Advice please - Lenses for Bird Photography

JerryL

JerryL

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Jerry
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I recently bought a Nikon 70-300mm VR for bird photography, but soon realised that there still isn't enough reach. I love the lens, but I think I have a choice to make to really get closer to the smaller birds.

I have a D80 but if at some point I upgrade then it may be to a D300.

I have a budget up to about £1500 for lenses and some thoughts I have were:

1) Nikon 300mm f4 with 1.4x teleconverter which gives me - 1.4 x 300 x 1.5 crop factor = 600mm quite useable

2) Sigma 50-500mm HSM but I understand cannot use TC's sensibly on this??

I as advised that the Nikon 70-200 Vr1 f2.8 with 2 x TC still doesn't give the reach for small birds (i.e 400mm)

I would welcome suggestions from users of the above lenses, or any other possibilities. Can any users of the Sigma 50-500 comment on its sharpness vs the Nikon lenses?

Thanks
 
Ok, you are into the area of diminishing returns here now...

To get small birds you really need to either be talking about a serious length upgrade or change your strategy to getting closer to start with. Maybe some development of your stalking skills would yield better results than glass?

What you need to work out is the field of view sizes for your "small bird". Work out how big the target is and then have a look and see how much it changes by going to 420mm, 500mm, 600mm etc

What I think you will find is that you will be surprised how much longer you have to get to gain a significant increase in frame filling size and that you still need to be close.
 
Desantnik is correct. For more common birds perhaps getting closer to them would be the better option for you,certainly the cheapest.Good long lenses are very expensive,whereas a small portable hide, some feeders,a bit of work and patience could deliver good results for you........:)
 
As has been said fieldcraft is a major part of wildlife photography.

I have the 70-300 AF-S VR on a D300 and although it is not written anywhere I have just got hold of a Kenko 1.4xTC and it works fine - VR included. You lose one stop of light and you have to be very steady with it or use a tripod but I have not noticed any serious IQ issues yet.

Admitedly the 300 f4 is what I am saving for though :love:

This was shot with the 70-300 AF-S VR and 1.4x TC on Saturday...

4548506767_7b2ebacfa5.jpg


HTH

Nick
 
Tractor Boy said:
anywhere I have just got hold of a Kenko 1.4xTC and it works fine - VR included. You lose one stop of light and you have to be very steady with it or use a tripod but I have not noticed any serious IQ issues yet.
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Great, that's solved a problem for me, I was looking to buy a 300mmf/4 and a converter now I can just buy a Kenko converter and put it on my 70-300 and save up for the 300 f/4
 
Tractor Boy said:
As has been said fieldcraft is a major part of wildlife photography.

I have the 70-300 AF-S VR on a D300 and although it is not written anywhere I have just got hold of a Kenko 1.4xTC and it works fine - VR included.
Nick
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Well you've just dispelled a myth that several shops have been telling me that it wasn't possible to use the 70-300 AFS-VR with a TC. In that case I too may look into this as does get you up to the 600mm.

Interesting that you also quote that the 300mm f4 is on your list, I singled that out as a few places are stocking it around the £980 mark so with a 1.4TC I assume you lose 1 stop (i.e f5.6). Cost wise it seems a good bet.
 
JerryL said:
Well you've just dispelled a myth that several shops have been telling me that it wasn't possible to use the 70-300 AFS-VR with a TC. In that case I too may look into this as does get you up to the 600mm.

Interesting that you also quote that the 300mm f4 is on your list, I singled that out as a few places are stocking it around the £980 mark so with a 1.4TC I assume you lose 1 stop (i.e f5.6). Cost wise it seems a good bet.
Click to expand...

As far as I know the Kenko is the only one that works with this lens.

As most of my wildlife stuff is birds the 300 f4 is the only prime that I can afford. Much as I would love to have a 500 it is just not going to happen as this is a hobby - and currnetly not a paying one either :thinking: I look on with a certain amount of envy at those who can afford the big Nikon primes and content myself with the fatc that I have seriously sharpened up the old stalking skills (without the injunctions :naughty:) and researched which reserves have hides that are useable with what lenses I have available.

As far as I understand the 300f4 takes the 1.4 with no loss in IQ and at a push the 1.7 wiht oly minnor loss of IQ. I must admit though at being quite impressed with the 70-300 and 1.4x rig at the moment :shrug:

I don't know if it is still on the website but One Stop Digital had the 300 f4 for about £850 delivered recently which is a bargain price - just couldn't quite stretch the wallet at the moment though :bang::bang::bang:

Nick
 
Thanks for the info on the Kenko converter. I May give that a go with the 70-300 first and see how I go. Like you it's a hobby and it's worth trying out the cheaper options first. If at a later stage the lens is worthy of upgrade then the Kenko should work equally well with the 300 f4.

