Any plumbers about?

[wippers]

Hi All - Just after a bit of advice really about a couple of problems I'm having with my central heating system which are driving me insane!

1. Vibrating pipes? When the heating is on I can hear the pipes vibrating somewhere in the walls. It last for maybe 10-20 seconds and then abruptly stops (even though the pump is still running). This will continue on and off for ages whilst the heating is on and is particularly annoying. Any ideas?

2. I can hear water swishing around the pipes when the pump is running and heating on. I have had some new rads fitted this year and when they first went in, everything was nice and quiet but slowly over time, there seems to be more and more air in the system? Bleeding the rads doesn't seem to make any difference, even though there is air in them from time to time. Again, any ideas?

This is on a 20 year old standard heating system with a hot water tank etc (not a combi)

Any help to prevent my complete insanity would be greatly appreciated.

Gareth

 

[srichards]

Ear muffs?

 

[wippers]

Ear muffs?

Hmmmm. Not quite the help I was looking for!

 

[srichards]

Is it a sealed system or a vented one with some gubbins in the loft?

I'd contact whoever stuck the rads in and get them back over to find out why it has become noisy. It'll be quicker than waiting for sensible answers on here

 

[MatBin]

Did you bleed all the rads or just the new ones? Vibrating pipes or expanding pipes, all pipes will expand if they are allowed to cool down then heat up.
Many many plumbers seem to forget this and dont put sound proofing/sliding material under the pipes when they lay them on the joists, or have geat big long straight runs and then the pipe expands and pushes the elbow at the end near the radiator into something solid and this causes vibration as the expanding pipe has nowhere to go.

Only solution to item 2 is to pull up the floor boards find the offending part and allow it the freedom to move without creaking along the joists, I insulated mine with towelling, small pieces of carpet will also do teh trick if you have the room..
Of course my plumber decided to keep the feed and return pipes apart using (wood) screws, the expanding/contracting pipes eventually wearing away at the contact point with the screw head and flooding the ceiling. I'm sure there are many good plumbers out there though.

 

[Steve Smith]

Probably both caused by air in the system.

Most boilers now have automatic vents but you will probably need to bleed the radiators and re-pressurise the system if it's a combi boiler.

EDIT: Should have read more of your post. You will probably need to bleed the radsiators a few more times to get all of the air out. And check the header tank to make sure it still has water in it. Sometimes the ballcock gets stuck and the tank goes dry meaning that there is no water to replace the air you are removing.


Steve.

 

[kendo1]

Yep: pipe supports, lagging or foam insulation, bleed the radiators. Check that the pump is bled too- there's normally a screw on the front for you to loosen. There's bound to be something on Google for your pump.

 

[Nod]

Probably just air in the system - it can hide in all sorts of places, not just in the rads. However, it could be a hot spot in the boiler's heat exchanger which is causing localised boiling. If it's microbore (small pipes to the rads), it may be particularly prone to air problems. Creaking is a different problem and is usually the pipes expanding and rubbing on the joists they pass through. The ultimate answer is to lift the floor and enlarge the holes so some padding (old carpet or similar) can be put in to stop the friction but that's often not a simple job!

 

[Martyn D]

Check your pump speed, if it's on speed 3 and you have an open vented system on start up the pump can pull water from the header tank and push up and over the open vent, introducing fresh water continually will cause increased air is system...if you have a sealed system ignore all I've written though that's doubtful as air in sealed systems is a lot less likely

 

[Martyn D]

Another option...
A 20 year old system will need cleaning, ignore any advice about a power flush but get the system cleaned...add a cleaning agent, use heating as normal and after 5 days drain out from each downstairs rad, refill and drain, refill and drain again....refill and add an inhibitor

 

[Hacker]

Gareth, we had exactly the same problem for years with different plumbers trying to find the cause, there was air in the system and every so often the pipes would start banging and crashing and quite often within a couple of days the boiler would break down - usually on a bank holiday weekend or in the middle of winter. We were also having to replace the pump every 2-3 years.
Last year we bit the bullet and put in a Vaillant combi boiler which meant a lot of the pipework was removed and ever since then we have had an efficient and effective heating system. Just wish we had done it years ago.

 

[wippers]

Cheers for all the advise so far. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to pull up the floor boards etc to sort the vibrating out, but it looks like there's no short cut and that looks like what I'll have to do.

