse.

 

[ccsharry]

That's NO excuse.

is it? :bang: gotta find another excuse for my poor shots then

I'm excited about all these!! Really gotta use my camera more often!!

 

[schpleep]

wow!! thanks a lot for all the suggestions. I suppose I should try both slow and fast shutters and see what suit my style and skill the most.

Those narrow depth of field and faster shutter speed shots are impressive!! I doubt my 24-105L will create anything like that.

What ever you do, make you've done it before. Plan what locations you're going to be at on your mates' route, if you can, go do some tests. If not try what your planning in a similar location. There'd be nothing worse than seeing him sail past as you're trying to figure why the shot you though of didn't work (He's not likely to want to go back and ride it again for you)

From what you've said about the ride, you'll also need more scenic shots, something that conveys that he's riding out in the wilds. Look at the map, check the time of day he'll be passing for where the light will be.

Not planned to be honest, as I was riding in the event, but it does give a sense of scale.

As for the blur/not blur discussion above; my take would be that if it's a side on shot you're going to have to pan to ensure subject sharpness. You decide with the shutter speed how much blur is going to be in/ex-cluded. Unless it's super steep/technical trail, then no movement in a side on shot is going to look pretty dull/static.

A little


A lot

However, if it's a head on shot, like those posted by Paul, then more likely to have to be sharp. (Or so obviously blurred that it's done for artistic reasons ie Blurred =/= out of focus)

Head on + sharp


Deliberately not sharp. (honestly, I meant it dammit!)

The 24-105 should be spot on for what it sounds like you're trying to achieve. And, remember to ignore what everyone else has said and try your own thing too ;o)

 

[whipspeed]

Tip given to me (by a motorbike photographer) was to set your focus point to where the head will be as that's what you want sharp. This was also taken with the 24-105mm on my old 40D.
Also, try to shoot low, get to the riders level, if you are standing up, photographs of cyclists can look oddly small.

 

[vchaney]

I've just done Seb Rogers' course and the biggest thing for me was learning to take more of the decisions away from the camera. Exposure etc you can fix after the shot, but FOCUS is very hard to fix (a couple of your shots look pretty well panned but out of focus). The focus issue is exacerbated when using a large aperture because the depth of field is smaller (the rider could be in focus as you start to pan and then out of focus when you finish).

Learn to pre focus on where you want to take the shot. Your camera will probably have a focus lock or manual focus setting that makes sure your target area is in focus.

Secondly try to use a smaller aperture (f8?) or a wider angle lens to give you greater depth of field to allow a bit of margin for error.

Finally, adding the flash (particularly off camera) will help to bring out the rider but it can't make up for good panning technique.

(You can see a shot that I think works in the 'MTB Shot' thread if you're interested).

The other thing I learnt is that bright jackets and jerseys really work! Grey and black just don't stand out! ;-)

Hope that helps.

 

[flyingmonkeycorp]

I'd second the idea of going for scenic shots on the TPS - you're never going to get hugely exciting frozen DH shots 'cos it just ain't that kind of riding!

Try and pick the most interesting bits of trail, and plan your shots to that. Fast sections might want a bit of panning like this:



Whereas slower more technical bits might want to freeze the action more and flatter bits might want to take in more of the scenery.

Yeah I know, I should have used a narrower aperture and slower shutter on that one up there, but I chucked my bike down and yanked the camera out the bag, didn't have much time to play!

 

[ccsharry]

What ever you do, make you've done it before. Plan what locations you're going to be at on your mates' route, if you can, go do some tests. If not try what your planning in a similar location. There'd be nothing worse than seeing him sail past as you're trying to figure why the shot you though of didn't work (He's not likely to want to go back and ride it again for you)

From what you've said about the ride, you'll also need more scenic shots, something that conveys that he's riding out in the wilds. Look at the map, check the time of day he'll be passing for where the light will be.

As for the blur/not blur discussion above; my take would be that if it's a side on shot you're going to have to pan to ensure subject sharpness. You decide with the shutter speed how much blur is going to be in/ex-cluded. Unless it's super steep/technical trail, then no movement in a side on shot is going to look pretty dull/static.