From what other posters have said as well, I think fieldcraft skills will probably pay more dividends in the short term than shelling out loads of cash on the bigger lenses.

Do you have any more sample images of the 70-300 VR with the 1.4TC?
 
JerryL said:
Do you have any more sample images of the 70-300 VR with the 1.4TC?
Click to expand...

Not to many at the moment but here are a few..

4538922596_58bf5f4770.jpg


4548507931_291e739f54.jpg


4549140830_0bbfe64084.jpg


You do need decent light with the tc added to be able to keep the shutter speed up. The deer was handheld and the sparrows from a tripod.

Nick
 
Thanks Nick - I think they are pretty respectable, I'd be happy with them.
 
Hi Jerry,

The path that you are currently traveling sounds very similar to the long and winding road which brought me to my current set-up :naughty:.

I started out with the 70-300mm VR (on a D700) and was quickly frustrated by the focusing issues it had it in the low light (forest) conditions in which it was being used. I also found mine to be less than tack sharp at max aperture, at anything over about 220mm :shrug:.

So, I wanted to upgrade, but didn't like the idea of spending nearly a grand for the Nikkor 300mm f/4, as it would only really be good for one or two things (wildlife/sports/long landscapes). Instead, I opted to get better image quality at '300mm' by going for the new Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8 VRII and a crop-sensor camera body :naughty: (the D90). The perceived advantage here was that I would get a lens which I could use for all kinds of other stuff, as well as wildlife.

I quickly realised (as you have done) that 300mm focal length is nothing when it comes to 'birding' in the wild with nowhere to conceal yourself and so I tried to extend the reach of this kit with the addition of a Nikon 1.7x TC. Frankly, this wasn't a good combination (just as Desantnik said it wouldn't be). Although my reach was now equivalent to 510mm, the once ultra-fast f/2.8 lens was slowed down and couldn't always focus accurately. What's worse, the images were about equal in sharpness to the (much cheaper) 70-300mm that I had started off with :(.

Next step was to ditch the Nikon TC and go for the Kenko Pro300 DGX (1.4x) TC, largely for cost reasons, but also as it seems to work with more lenses than Nikon's version. Whilst I can compare it to a 1.4x Nikon TC, I would say that it's performance is very acceptable and the resultant images with the 70-200mm f/2.8 (now an f/4, effectively) where still pretty sharp.

But, I still wasn't happy with the lack of reach and the (frankly ridiculous amounts of) cropping, which I had to do for every bird shot I posted. More reach was the answer - but how to get it :thinking:!?

Well, going with Desantnik's advice (again ;)), I just decided to go in at the deep end (well, for my budget at least) and get myself the Nikkor 300mm f/4 AF-S prime. It arrived last week :)!

This lens is frighteningly sharp, when used on it's own. I was amazed at how well it nailed the focus as well, even in lowish light. My impression so far is that it's not especially quick to focus and has an infuriating habit of hunting by going down to the closest distance (or to 3m if you flick the appropriate switch) and then back out again, if you are tracking a bird in an empty sky and you don't get the active AF sensor right on target (in AF-S mode). I'm tempted to say that it actually focuses quite slowly in most conditions, but I need to spend more time with it first.

With the Kenko TC mounted, the equivalent focal length goes to 630mm - finally, a respectable length for 'birding' :D! Performance with the Kenko TC on appears to be very good indeed, from the sharpness point of view, although it slows down the AF to a level that is bordering on unsatisfactory, when used in anything other than clear daylight.

It's too early for me to know if this combination is really going to be 'good enough' for the kind of bird shots that I would like to get, as I'm still getting to grips with it. What I can be sure of though, is that I (personally) would never dream of putting a 2x Nikon TC on a 70-200mm zoom lens and expect to get either sharp shots or decent AF performance from that combination :(. You'd kind of be taking a really great lens and effectively crippling it :nono:.

The combination of the 300mm f/4 AF-S and 1.4x TC (Kenko or Nikon would both fit within your budget :)) would, I'm certain, give you far superior images and probably much better AF performance, too. Of course, for the ultimate in image quality and extendability, an old, battered Nikkor 300mm f/2.8 could be had for around 1,300-1,500GBP. These take TCs pretty well (or so I have read), but they are far, far bigger than the f/4 version and are not really hand-holdable for any length of time. Also, if you buy a really cheap one, you may get one with fungus, scratches, dust or other performance issues.

So, I can't really comment on the Sigma option, but I think that your first suggestion is a good one. Good luck with deciding :thumbs:.
 
