Advice please. Shooting into the sun @ sunrise

Jelster

Jelster

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Steve
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I have a (sort of) local old castle and using TPE I can see that currently the sun rises over the remains, so I thought "this is a good idea". However, my past experience at shooting towards the light has just generated aperture shaped artefacts in the image. Now, given that the web is littered with such images, what am I missing?

I've managed it at sunset without too much of an issue, but sunrise does seem to give me a problem. I'm shooting on a mirrorless APSC system if that helps.
 
I'm most certainly not a dawn person but I get similar sounding problems at sunset. My not particularly sophisticated technique is to take one shot as normal (and getting flare/artefacts) then another at the same exposure with my finger pointing down in shot just obscuring the sun but leaving the subject as unobscured as possible. This kills the flare. Then merge the two shots in Photoshop using the second shot as much as possible but the second shot to get rid of my finger and reveal the sun. A tripod helps...
 
ianmarsh said:
I'm most certainly not a dawn person but I get similar sounding problems at sunset. My not particularly sophisticated technique is to take one shot as normal (and getting flare/artefacts) then another at the same exposure with my finger pointing down in shot just obscuring the sun but leaving the subject as unobscured as possible. This kills the flare. Then merge the two shots in Photoshop using the second shot as much as possible but the second shot to get rid of my finger and reveal the sun. A tripod helps...
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Now that's not a bad idea. When I do my 5 exposure landscapes (-2 through to +2) I tend to stick my hand in front of the lens before I shoot it, then again after it so it marks the 5 frames. While this is for a different reason, the technique is similar and it will be easy to use as part of the workflow. Cheers for that...
 
Maybe at sunset there is more atmospheric haze and usually the sun is a *slightly* softer light source than it can be at sunrise.

Not always the case I know, the other thing I would say is your castle will prevent the sun becoming visible in the scene until it has risen enough to clear the ramparts, assuming you are below at lower level. So it is more intense than it would be in those earlier or later moments touching the horizon.

Are your aperture shapes flare in random parts of the image, or sunstar around the sun? I know it is a nuisance when weighing up required depth of field but shooting at the widest suitable aperture and not stopping down any more than you need to can help with both of these.

How I deal with it is not with filters, that can create more issues with flare, but by blending in Photoshop.

So, shoot you bracketed set of exposures once in full manual, then without moving the camera/tripod, shoot them again with your fingers passed over the sun to block the flare. Depending on where the flare is coming from you may ned to do this by moving your hand in from a different edge and maybe more than once.

You can then exposure blend and using layers perfectly clone out the flare spots.
 
Mr Perceptive said:
Steve, why 5 shot bracketing, when 9 shot is available on your camera, it only takes slightly longer to undertake, and gives more options in post
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My old Macbook struggles with more than 5. Well, that's not entirely true, I just don't want to wait an additional couple of minutes for them to blend the preview, then the DNG. When playing with focus stacking it was doing my head in it took so long!
 
Jelster said:
My old Macbook struggles with more than 5. Well, that's not entirely true, I just don't want to wait an additional couple of minutes for them to blend the preview, then the DNG. When playing with focus stacking it was doing my head in it took so long!
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You don't have to merge all 9, I usually take 9 and then pick the ones I want to merge
 
To minimise flare etc. I would ensure that there are no filters on the lens as multiple surfaces are the problem. Also I would always use a lens hood. Taking shots into the sun is similar to working in studio where strong light may be in front of the camera even though not in the frame. I would also use multiple exposures as I do like some shadow detail but not sufficient to make the scene look like mid morning.

Dave
 
Flare is often a characteristic of certain lenses, and finding a lens that can cope directly into the sun goes a long way to sorting this issue & leaving off filters like David sugested. That and a modern camera with decent dynamic range.

And as Chris said, photoshop can help. ;)
 
Jelster said:
I have a (sort of) local old castle and using TPE I can see that currently the sun rises over the remains, so I thought "this is a good idea". However, my past experience at shooting towards the light has just generated aperture shaped artefacts in the image. Now, given that the web is littered with such images, what am I missing?

I've managed it at sunset without too much of an issue, but sunrise does seem to give me a problem. I'm shooting on a mirrorless APSC system if that helps.
Click to expand...

