Am I missing something??

[woof woof]

"Surely if it did make sense, one would be available?" egg etc...

See the internet rumour sites, one may very well exist and not be too far off coming to market. I think that although this rumour may or may not be true it's realy only a matter of time, look at the number of IS lenses that have come out recently.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/Canon_new_lenses.html

 

[TriggerHappy]

"Surely if it did make sense, one would be available?" egg etc...

See the internet rumour sites, one may very well exist and not be too far off coming to market. I think that although this rumour may or may not be true it's realy only a matter of time, look at the number of IS lenses that have come out recently.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/Canon_new_lenses.html

If you're one to follow rumour sites you should know better than most that their success rate at spotting upcoming releases is pretty p*** poor. I'm not saying that a 24-70mm with IS isn't on the horizon, just pointing out you seem to be pinning your argument on a speculation.

 

[n1kcy]

Just to be controversial

I think you folks are missing the point

Hopefully all of us here are or would like to be photographers....

How many people buy an entry level SLR

Never use it out of the green square mode
Never buy another lens
Wouldn't know what a shutter speed was unless it's something that runs you over ;-)
Wouldn't know what an aperture was unless they fell in it
etc..

For them IS sounds like a nice to have...
It might rescue some shots for them....

We ran a beginners course @ work the other day and had quite a few people that fit into the above....

One size doesn't fit all.....

Light blue touch paper... Run away.....

You seem to have got away with this one Martin

I think you summed it up quite well with "sounds like a nice to have".

Most of the people at my work only know one thing about their cameras.....how many megapixels it has :bang:

The next thing they like to tell me in a proud way is that they got a fantastic quality, super sharp 70-300mm lens for only £200...:bonk:

edit - I'm not saying that you can't get a good zoom for £200, but they really think theirs is as good as what the pros use.

 

[odd jim]

Ive said this before, how can IS not be an advantage, its another piece of the arsenal! I have taken shots with my 18-135 IS (which has supurb IS, as good as four stops) as low as 1/4 of a sec at night which were still sharp even at 18mm.

I couldnt have achieved that without IS unless I a tripod, and I HATE lugging that thing around!

 

[woof woof]

"you seem to be pinning your argument on a speculation."

It's not an argument as people's views seem to be too entrenched. I just added the link for fun and interest value.

As to the accuracy of these sites...well, they seem to be pretty good to me. They start off just with a wish list and wild speculation but the nearer the release date they get the more accurate they get and if you check out the history of the better sites you will see that they normally print the correct spec before the product is released. It's only a matter of time before the true spec is known and the fun is guessing at what point we've passed wild speculation and are in fact reading what the spec in fact is.

On the whole though I'd still say that it's just a matter of time. Does anyone really believe that at some point in the future we'll still be usng non IS lenses (or bodies)? To me it's only a question of when it'll happen.

 

[boyfalldown]

Ive said this before, how can IS not be an advantage, its another piece of the arsenal! I have taken shots with my 18-135 IS (which has supurb IS, as good as four stops) as low as 1/4 of a sec at night which were still sharp even at 18mm.

I couldnt have achieved that without IS unless I a tripod, and I HATE lugging that thing around!

how can it be an advantage if it is no use to you in a given situation. I'm not going to disagree that IS is great on some lenses, in some situations - but its another tool, not the be all and end all, there are times when a faster shutter speed (for example) or a tripod (again for example) are going to be much more useful

 

[Donki]

Why do people hate carrying a tripod, I hardly even notice it when its strapped to my camera bag, yes it a light weight one but does the job if i know I am going for a trek. Stop moaning you women!!

 

[odd jim]

how can it be an advantage if it is no use to you in a given situation. I'm not going to disagree that IS is great on some lenses, in some situations - but its another tool, not the be all and end all, there are times when a faster shutter speed (for example) or a tripod (again for example) are going to be much more useful

...but surely a steadier frame, no matter what you are shooting, will always be an advantage?

