Am I being unreasonable?

Stiglet said:
ok lol am sticking with Sigma to contact here for now, their website says 3 weeks which I assume why the Shop says for.

And this is kinda my point if one in a 1000 breaks then its not really any skin off their nose to replace a faulty one instead of going through the pain in the arse of fixing it on the apparently likeliness it would still just break again. They can recon and sell the other and I doubt the money they would lose would be anything to them. So why not keep all their customers happy and maintain a good reputation instead off ****ing off people who are pontential repeat customers and also advocators for their product?
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I would think for Sigma that would be a major consideration because they do have a reputation for not so good quality.

About 2 years ago I bought a Sigma lens which sounded ideal - it was a 28-300mm (I think) AF Zoom and Macro with internal focussing - and sounded perfect for what I wanted.

Unfortunately the IQ was very bad and the Macro was even worse with 1 good shot out of a 100.

At first Jessops were loath to replace it so I sent some pics away to Sigma who agreed the IQ wasn't very good.

Jessops then sent it back as faulty and I replaced it with the Canon 70-300mm IS USM which is great.

I can understand Jessops reluctance to replace it until it was described as faulty, but surely Sigma should understand that their reputation is the most important thing they have.

And nowadays with the Internet, keeping customers happy becomes even more important.

After all when a customer is upset he, or she, can share that unhappiness not just with the manufacturer and retailer BUT WITH THE WHOLE WORLD!

Just like this thread!

It really is time for ALL manufacturers to wise up.
 
Stiglet said:
Oh i assumed the 1 in a thousand was an actual quote from something. If ten items in a hundred a faulty I think they have issues as a manufacturer.
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Have you seen the expected failure rate from different manufacturers? 10% might be a bit high but with some manufacturers and on some products it is higher than that. I think the XBOX 360 is at about 45% !! Some manufacturers publish these figures others don't
 
LOL well I never kicked off, I am a lady, I have qualification in customer service so i know it would only make the situation worse.

And petesmart..thanks for understanding my point of view was beginning to think I was going bonkers and yes you are very right.

Usually, (not in this case) but If I am spending that much money on something I would look online for reviews. And it will be the peeed off people doing the reviewing not the happy people so they really do need to think about what cost one unhappy customer could cost them in potenital customers

And well if I am seeming unreasonable to anyone I am a single working mum, I have very little spare money what I do goes on my camera and my camera is often a a great source of recreation for me and my lad which is now currently on hold, indefinitly, And although I am not a pro photographer by any means, I am trying to break into a career slowly and this is just a major set back of some excellent opportinies I will now miss. The most I can hope for is maybe get a second hand but that is still 100+ I just dont have.
 
Yes, you are being unreasonable.
 
I certainly understand your point of view and really do agree with you. If manufacturers allowed retailers to just replace items, it would be so much better for the customer and the person in the shop who inevitably take the flack from the customer.
I am unemployed after working for 20 years in retail, also with a qualification in customer service and also trying to start a career into photography, I don't really want to be without my camera either, but until the manufacturers change their policy (which will never happen) I just have to put up with it.
 
ki_user said:
I certainly understand your point of view and really do agree with you. If manufacturers allowed retailers to just replace items, it would be so much better for the customer and the person in the shop who inevitably take the flack from the customer.
I am unemployed after working for 20 years in retail, also with a qualification in customer service and also trying to start a career into photography, I don't really want to be without my camera either, but until the manufacturers change their policy (which will never happen) I just have to put up with it.
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I wonder if there is any less flack to be had in photohraphy lol
 
I don't think you have kicked off at all. I do think you are being a tad naive though. Sigma's actual return rate is likely to be about 2-3% possibly a tad higher and someone is going to buy one of those. I wouldn't be particularly happy if it was me but these things happen. I have just had to return a P&S camera that failed and my IXUS p&s failed. I thought my D700 had failed this morning and I managed to remain strangely calm!
 
fracster said:
Yes, you are being unreasonable.
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Well I certainly don't think she is - the problem with this country is that too many people don't complain loudly enough.