Naboo32 said:
...What I can be sure of though, is that I (personally) would never dream of putting a 2x Nikon TC on a 70-200mm zoom lens and expect to get either sharp shots or decent AF performance from that combination :(. You'd kind of be taking a really great lens and effectively crippling it :nono:...
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I thought the new Nikon 2xTC didn't degrade the image in any noticeable way- at least not catastrophically when slapped on the 70-200 II? I would agree that it would no longer be considered very fast
 
Thank you all for such good advice. I do have the budget for the Nikon 300f4 if warranted, so I can see that is probably the best way to go, but I will need the TC anyway so will start with that and see how I go. As you have suggested, if the lighting and AF hunting poses too much of an issue then I can think of the 300 f4 with TC as the next logical path.

Having previously owned the 70-200 f2.8 VR1 lens I know how good Nikon sharpness is, but the 300 f2.8 or greater focal lengths are way out of my budget.

If the 300 f4 sharpness compares favorably against the 70-200 f2.8 VR then hopefully I will be on the right path. I will keep the 70-300 VR though as this should give me enough coverage for all my needs with having the 18-105 VR, 70-300 Vr and a 300 f4 + TC :D
 
Naboo,

The 300 f4 works just fine for fast things, so it also does with the 1.4x and 1.7x... well, i manage to nail 150mph+ superbikes head on with it!

There are a few tricks, you could use to make it work better...
 
I have a Nikon D300 and the 70-300mm VR lens to go with it. You can use a converter I use the Sigma 1.4 TC for extra length. There is enough room at the rear inside of the lens so the movement of that part of the lens DOES NOT hit the convertor.
It is not recommended by Nikon as A it is not one of their bits of kit and B
for that above a certain F stop you have to go into manual focus and I can't off hand tell you what that is. Can't say about other TC convertors but the Sigma one DEFINATELY works

Realspeed
 
Martyn... said:
300 f4 AF-S is sharp wide open ....

Both 300f4 AF - S + 1.7TC f7.1 ISO3200
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Martyn - you quote you use a 1.7x TC - what particular model (Nikon, Sigma, Kenko Pro) are you using? Be useful to know as this has now opened up other possibilities from the 1.4x others have suggested.
 
Maybe it's just me, but I found that the Kenko 1.4x that I owned had impact upon both IQ and AF ability (admitedly on Canon kit).

I can't say I know much about the Nikon lens range, but Canon do a 400mm F5.6 which is the dog gonads for the price (around £700 s/h). I assume that Nikon have something very similar.
 
JerryL said:
Martyn - you quote you use a 1.7x TC - what particular model (Nikon, Sigma, Kenko Pro) are you using? Be useful to know as this has now opened up other possibilities from the 1.4x others have suggested.
Click to expand...

Nikon TC17E-II on those images, as far as I am aware only Nikon make a 1.7x, I also have the Nikon TC14E-II which is almost like not having a TC fitted.

You need better light for the 1.7 but I was surprised how well it worked on the 300f4.

300 + 1.4TC = 420mm f5.6, 300 + 1.7TC = 510mm f6.7

Now the summer is upon us the light is better so you would be fine with the 1.7, you can always add the 1.4 later in the year, giving you the option.
 
Dr_O said:
I thought the new Nikon 2xTC didn't degrade the image in any noticeable way- at least not catastrophically when slapped on the 70-200 II? I would agree that it would no longer be considered very fast
Click to expand...

Well, I have to admit that I haven't seen any results from that combination, so I'm not really in a position to know :shrug:. I have seen examples from the 2.0 TCIII fitted to a 300mm f/2.8, but that lens is a super sharp prime - quite different to a telephoto zoom. Even Nikon (or was it Kenko :thinking:) warns that the longer TCs are not really designed to work with shorter, variable focal lengths.

I was basing my comments on the results I got from the 1.7x TC (which is supposed to be a lot less degrading to IQ than the older 2.0x version) on my 70-200mm f/2.8 lens :|. Personally, I'd describe those results as "unacceptable", but that's a very subjective matter.
 
desantnik said:
Naboo,

The 300 f4 works just fine for fast things, so it also does with the 1.4x and 1.7x... well, i manage to nail 150mph+ superbikes head on with it!

There are a few tricks, you could use to make it work better...
Click to expand...

Hi Desantnik!

I hoped that you'd find my post, so that you could read your well-earned praise :naughty:.

Anyway, care to elaborate on the "few tricks" :)? I've tried all of the different focus modes, but I keep coming back to AF-S, as this seems to be the most stable and works well enough for very distant objects (even if they are moving). As I said before, I also keep the focus limiter (such as it is) in the 'infin-3m' range, when shooting distant subjects.

Any other tips ... :shrug: ?
 
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