However, if it's a head on shot, like those posted by Paul, then more likely to have to be sharp. (Or so obviously blurred that it's done for artistic reasons ie Blurred =/= out of focus)

The 24-105 should be spot on for what it sounds like you're trying to achieve. And, remember to ignore what everyone else has said and try your own thing too ;o)

Appreciate a lot for the detail suggestions mate!! I will definitely try the different techniques

Tip given to me (by a motorbike photographer) was to set your focus point to where the head will be as that's what you want sharp. This was also taken with the 24-105mm on my old 40D.
Also, try to shoot low, get to the riders level, if you are standing up, photographs of cyclists can look oddly small.

Great tips!! I agree with you totally!! I need to plan it well for the composition and focus before my mate cycle pass me!!

I've just done Seb Rogers' course and the biggest thing for me was learning to take more of the decisions away from the camera. Exposure etc you can fix after the shot, but FOCUS is very hard to fix (a couple of your shots look pretty well panned but out of focus). The focus issue is exacerbated when using a large aperture because the depth of field is smaller (the rider could be in focus as you start to pan and then out of focus when you finish).

Learn to pre focus on where you want to take the shot. Your camera will probably have a focus lock or manual focus setting that makes sure your target area is in focus.

Secondly try to use a smaller aperture (f8?) or a wider angle lens to give you greater depth of field to allow a bit of margin for error.

Finally, adding the flash (particularly off camera) will help to bring out the rider but it can't make up for good panning technique.

(You can see a shot that I think works in the 'MTB Shot' thread if you're interested).

The other thing I learnt is that bright jackets and jerseys really work! Grey and black just don't stand out! ;-)

Hope that helps.

Many thanks dude!! Indeed it is a disaster if shots are out of focus!! I really have to know my camera's focus system better!! I wish I could afford to pre-focus. since I only get one chance for each scene, unless I have plenty of decents shots already, I may not use pre-focus. Of course with a planned shot + pre-focus, the result would be a lot better (in theory, but hugely depending my timing)!! I will add flash but I need to work out how much fill flash I will need... not much experience with flash so I really need to practice more... And finally, I was thinking if I should suggest my mate to put some attractive tops and shorts on. I do think sharp colours cloth do help making better pictures

I'd second the idea of going for scenic shots on the TPS - you're never going to get hugely exciting frozen DH shots 'cos it just ain't that kind of riding!

Try and pick the most interesting bits of trail, and plan your shots to that. Fast sections might want a bit of panning like this:

Whereas slower more technical bits might want to freeze the action more and flatter bits might want to take in more of the scenery.

Yeah I know, I should have used a narrower aperture and slower shutter on that one up there, but I chucked my bike down and yanked the camera out the bag, didn't have much time to play!

Cheers for the advices dude

 

[experiment]

*pic*
Now this is a proper MTB shot, hes stopped dead, but gives the feeling of speed and concentration and rider skill.

amazing

Or it looks like he's having an SPD moment...

 

[vchaney]

I wish I could afford to pre-focus. since I only get one chance for each scene, unless I have plenty of decents shots already, I may not use pre-focus. Of course with a planned shot + pre-focus, the result would be a lot better (in theory, but hugely depending my timing)!!

It's actually quicker than you might think. I've remapped the buttons so that the camera autofocuses using the AFL button and then doesn't try again when the shutter button is pressed. If you focus on roughly where the rider will be and use a reasonable aperture (F8 or so) you'll have a good chance. I was out last night and that's the process I was using when just riding ahead and taking 30 seconds to get off my bike, get the camera out and get ready to shoot. Most of them were sharp (still not getting the panning 100% right). With practice it will mean more of the one offs come out and mean that you don't have to have the rider in the middle of the shot.

It might be worth going out with a rider with the stated intent of practicing. If you can show them a couple of good shots they'll want you to make them look that good too! Just find somewhere interesting and get them to reride it a few times while you practice your technique. Also boss them around to see what works and what doesn't. Be clear about line choice etc. A couple of hours of that and you'll be fine when you're out on the longer rides, not holding people up to shoot but still getting great shots.