Try going to the States and see how the customer is treated there - it makes retailers here look like crap!

Why?

Because in the States if a customer is unhappy THEY COMPLAIN!

LOUDLY!

And they keep complaining until they get satisfaction.

And they've been doing this for decades.

The result?

Problems get sorted fast.

If I'd spent over £300 on something which packed up after a few months I would certainly be unhappy - and I'd let them know!

Trust me - being a ba***rd works!
 
How silly.

Anyway, the retailer has offered to send it back and get it fixed,if that fix is not available,then you will get a new one.Not a perfect solution, but then life is not perfect.Such is.........


Edit...As for the American reference, perhaps that is why the rest of the civilised world thinks they are ,well, whatever.
 
Yes but thats 350 of my money that has caused a major inconvienance to me, and I dont want basically what would be reconned faulty goods after I paid fulled price!

I guess 350pound is a lot more money to me than some people.
 
fracster said:
How silly.

Anyway, the retailer has offered to send it back and get it fixed,if that fix is not available,then you will get a new one.Not a perfect solution, but then life is not perfect.Such is.........
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Not silly at all.

I've had to deal with exactly those kind of problems often and sitting back and taking it doesn't work.

If the retailer doesn't like customers complaining then let them do exactly the same thing - kick up hell with the manufacturer!

Demand better service for their customers.

And keep demanding it until they get it!

Only wimps give in.

.
 
Better not.
 
Stiglet, are you from the UK? If so, our laws are very, very strict and you are covered under them for this instance. The best advice I can offer is to contact Consumer Direct on 08454 04 05 06 or email them by going here.

Under the Sale of Goods Act you are entitled to a repair or replacement. Any arbitrary limit they impose is nonsense, they are obliged under UK consumer law to repair your purchase. If they do not repair it this time, it is not unreasonable to require a replacement.

Under no circumstances should you go to the manufacturer, even though they offer a warranty it is the shop that sold it to you that is legally responsible, not the manufacturer.

At worst, you will have to take the shop to the small claims court where you should be awarded the cost of the lens and legal fees.
 
Er what?

A screw fell out and it no longer goes in and out with the ring, I have not said anything about the photo quality, I didnt know know Sigma were the bottom end of the market but thanks for clearing that up, as said I will probably invest my money elsewhere next time.
 
Coldeh said:
Stiglet, are you from the UK? If so, our laws are very, very strict and you are covered under them for this instance. The best advice I can offer is to contact Consumer Direct on 08454 04 05 06 or email them by going here.

Under the Sale of Goods Act you are entitled to a repair or replacement. Any arbitrary limit they impose is nonsense, they are obliged under UK consumer law to repair your purchase. If they do not repair it this time, it is not unreasonable to require a replacement.

Under no circumstances should you go to the manufacturer, even though they offer a warranty it is the shop that sold it to you that is legally responsible, not the manufacturer.

At worst, you will have to take the shop to the small claims court where you should be awarded the cost of the lens and legal fees.
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Thanks, Sigma seemed to invite people to contact them about faulty good direct so I was just cutting out the middle man.

And yeah I dont have enough money for a new lens nevermind a small claims action lol
 
Stiglet said:
Thanks, Sigma seemed to invite people to contact them about faulty good direct so I was just cutting out the middle man.

And yeah I dont have enough money for a new lens nevermind a small claims action lol
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I think, if I remember correctly, a small claims action should cost you under £100 (more like £50). The judge would more than likely look at your evidence and award you the damages very quickly, they do loathe their time being wasted by companies not abiding by the smallest of laws. The Office of Fair Trading may take up the case for you if they consider it in the public interest, although I wouldn't expect it.

Unfortunately, while Sigma may advertise for people to contact them directly, as has already been mentioned, you have a contract with the shop (specifically a Contract of Sale) and therefore you must go through them if you hope to enforce your consumer rights.

Fortunately for you however, the Sale of Goods Act which you will be using to have your item repaired or replaced allows for reasonable use and reasonable durability. It is unreasonable to expect some screws to fall out internally within 6 months when the manufacturer offer a 12 month guarantee.