1. Use solid tripod and lock it down firmly for the rest of the shoot from that spot.
2. Take EVERYTHING OFF that lens. Only leave the lens hood. Forget filters. Make sure the lens is clean on both sides.
3. Get familiar with the flaws of your lens. Where is the sharp point? What apertures show the least flare? Can it create nice sunstars at narrower apertures? Stick with the sweetspot or if required do several takes at different apertures
4. If you still get flare try to block sun with hand or something and do that extra frame. Very low sun won't cause any issues, high sun certainly will.
5. Do enough different exposures to cover everything from highlights to shadows. Make sure that tripod or head don't move at all, particularly if you have close foreground.
6. Put it all together in post. First time you will waste a lot of time but will get better as you find your way round. Diferent images may require very different techniques

A: nothing moves (water, trees, clouds). Do HDR merge in LR and process as normal.
B: things move. Match exposures and process all frames identically, then manually blend in photoshop. If it helps you can blend HDR with non-HDR exposures.

P.S. Do not move that shadows slider past 40-50%, and clarity past 20% under any circumstances.


sparker said:
A reverse grad filter would NOT help and they ain't cheap!!
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Fixed it for you :)

Jelster said:
Hmmm no they're not, especially to fit my Lee holder....
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Sell the lot, reinvest the money into better camera or lens.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
Sell the lot, reinvest the money into better camera or lens.
Click to expand...

Whilst I appreciate the response, I think I'll be keeping the filters.... I see many, many wonderful landscape shots that have utilised filters, so if it's all the same to you, I'll keep them.... (And I don't need a better camera or lens!)
 
LongLensPhotography said:
2. Take EVERYTHING OFF that lens. Only leave the lens hood. Forget filters. Make sure the lens is clean on both sides.
3. Get familiar with the flaws of your lens. Where is the sharp point? What apertures show the least flare? Can it create nice sunstars at narrower apertures? Stick with the sweetspot or if required do several takes at different apertures
4. If you still get flare try to block sun with hand or something and do that extra frame. Very low sun won't cause any issues, high sun certainly will.
5. Do enough different exposures to cover everything from highlights to shadows. Make sure that tripod or head don't move at all, particularly if you have close foreground.
6. Put it all together in post. First time you will waste a lot of time but will get better as you find your way round. Diferent images may require very different techniques
Click to expand...


Horrid advice, sorry.

You have it right, Jelster, Keep your filters. Doing sunrise / sunsets they are definitely a must. I find those that always offer the photoshop route - sorry to say - lack the skills or knowledge to shoot sunrises / sunsets properly.

Let me ask you , how did us old film shooters capture sunrises / sunsets before photoshop - or any digital processing for that matter?

We used ND and ND Graduated filters.

No lens camera combination is going to take great sunrise / sunset shots WITHOUT filters, sorry. Why someone would even suggest a new lens and camera is the answer is beyond me.
 
The Nikon D750 is great for this. Has a spot metering highlight exposure mode.

Basically exposes for the brightest part of the image and you bring the shadows back in post.

Cheers,
Dougie.
DSC_3067.jpg
 
dslk said:
Horrid advice, sorry.

You have it right, Jelster, Keep your filters. Doing sunrise / sunsets they are definitely a must. I find those that always offer the photoshop route - sorry to say - lack the skills or knowledge to shoot sunrises / sunsets properly.
Click to expand...

Let's see your sunrises then sir. I'll gladly rip them apart to small pieces.
 
Snapper67 said:
The Nikon D750 is great for this. Has a spot metering highlight exposure mode.

Basically exposes for the brightest part of the image and you bring the shadows back in post.

Cheers,
Dougie.
View attachment 276765
Click to expand...

You do realise 90% of the area is massively underexposed?
 
LongLensPhotography said:
Let's see your sunrises then sir. I'll gladly rip them apart to small pieces.
Click to expand...

ah... .you're one of THOSE. Figured as much.

You, sir, and folks like you, are THE exact reason I stopped going on web forums.


You, realize that taking nice photos certainly doesn't equal you to a surgeon, right? Put your ( obviously ) non existent penis away, bub. You're just another shooter lol.

You obviously, also, proved my point about photo shoppers 100%.

Here's a comment that'll make you mad:

If you have to do 5 shot HDR blends to do landscapes, then guess what? You're not skilled in ANY way. You're a digital artist, NOT a photographer.

You can get plug ins that do it all for you. Soooo... where's you actual talent? You're taking 3-5 shots, basically on auto mode, then, most likely auto mode photoshop a cut and paste tutorial from a youtube video you found last week.

Prove my work to some online scrub who has to photo shop / HDR??? lol kk then
 
LongLensPhotography said:
You do realise 90% of the area is massively underexposed?
Click to expand...

That image is down to my post processing. I've still to revisit it and do final edits.

My point still exists. I'm not great at masking and putting the seperate components on different layers to perfect the image.

Dougie.
 