The system was emptied when the new rads went in and we didn't have any problems. Since then, the new rads don't seem to need bleeding, just the last one (or first one I'm not sure) in the system that has always needed regular bleeding.

The plumber did leave the pump on speed 1 but it didn't seem to be heating the rads very well so I put it on 2. Should I perhaps have left this on 1?

I'll have a look in the header tank in the loft and make sure there's plenty of water in it. I have noticed it dripping sometimes out of the overflow pipe just under the eaves too the last few days.

 

[wippers]

Gareth, we had exactly the same problem for years with different plumbers trying to find the cause, there was air in the system and every so often the pipes would start banging and crashing and quite often within a couple of days the boiler would break down - usually on a bank holiday weekend or in the middle of winter. We were also having to replace the pump every 2-3 years.
Last year we bit the bullet and put in a Vaillant combi boiler which meant a lot of the pipework was removed and ever since then we have had an efficient and effective heating system. Just wish we had done it years ago.

I think that will have to wait until I have the funds, although that is certainly what I would like to do eventually. I imagine it's an expensive job.

 

[Suvv]

The connections to the new rads may need tightening slightly.
Make sure that you bleed rads with the heating switched off.
If pipes are tight going through floorboards a bit of talc. powder can reduce creaking noises for a while.

 

[kendo1]

I have noticed it dripping sometimes out of the overflow pipe just under the eaves too the last few days.

This just means you have to replace the washer in the ballcock- a very easy job.
Check online if you're not sure about it, there are loads of 'how to' vids on Youtube. It helps to have the correct washer before you start.

 

[kendo1]

...and don't put nails or screws through the pipes and cables when you put the floor back down!

 

[Hacker]

I'll have a look in the header tank in the loft and make sure there's plenty of water in it. I have noticed it dripping sometimes out of the overflow pipe just under the eaves too the last few days.

Ours was doing that as well and none of the plumbers could get to the bottom of it, it started as a drip which was constant even after replacing the ballcock, at times it was streaming out like a tap.

The boiler cost about £2k to supply and fit, it so much quieter and the house actually warms up now as well! We decided on a combi as with two teenage sons that is at least four showers a day which was no good with our old system. We also got a five year guarantee on the Vaillant.

 

[Nod]

I think that will have to wait until I have the funds, although that is certainly what I would like to do eventually. I imagine it's an expensive job.

After several years of putting up with crashing and banging caused by boiling, I bit the bullet last year and had a new boiler put in. IIRC, the total bill for supply and fit along with a towel rail rad and new bathroom taps and alteration to the flue was well under two grand. It helped that we got mates' rates but even full price would have been worth it! The past year has seen a drop in bills despite the price hikes.

 

[Martyn D]

The dripping from the overflow is unlikely to be the ball valve otherwise it would be all the time...more likely the air in the system is causing a resistance and the water is pumping over the header tank via the expansion pipe, one other small possibility...if the storage tank is higher than the header tank you can get a pin hole in the coil in the cylinder and water will back feed into the header tank.
When you vent the upstairs rads are you getting water out?

 

[Martyn D]

Ours was doing that as well and none of the plumbers could get to the bottom of it, it started as a drip which was constant even after replacing the ballcock, at times it was streaming out like a tap.

The boiler cost about £2k to supply and fit, it so much quieter and the house actually warms up now as well! We decided on a combi as with two teenage sons that is at least four showers a day which was no good with our old system. We also got a five year guarantee on the Vaillant.

One of my favourite boilers but, if you get offered the extended warranty then take it or get some kind of cover as the diverter valve will leak out of the spindle, is a know fault, now they've changed the design but as always, will never admit to it being a known fault and do a free fix.

 

[BRASH]

It is worth considering 365 break down cover too. Starts about £10-£15 per month. Can be a god send for emergencies, especially in winter.

 

[Hacker]

It is worth considering 365 break down cover too. Starts about £10-£15 per month. Can be a god send for emergencies, especially in winter.

Who do you use Brash?

 

[BRASH]

Who do you use Brash?

Our boiler is still under guarantee so don't have one just now. Before the boiler was condemned it was a local company from Aberdeen. Probably go with Scottish/British Gas when we renew this time tho.

 

[kendo1]

The dripping from the overflow is unlikely to be the ball valve otherwise it would be all the time...

Not necessarily. I fixed my next door neighbour's tank a few weeks ago. It was intermittent. And again a few months ago, a customer's overflow tank was dripping every now and then.
Both cases were caused by damaged washers.