The act also says:
If the buyer requires the seller to repair or replace the goods, the seller must—
(a)repair or, as the case may be, replace the goods within a reasonable time but without causing significant inconvenience to the buyer;
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If you find that the repair is significantly inconveniencing you, then you can require a replacement. That in itself would not be unreasonable.
 
I don't think Sigma are at the bottom end of the market, In fact I am very pleased with the SIGMA lenses in my bag
 
Stiglet said:
Thanks, Sigma seemed to invite people to contact them about faulty good direct so I was just cutting out the middle man.

And yeah I dont have enough money for a new lens nevermind a small claims action lol
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Stiglet if Sigma say contact them about faulty goods then do it.

Let them know you are extremely unhappy about the way the problem is being dealt with.

Yu don't have to be nasty or rude but just let them know that you are prepared to be a grade A pain in the ar*e if you don't get a replacement - and quickly as it is costing you money.

Let me tell you a little story.

Some years ago I had a workshop and one day all my tools were stole.

Luckily (or so I thought) I was insured and would get the money to replace them.

But the insurance company were in no hurry to sort the claim even though I was losing money every day.

And contacting the broker made no difference - all he did was give me the usual guff about it being in the system.

After a couple of weeks I decided to sort the problem myself.

Now I could have gone to the broker (again) or written to the area manager but I didn't.

I went to the library and got the name of the Chairman of the company and wrote directly to him at the head office.

I told him I was extremely fed up waiting for my claim to be sorted out while I was going out of business and that unless it was sorted out immediately I intended to write to my MP and others suggesting a punitive tax on all insurance companies who used the system as a means of prolonging claims.

Ridiculous?

Maybe - but I posted that letter first class as soon as it was written - 1 day later I receved a phone call from the area manger to aplogise about the delay and 1 week later received a cheque for the full amount I had claimed!

Why?

Because I have no doubt the Chairman realised that anyone who went to the trouble of contacting him directly could be a royal pain in the ar*e!

It was so much easier to get rid of me then not.

So you see Stiglet I know that being a b*****d works!

And that really is a true story.
 
If its the well known local high street photography retailer they tried to palm me off with a used Nikon D300 as new, thinking I was a complete numpty. When I challanged them they admitted they had made an error but I am sure they were hoping to get away with it. What caught them out was they had opened the box and charged up the battery, also there was no screen protector which comes with a D300 in a sealed box. Also the D300 had a version update 6 months earlier which this one didn't have, so I knew something wasn't as first appeared.

When your spending around £1000 for something new and this happens its not that funny. I wouldn't trust them as far as their shopfront door.

So you can't be sure they havn't tried the same trick with the lens, ie a demo shop one as new or worse, used by one of the staff then put back into stock.
Seems highly suspicious to me, I would check with Sigma the serial number against date of manufacture

Although I would purchase a camera from a decent UK shop,I get far better service for lenses from Hong Kong, and a lot cheaper even after import duties,VAT etc. I actually managed to get hold of a
particular Sigma lens at 2/3rds the price of UK stock (which no dealer seemed to have or if did asking full retail price as it was a new one out).
Realspeed
 
Stiglet I would like to thank you for starting this thread, reading the comments of the people on here has really confirmed that I am best off out of it. When I read just kick off and see people quoting the sales of goods act and don't have a clue what it really means I know I made the right choice. I'd rather unemployed and struggling to start a photography business than get put through the hell I did week in week out.
 
ki_user said:
people quoting the sales of goods act and don't have a clue what it really means
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Well I'm quoting directly from the act itself here. It's very difficult to misinterpret when you're reading it from the horses mouth.

I will, and am probably going to sound like a broken record, say get in contact with Consumer Direct. They will advise you better than anyone here or well... anywhere. They are part of the Office of Fair Trading, which enforce trading laws, including the Sale of Goods Act.
 