 

[boyfalldown]

...but surely a steadier frame, no matter what you are shooting, will always be an advantage?

I don't think so, not if your subjects are moving and IS means you can hand hold at shutter speeds too low to stop that movement (for example)

Its a useful tool, but knowing when its useful and when its not is good

 

[woof woof]

You keep saying that but you're forgetting that IS allows you to pan.

As I've said, I think that this issue will be like sensor cleaning and maybe like AF too in that one day it'll be a standard option and even the traditionalist stick in the muds who always said that they'd never use it and it was completely useless will use it daily and no one will ever understand what all the fuss was about

 

[Dogfish_magnet]

You keep saying that but you're forgetting that IS allows you to pan.

As I've said, I think that this issue will be like sensor cleaning and maybe like AF too in that one day it'll be a standard option and even the traditionalist stick in the muds who always said that they'd never use it and it was completely useless will use it daily and no one will ever understand what all the fuss was about

What use is being able to pan at 24mm - you would mostly use a longer focal length lens when employing a panning technique and if you were compatent with your panning technique i dout you'd be messing around with slow IS.

 

[HoppyUK]

You keep saying that but you're forgetting that IS allows you to pan.

As I've said, I think that this issue will be like sensor cleaning and maybe like AF too in that one day it'll be a standard option and even the traditionalist stick in the muds who always said that they'd never use it and it was completely useless will use it daily and no one will ever understand what all the fuss was about

Please stop pointing out the obvious truth and being so sensible. This digital malarky will never catch on you know. Humping a three ton tripod for miles is the only way. Fact.

 

[boyfalldown]

You keep saying that but you're forgetting that IS allows you to pan.

As I've said, I think that this issue will be like sensor cleaning and maybe like AF too in that one day it'll be a standard option and even the traditionalist stick in the muds who always said that they'd never use it and it was completely useless will use it daily and no one will ever understand what all the fuss was about

I'm confused by this - I don't see many people saying IS isn't useful, just knowing when it is and isn't is good to know, and not using it as a fix all 'cause it ain't. Yes you can pan with it, but it won't stop someone blinking, you need a hiugher shutter speed for that

That's not a stick in the mud traditionalist approach, just simple fact, same as I wouldn't be without sensor cleaning, but I know once in a while I'll need a wet clean anyway.

 

[HoppyUK]

I'm confused by this - I don't see many people saying IS isn't useful, just knowing when it is and isn't is good to know, and not using it as a fix all 'cause it ain't. Yes you can pan with it, but it won't stop someone blinking, you need a hiugher shutter speed for that

That's not a stick in the mud traditionalist approach, just simple fact, same as I wouldn't be without sensor cleaning, but I know once in a while I'll need a wet clean anyway.

Have you read your own posts Hugh? Like post #15.

 

[boyfalldown]

Have you read your own posts Hugh? Like post #15.

I know what I said Richard and I'll stand by it. Just to remind you

I can never understand why people want IS on mid range zooms. It adds weight and expense to a lens and doesn't solve the issue of subject movement anyway. For landcapes you'll be using a tripod and for any sort of low light people work you'll have the shutter at speeds where camera shake shouldn't be an issue to avoid them moving

I've bolded the mid about mid range zooms for you. Thats the key part of that post, did you miss it? I still don't see whats difficult about this, I can hand hold my non vr 24-70 well past the point where subject movement is a big issue. For me, IS/VR on these lenses is a waste of time, because my subjects move, and if I'm going to be shooting any sort of landscape that looks as though (weather or ND grads for example) I'll need to go below about 1/30 I can manage to carry a tripod - mostly because I know I'll be shooting well below shutter speeds IS can help.

Please could you also do me the courtesy of deliberatly implying I'm saying something you know I'm not

 

[18-270]

mid range fast zooms don't need VR to pan. A non VR etc shot with a 24-70 to show it's not needed.