Though in this case... some investigation will need to be done.

 

[Steve Smith]

This reminds me of a story my father told me a few years ago. He used to be a central heating system designer (not a plumber or installer) in the days when the system for all public buildings had to be shown on the building plans and specified right down to each fitting used and lengths of pipe, etc.

One day he received a phone call from a woman who had just had a system fitted. She was complaining about a strange noise. Three times he sent out a fitter to check out the system but no fault was found. After a fourth call he went out himself and sat in the woman's kitchen drinking tea with the instruction given to let him know as soon as the system made a sound.

About half an hour later, there was a small sound followed by the women stating "that's it".

My father's response was "madam, that's your fridge!". She was billed for the four visits.

And on the subject of vibrating pipes, on an old system, it is sometimes possible for the pump to start up before a valve is fully open causing a knock. A few years ago, I had to build a five second delay circuit to put in line with my parents' pump to stop this happening.

On old systems, there are usually two valves, one for heating and one for hot water. The timer switches the valve on and a set of contacts turn on the boiler and pump when either valve is open so this shouldn't happen.

However, if you have a diverter valve rather than individual valves, it is possible.

If the vibration is always for a short time and always the same time (few seconds) after the boiler has fired up, I would look to this as a potential cause.


Steve.

 

[mex]

Another option...
A 20 year old system will need cleaning, ignore any advice about a power flush but get the system cleaned...add a cleaning agent, use heating as normal and after 5 days drain out from each downstairs rad, refill and drain, refill and drain again....refill and add an inhibitor

Sorry fella,but cleaning the system as the above could cause you more problems than it will cure.

Cheers for all the advise so far. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to pull up the floor boards etc to sort the vibrating out, but it looks like there's no short cut and that looks like what I'll have to do.

The system was emptied when the new rads went in and we didn't have any problems. Since then, the new rads don't seem to need bleeding, just the last one (or first one I'm not sure) in the system that has always needed regular bleeding.

The plumber did leave the pump on speed 1 but it didn't seem to be heating the rads very well so I put it on 2. Should I perhaps have left this on 1?

I'll have a look in the header tank in the loft and make sure there's plenty of water in it. I have noticed it dripping sometimes out of the overflow pipe just under the eaves too the last few days.

The overflow driping could be caused by a blockage in one of the pipes in your heating system,causing it to 'prime'. When the plumber drained the system down,I wonder did he have difficulty refilling it?maybe he left the pump on settting 1 because it is priming on a higher speed? Considering all of the symptoms you have described my guess is that the coldfeed (usually a 15mm pipe from the bottom of the header tank to just below the pump) is blocked or partially blocked,when the pump runs it will then push the system water back up into the header tank and out through the overflow,drawing air back in at the same time. Run your heating system and go into the loft,have a butchers into the header tank,is there water dripping from (usually 22mm and shaped like a walking stick handle) the open vent? is the water in the header tank rusty brown or black? I'm affraid if you find any of the fore-mentioned your best bet is get a heating engineer in to cut out and renew the coldfeed or blockage and Powerflush/chemically treat the system,not cheap but if its done correctly it will only need doing once. If the water in your header tank is clear,it might be something simple,check the ball valve to see if it is dripping.

 

[DorsetDude]

It is worth considering 365 break down cover too. Starts about £10-£15 per month. Can be a god send for emergencies, especially in winter.

I tend to disagree with this, as its just another way for energy companies to get more into their coffers from more direct debits from worried punters. If you're worried a better bet is to set up an account with your bank, call it "boiler savings" or something and direct debit into it £10-£15 a month instead. Theres a good chance you wont need to touch it for ages. When/if the boiler goes wrong just get British gas out on a one off fix and take the money from your account.
All these "its only a £10" a month direct debits soon add up. Nip em in the bud.

 

[Martyn D]

Sorry fella,but cleaning the system as the above could cause you more problems than it will cure.



The overflow driping could be caused by a blockage in one of the pipes in your heating system,causing it to 'prime'. When the plumber drained the system down,I wonder did he have difficulty refilling it?maybe he left the pump on settting 1 because it is priming on a higher speed? Considering all of the symptoms you have described my guess is that the coldfeed (usually a 15mm pipe from the bottom of the header tank to just below the pump) is blocked or partially blocked,when the pump runs it will then push the system water back up into the header tank and out through the overflow,drawing air back in at the same time. Run your heating system and go into the loft,have a butchers into the header tank,is there water dripping from (usually 22mm and shaped like a walking stick handle) the open vent? is the water in the header tank rusty brown or black? I'm affraid if you find any of the fore-mentioned your best bet is get a heating engineer in to cut out and renew the coldfeed or blockage and Powerflush/chemically treat the system,not cheap but if its done correctly it will only need doing once. If the water in your header tank is clear,it might be something simple,check the ball valve to see if it is dripping.