Coldeh said:
Well I'm quoting directly from the act itself here. It's very difficult to misinterpret when you're reading it from the horses mouth.

I will, and am probably going to sound like a broken record, say get in contact with Consumer Direct. They will advise you better than anyone here or well... anywhere. They are part of the Office of Fair Trading, which enforce trading laws, including the Sale of Goods Act.
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Not sure why you thought I was talking about you :thinking:

Good idea to go to consumer direct, I wish a lot of the people I had to deal with had taken that bit of advice before having a pop at me.
 
ki_user said:
Not sure why you thought I was talking about you :thinking:

Good idea to go to consumer direct, I wish a lot of the people I had to deal with had taken that bit of advice before having a pop at me.
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I'm glad you aren't, it's just I was quoting from the Act as well as others :)
 
am i missing something or am i right in thinking that this well known retailer that you won't be reccomending you haven't mentioned?

seems to me if you're that annoyed you'd surely state which company it is? or have i missed some new rule that forbids this? :/
 
Well, having come across this thread, I might as well add my 2p!

Personally, I find that the first thing to do in this situation is research on the internet for similar issues (and hopefully the way they were resolved). Once armed with this information, you need to plan your approach to the retailer! I tend to believe that being extra polite and complimentary and not pretending to know my legal situation helps here.

I would have gone in and asked to speak to the manager (explaining to the sales assistant, no offence, it will probably need their authorisation and I just dont want to have to repeat myself and waste your time when you could be making a sale!).

Once speaking with the manager, explain you have used the company a lot and you have always had fantastic service in the past, you understand this is not their fault and from looking on the internet seems to be a manufacturing fault caused by X. From also looking online, you understand their policy is ... Sadly this puts you in a real predicament, I have been asked to photograph friends wedding, golden anniversary etc 1 week from now and being a person of limited means dont have a spare lens to replace this one, so what is it you can do to help me?

Now unless, the manager is a real hard ass they will normally do everything they can to help you as they can now see, you are a loyal customer, you have done your research and cant be fobbed off, and have an event coming up that is a one of a kind so can see the urgency.

I have used this approach for numerous items and always had it resolved on the day, be it a refund, exchange or some other way of meeting my expectations (and in some cases exceeding them!).

Having worked in retail in the past, you have to understand yes there are laws etc in place, but if you start quoting them at people it gets their back up, if you kick off or get arsey with people it will have a negative effect. These companies are not stupid, they know the law and what the limits are and in some cases are governed by the manufacturers when it comes to repairs etc. As far as the staff are concerned you could be 20th person today returning something so they're going to be miffed so you have to be an individual and approach it a just a bit differently! Blocking their arguments with your opening statement, gives you a much better chance of success as well as approaching it in a calm and pleasant way...
 
Right sorry quick post before I go to work hop I address everything

The reason I hadnt said the name of the shop was because a lot of forums have name and shaming polcies but its doesnt appear to be the case here also obviously the shop is acting on behalf of the manufactor so am not really sure who I am cross with but it is Jessops I am refering to.


The place were I work sells furniture, damaged items are sold as that damaged items at a reduced price relating to damage, second hand was wrong word to use certainly nothing illegal about what we do.

Rob Richards, I very much agree with what you said, my chat with Jessops staff was very brief he explained their policy I shared my view and asked for the customer services manager number I was concious it near closing on a sunday and how fed up they all already looked.

Thanks for other replies will have a look when I have more time
 
Stiglet said:
I think I am going to contact Sigma direct with a few trading standards quotes.
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hold your horses and go with the polite approach to sigma, its not them arsing you about after all. service work through sigma is usually 2-3 weeks, not sure if warranty work gets priority however.

sigma service are extremely friendly and in my experience offer fantastic service, drop them a line explain that the seller is faffing you about and see what they say.
 
Sales of Goods Act is irrelevant when it comes to the manufacturer, they are not the ones you bought it from, Sigmas customer is Jessops not you and business to business transactions are completely different.