 

[HoppyUK]

I know what I said Richard and I'll stand by it. Just to remind you



I've bolded the mid about mid range zooms for you. Thats the key part of that post, did you miss it? I still don't see whats difficult about this, I can hand hold my non vr 24-70 well past the point where subject movement is a big issue. For me, IS/VR on these lenses is a waste of time, because my subjects move, and if I'm going to be shooting any sort of landscape that looks as though (weather or ND grads for example) I'll need to go below about 1/30 I can manage to carry a tripod - mostly because I know I'll be shooting well below shutter speeds IS can help.

Please could you also do me the courtesy of deliberatly implying I'm saying something you know I'm not

Let's be clear then.

If IS/VR is beneficial for long lenses, but not for shorter focal lengths, at what point does a "waste of time" become a benefit?

Does every subject move that needs an exposure time of 1/8sec or 1/4sec? Can you hand-hold a 50mm or 70mm lens at the 1/focal length rule, and get consistently 100% sharp results? Very few people can - I can't, 75% maybe.

What is the extra cost and weight penalty that you refer to? Like for like? If you can find a realistic comparison, how does the extra weight and cost compare to carrying a tripod?

 

[boyfalldown]

Let's be clear then.

If IS/VR is beneficial for long lenses, but not for shorter focal lengths, at what point does a "waste of time" become a benefit?

Does every subject move that needs an exposure time of 1/8sec or 1/4sec? Can you hand-hold a 50mm or 70mm lens at the 1/focal length rule, and get consistently 100% sharp results? Very few people can - I can't, 75% maybe.

What is the extra cost and weight penalty that you refer to? Like for like? If you can find a realistic comparison, how does the extra weight and cost compare to carrying a tripod?

my rule of thumb for a wedding is never to drop below 1/60 at any focal length - subject movement is a far bigger issue for me at speeds below that. I can get consistantly sharp results using 50mm or 24-70 like at those speeds.

That means of course that using, say a 70-200 theres a great advantage to IS, but telephoto focal lengths are where IS is at its most useful - not short/medium focal lengths

I don't understand why you constantly argue there is no weight/cost penalty with an IS unit. It must weigh something and cost something to include in the lens as you've pointed out there isn't an exact comparison on the market - but assuming no penalty in these areas is daft.

I'm afraid I don't get your point about subject movement at 1/8 or 1/4 shutter speeds here

Does every subject move that needs an exposure time of 1/8sec or 1/4sec?

can you explain - can you also explain why IS brings so many benefits at mid/short ranges atleast for you? What do you shoot hand held at 1/4 to 1/8 that IS brings you so many benefits at this range for?

 

[HoppyUK]

my rule of thumb for a wedding is never to drop below 1/60 at any focal length - subject movement is a far bigger issue for me at speeds below that. I can get consistantly sharp results using 50mm or 24-70 like at those speeds.

That means of course that using, say a 70-200 theres a great advantage to IS, but telephoto focal lengths are where IS is at its most useful - not short/medium focal lengths

I don't understand why you constantly argue there is no weight/cost penalty with an IS unit. It must weigh something and cost something to include in the lens as you've pointed out there isn't an exact comparison on the market - but assuming no penalty in these areas is daft.

I'm afraid I don't get your point about subject movement at 1/8 or 1/4 shutter speeds here



can you explain - can you also explain why IS brings so many benefits at mid/short ranges atleast for you? What do you shoot hand held at 1/4 to 1/8 that IS brings you so many benefits at this range for?

That's a good rule of thumb, and I try to use something similar myself. But sometimes the light doesn't allow it, sometimes the extra ISO isn't there, or the f/number, or the flash option. So what do you do? In that situation, IS will at least increase your options and if there is actually no so subject movement, it's a no penalty choice.

My only disagreement is your apparently universal assertion that IS for mid-range zooms is a waste of time. Maybe it is for you, but not for all subjects and not for all photographers who do not have such a steady hand or don't hold the camera well, in live view for example.