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ianmarsh said:
I'm most certainly not a dawn person but I get similar sounding problems at sunset. My not particularly sophisticated technique is to take one shot as normal (and getting flare/artefacts) then another at the same exposure with my finger pointing down in shot just obscuring the sun but leaving the subject as unobscured as possible. This kills the flare. Then merge the two shots in Photoshop using the second shot as much as possible but the second shot to get rid of my finger and reveal the sun. A tripod helps...
Click to expand...

This is the most simple solution :) Presuming the dynamic range isn't too wide. Otherwise graduated filter or you need to adjust exposure between shots.
 
dslk said:
ah... .you're one of THOSE. Figured as much.

You, sir, and folks like you, are THE exact reason I stopped going on web forums.


You, realize that taking nice photos certainly doesn't equal you to a surgeon, right? Put your ( obviously ) non existent penis away, bub. You're just another shooter lol.

You obviously, also, proved my point about photo shoppers 100%.

Here's a comment that'll make you mad:

If you have to do 5 shot HDR blends to do landscapes, then guess what? You're not skilled in ANY way. You're a digital artist, NOT a photographer.

You can get plug ins that do it all for you. Soooo... where's you actual talent? You're taking 3-5 shots, basically on auto mode, then, most likely auto mode photoshop a cut and paste tutorial from a youtube video you found last week.

Prove my work to some online scrub who has to photo shop / HDR??? lol kk then
Click to expand...

Purists go out and take images with their LF kit and then spend the nights in dark and smelly darkrooms instead of providing web entertainment. Adios :)
 
Snapper67 said:
That image is down to my post processing. I've still to revisit it and do final edits.

My point still exists. I'm not great at masking and putting the seperate components on different layers to perfect the image.

Dougie.
Click to expand...

It is about the hardest kind of landscape image to do and do well. Why make life so difficult when there are sweeter low hanging fruits.

Presuming you had to do one for a client brief, here is how to go about it. As I mentioned 90% is totally underexposed, and that's the key. That 90% is actually pretty low contrast scene that should be 2-4X longer exposed. The sun is meant to be 100% white so that's OK too. The problem areas are the sun halo and reflection in the water due to overexposure, particularly the latter part. Well there comes a second much shorter exposure, or ideally darker exposure with ND filter to match the water look. Then you have to blend in the two problem areas.
Personally the placement of the sun in the far edge is not the best for composition so you would ideally shoot a different angle, and ideally one where sun is clipping the rock, both making exposure easier and creating a nice starburst.

I'd love to see how our new purist friend would solve this issue with plastic grads. Please fire away.
 
Snapper67 said:
That image is down to my post processing. I've still to revisit it and do final edits.

My point still exists. I'm not great at masking and putting the seperate components on different layers to perfect the image.

Dougie.
Click to expand...

Another thing to note - in general.

I wouldn't have exposed that or edited it in the way you have for the look/style you've got :) But that's what makes us all unique. I'm just not a great fan of the bright blob in a dark sky look so I would have tried to enhance the light rather than recover it.

I might grab two shots at different shutter speeds for landscape if I need to (or want to just in case!) What I sometimes do with waterfalls is shoot (rightly or wrongly) at different ISO settings to bracket exposures.
 
I know it's sunset, not sunrise, nor is that interesting an image - just thought this was cool as a technical demonstration, probably the benefit of a large high dynamic range sensor

This was a handheld single shot exposure, lifted shadows/whites in the foreground. Didn't reduce highlights so much as to leave a obviously circle around the sun and that's it.

I wouldn't be looking to raise the foreground so much that it looked unreal.

From

95370875_10163775134855227_5457387554573647872_o.jpg

94099631_10163710520070227_8360382020391534592_o.jpg
 
dslk said:
Horrid advice, sorry.

You have it right, Jelster, Keep your filters. Doing sunrise / sunsets they are definitely a must. I find those that always offer the photoshop route - sorry to say - lack the skills or knowledge to shoot sunrises / sunsets properly.

Let me ask you , how did us old film shooters capture sunrises / sunsets before photoshop - or any digital processing for that matter?

We used ND and ND Graduated filters.

No lens camera combination is going to take great sunrise / sunset shots WITHOUT filters, sorry. Why someone would even suggest a new lens and camera is the answer is beyond me.
Click to expand...

Also horrid advice, sorry.
 
Craig_85 said:
Also horrid advice, sorry.
Click to expand...

You can use filters or go down the multiple exposure route. I have settled on both, mainly for:

Use filters - multi-shot pano's to combine in Lightroom
No Filters - Multiple exposure "HDR" style and again combine in Lightroom when my 10-24 is covering the shot.

I don't like being told to "get better gear" when I know the kit I have is more than adequate.....
 