The contract is with the shop you bought it from, it is the shop who have said sure we will get it repaired. You keep saying that your not happy to be getting a repaired item back, would you be happy to be given a 5 month old used item back? probably not either you want a new one. I would love it if I could do that with everything, take a screw out here or there return it and get it replaced for a new one but thats not how things work, a screw falling out is poor manufacturing, they should use some form of loctite on the thread during construction so screws cant come undone during use.

A little reading on the net and forums like this place will tell you about the occasional questionable quality of sigma lenses, I almost bought a 10-20mm but decided the chance of getting a duff one wasn't worth it and spent the extra and got the canon 10-22mm which I hadn't seen a complaint against. I'm sure there are problems with canon lenses but there are far fewer complaints posted about them than Sigma, even Tamron get more praise than sigma seem to do.
 
Stiglet said:
The place were I work sells furniture, damaged items are sold as that damaged items at a reduced price relating to damage, second hand was wrong word to use certainly nothing illegal about what we do.
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That's a different thing entirely, in the past many retailers used to sell returned/repaired items as "ex-display" which is a :nono:


Jessops aren't quite telling you the whole truth regarding having to allow them 3 chances to fix any problem, that only applies if you allow them to repair it, if you flat out reject to accept a repair (which you can do within the first 6 months) then they are obliged to offer you a replacement. Once you have allowed them that first opportunity to repair the lens you would lose any right to a replacement though, unless it turned out to be unrepairable.

All of this however depends on Sigma admitting it to be a mmanufacturing fault, if they come back and say it's due to the lens having been mistreated/dropped etc then you're stuffed...
 
Little John said:
Sales of Goods Act is irrelevant when it comes to the manufacturer, they are not the ones you bought it from, Sigmas customer is Jessops not you and business to business transactions are completely different.
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This.

Seems pointless "kicking off" at Sigma, they're unlikely to be fussed either way. Your original contract was/is with Jessops, and as such all remedy should be sought through them.

If it's inconveniencing you that much, why not hire a lens for the events and ask Jessops to compensate you for the hire, while your lens is being repaired. If they won't it's not the end of the world, your events get covered, I assume you're being paid for them, so you'll just make a bit less profit, but your customer will be happy, and that's the most important thing to your business, regardless of anything else IMO.

As others have stated above, you have two options, seek recompense through the SOGA in the form of a new lens, or get the lens sent off for repair and ask them to pay for hire charges for an equivalent lens, whilst yours is being repaired.
 
I just can't see Jessops coughing up for lens hire, this is a £350 lens what will they have made on that sale, 20%/£70? A hire of most lenses will cost that. I know its good cstomer service but companies need to make money and jessops will not give all their profit away from a sale just to keep a customer who may spend £350 every few years, what happens next time the lens breaks another lens hire and even more money lost. I would be supprised if they would do that for a £1600 lens never mind a £350 lens.
 
I agree they wouldnt offer lens hire either but no harm in asking I guess

For the millionth time, I am not 'kicking off' I am cross they my £350 product litterally fell apart in my hand, and someone who doesn’t have 350 to spend on such items is understandably cross.

As per someone else covering events, I am not a pro photographer, (hence no back up lens) I wasn’t being paid but I had been offered some excellent opportunities that could boost me into photography and also make money out of any prints sold so am sure the events are covered but I will be missing out hugely.

And I don’t have money readily available to pay for lens hire whether it was going to be refunded or not

And as for taking lens apart at 5 months well I guess that people would have the cheek to do that is why I can’t get a replacement item. I would however accept a 5month old items that was in excellent working condition if it was offered as a replacement. It a lens after all not a pair of knickers.

And that is in interesting post flash in the pan, so if it’s under 6 months I can refuse repair and get a replacement item but in terms of them saying it’s been mistreated it certainly hasn’t, how would this be proved as surely my word against there’s, there is no physical damage to the lens?
 
Yes, it is their word against yours but in a court of law, and the balance of probabilities, the manufacturers word would be more believable than yours. Sorry, but they would have more credibility than you, given that they see 1000's of these items and would be likely to have a lot more experience than you.
 
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