I have never said that IS either costs nothing or weighs nothing. Now who is misquoting who? I have acknowledged that it is literally true, and gave an example. I have also said that it is not a significant penalty, even if you can accurately assess it and there are indeed examples where the opposite is true; I gave an example of that too.

If you were to say that IS is less beneficial at shorter focal lengths I would agree with you, but you have not said that. You've said it is a waste of time and with substantial extra cost and weight, claims that clearly don't stand much scrutiny.

 

[goldenlight]

Here's an example of IS being invaluable to me when using a moderate focal length. !/8th sec @ f3.2, 33mm (66mm full frame equivalent) ISO 3200



So whilst I agree that IS is less important at short to moderate focal lengths than it is with longer lenses it certainly does have a place. Landscapes, not so much. I really feel that if you are going to the bother of carrying a FF camera for landscapes you should seriously consider a tripod perhaps as essential.

The point is that IS would be really nice to have and it is a shame that it's not available in the lens the OP is interested in. However, Dave, if you have good reasons for wanting/needing full frame I wouldn't let the lack of IS on one particular lens be a deal breaker.

Out of interest, why do you feel the need for full frame? How will it benefit your particular type of photography?

 

[HoppyUK]

Here's an example of IS being invaluable to me when using a moderate focal length. !/8th sec @ f3.2, 33mm (66mm full frame equivalent) ISO 3200

<snip>

That's a really nice example too John

 

[TriggerHappy]

That's a nice shot John. One to treasure if that's your son!

I thought I'd attempt the same focal length of 66mm equivalent (although that meant shooting at 44mm on a 1.5x crop sensor rather than 33mm) at the same 1/8th shutter speed and here's the result:

That's unedited apart from being a 100% crop from this page on my laptop and there's very little camera shake visible. A laptop screen probably wasn't the perfect subject though! No cheating, just arms tucked into my chest and some steady breathing from a sitting position with no back support. Similar to your position I'd guess.

Point being that good technique makes those slow shutter speeds possible even at 66mm.

Of course one could argue that if I can do that without IS/VR I can go 4 stops slower with VR. That should mean a 2 second exposure if I did my sums correctly. Ooh the possibilities!

Edit: Exif isn't showing I don't think but here's the flickr link to check for yourself http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamierphotography/4809796141/meta/

 

[goldenlight]

Hi Jamie,

I wouldn't say it's impossible to shoot at that speed without IS, as you have proved, but IS certainly improves your chances. It is particularly invaluable for me as I have Parkinson's and am nowhere near as steady as I once was!

Regarding my picture (and thanks for your comments), it was shot at ISO 3200 with the E-3, which is pushing it a bit. It could be argued that one of the latest FF cameras at ISO 25000 without IS would give pretty much the same result, or better, with a shutter speed of 1/60th sec.

 

[woof woof]

Dogfish...

Who mentioned panning at 24mm?? I didn't.

Soz mate, I'm only replying as you quoted me but I just feel that in this thread you've repeatedly tried to put words into my mouth and have seemed to deliberately misunderstand me so...I've had enough. Sorry. :shrug: But I'm outa this thead...

 

[Dogfish_magnet]

Dogfish...

Who mentioned panning at 24mm?? I didn't.

Soz mate, I'm only replying as you quoted me but I just feel that in this thread you've repeatedly tried to put words into my mouth and have seemed to deliberately misunderstand me so...I've had enough. Sorry. :shrug: But I'm outa this thead...

As this thread is all about the 24-70's lack of is and you keep banging on about panning with IS - so to keep you happy


What use is being able to pan with a 24mm - 70mm f2.78 - you would mostly use a longer focal length lens when employing a panning technique and if you were competent with your panning technique i doubt you'd be messing around with slow IS

 

[mipevo6]

Hand held at 1/20 @15mm F8 ISO 2000

Would this be sharp with no IS ? not sure...

wide angle tube

I waited till it really got moving



a quickr pickr post