You can indeed BUT the more filters involved, the worse the flare is likely to be. I shoot an unfair amount of sunsets while on holiday and they vary from the full orb to the last pinprick of sun vanishing. I make sure the front element is spotless and usually base my exposure on the rear screen of my assorted Fujis. Rarely suffer from flare in those shots. Of course, I'm shooting the colours in the sunset sky rather than any foreground, for a combination, doing it in PP is probably easiest.
 
Jelster said:
Use filters - multi-shot pano's to combine in Lightroom
Click to expand...

Since a few updates ago Lightroom has one step integrated HDR panorama merge option. This involves taking a ridiculous number of shots for a wider panorama but once in a long while it's perfectly reasonable. In many cases working from a single exposures is enough unless facing the sun.
It is a PITA that LR can't deal with any movement in HDR merges where brightness range is both extreme and marginal, ie. dark leaves against bright sky or car headlights in the dark, or highlights on water. You have to go back and manually blend in a selected frame to fix it. At least movement in darker areas of similar brightness seem to be OK as LR will simply use the brightest frame for it without thinking about it.

If you have Canon 5D3 or another compatible camera try magic lantern. It simplifies bracketing process a fair bit, or at least reduces the number of exposures attempted. Hopefully with R5 bracketing will become less and less necessary but in most extreme cases.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
Since a few updates ago Lightroom has one step integrated HDR panorama merge option. This involves taking a ridiculous number of shots for a wider panorama but once in a long while it's perfectly reasonable. In many cases working from a single exposures is enough unless facing the sun.
It is a PITA that LR can't deal with any movement in HDR merges where brightness range is both extreme and marginal, ie. dark leaves against bright sky or car headlights in the dark, or highlights on water. You have to go back and manually blend in a selected frame to fix it. At least movement in darker areas of similar brightness seem to be OK as LR will simply use the brightest frame for it without thinking about it.

If you have Canon 5D3 or another compatible camera try magic lantern. It simplifies bracketing process a fair bit, or at least reduces the number of exposures attempted. Hopefully with R5 bracketing will become less and less necessary but in most extreme cases.
Click to expand...

I did a 7 shot vertical pano each of 5 exposures (that's 35 x 56mb RAW files) which my 2014 Macbook Pro managed, but very, very slowly. The result was great, it just took far too long on my hardware. So now I tend to shoot pano's with an ND Grad, cutting the processing time right down.

I'm not interested in changing kit to accommodate other software, and I like shooting with my Fuji kit, and it's more than capable.

What did we do before digital?????
 
Jelster said:
I did a 7 shot vertical pano each of 5 exposures (that's 35 x 56mb RAW files) which my 2014 Macbook Pro managed, but very, very slowly. The result was great, it just took far too long on my hardware. So now I tend to shoot pano's with an ND Grad, cutting the processing time right down.

I'm not interested in changing kit to accommodate other software, and I like shooting with my Fuji kit, and it's more than capable.

What did we do before digital?????
Click to expand...

At base ISO your Fuji gear (considering they are at least X-T2 generation) should have enough dynamic range to seldom need ND grads.

This thread has gone a circle somewhat, from my understanding you were trying to eliminate flare for which filters will make things worst.
 
nandbytes said:
At base ISO your Fuji gear (considering they are at least X-T2 generation) should have enough dynamic range to seldom need ND grads.

This thread has gone a circle somewhat, from my understanding you were trying to eliminate flare for which filters will make things worst.
Click to expand...

Indeed it has, and yes, I understand that into the light, filters raise the chance of flare.
 
Jelster said:
I did a 7 shot vertical pano each of 5 exposures (that's 35 x 56mb RAW files) which my 2014 Macbook Pro managed, but very, very slowly. The result was great, it just took far too long on my hardware. So now I tend to shoot pano's with an ND Grad, cutting the processing time right down.

I'm not interested in changing kit to accommodate other software, and I like shooting with my Fuji kit, and it's more than capable.

What did we do before digital?????
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I don't think I've ever taken 35 shots for one image. The thought of that isn't up my street lol
 
Jelster said:
What did we do before digital?????
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A mix of things. We would use grads with all the mess they caused (like darkened mountaintops or buildings) as well as flare - they were ugly then, and haven't got any better although they can be fixed a bit in post. negative film is also very much more tolerant of over-exposure, so when printing properly one could burn in the sky or hold back parts of the landscape for more detail in shadows. You shouldn't really be shooting sunrise on transparency. :p

To me, unless you want the retro look - a bit like using old lenses - or you simply can't hack post-processing and insist on working in jpg, then there's no reson to use a graduated filter with a recentish camera.
 
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