Tut tut....you need to have a rethink and give proper advice.
Power flushing a 20 year old system is a bad thing, don't believe me?...ask any manufacturer, or even any experienced heating engineer!
Only last week I went to a system that some "dodgy plumber" had recommended and carried out a power flush on a few months back, by doing so he'd loosened the bits off the inside of the old rads.
It doesn't take a genius to work out that rusty bits of metal won't flow down a micro bore pipe so will block it or half block it off.......so.....if you want to carry on doing your power flushes on old systems then the best of luck, keep a bit of cash aside when you get called back to renew all the pipework

 

[Martyn D]

I tend to disagree with this, as its just another way for energy companies to get more into their coffers from more direct debits from worried punters. If you're worried a better bet is to set up an account with your bank, call it "boiler savings" or something and direct debit into it £10-£15 a month instead. Theres a good chance you wont need to touch it for ages. When/if the boiler goes wrong just get British gas out on a one off fix and take the money from your account.
All these "its only a £10" a month direct debits soon add up. Nip em in the bud.

Or better still....check the home insurance, many people don't even noticed they've paid an extra tenner or so for "home emergency" and having no hot water or heating will be classed as a home emergency, depending which company the insurance is with claims may be limited to £250 but with some it's a £1000.00 +

 

[mex]

Tut tut....you need to have a rethink and give proper advice.
Power flushing a 20 year old system is a bad thing, don't believe me?...ask any manufacturer, or even any experienced heating engineer!
Only last week I went to a system that some "dodgy plumber" had recommended and carried out a power flush on a few months back, by doing so he'd loosened the bits off the inside of the old rads.
It doesn't take a genius to work out that rusty bits of metal won't flow down a micro bore pipe so will block it or half block it off.......so.....if you want to carry on doing your power flushes on old systems then the best of luck, keep a bit of cash aside when you get called back to renew all the pipework

I am an experienced heating engineer. Over 30years in fact, apprenticeship served with Wales gas as it was know then, 16 years for Worcester and now working rather succesfully for myself,installing repairing and POWERFLUSHING, I thank you very much for your concern.I will not however, bother asking one of my very many friends and collegues in the trade,nor shall I bother calling one of the many manufacturers out there for their advice on powerflushing,needless to say, if you have a read of any installation instruction document for a new boiler,it will most likely state that before installing a new boiler to a system 20 years old or other wise,the system must be flushed. I would ask what is your specialist field?

I read that you seem to think that "rusty bits of metal" would be going around (or not in this case) the system? clearly you know absolutely nothing about the mechanics and chemistry of powerflushing or the reasons or symptoms for carrying it out, I am glad however that the general public can rely on super heroes like your goodself to save them from all the "dodgy plumbers" out there.

 

[wippers]

Well I've managed to stop the leak with a replacement washer (which I should have done in the first place!) Now on to the vibrating pipes.........

 

[Martyn D]

I am an experienced heating engineer. Over 30years in fact, apprenticeship served with Wales gas as it was know then, 16 years for Worcester and now working rather succesfully for myself,installing repairing and POWERFLUSHING, I thank you very much for your concern.I will not however, bother asking one of my very many friends and collegues in the trade,nor shall I bother calling one of the many manufacturers out there for their advice on powerflushing,needless to say, if you have a read of any installation instruction document for a new boiler,it will most likely state that before installing a new boiler to a system 20 years old or other wise,the system must be flushed. I would ask what is your specialist field?

I read that you seem to think that "rusty bits of metal" would be going around (or not in this case) the system? clearly you know absolutely nothing about the mechanics and chemistry of powerflushing or the reasons or symptoms for carrying it out, I am glad however that the general public can rely on super heroes like your goodself to save them from all the "dodgy plumbers" out there.

Well...with respect to wippers as don't want to clog his thread up i think it's best to agree to disagree and not have a disagreement in a thread and leave it there....so.....on that note i'll carry on doing things in a correct and professional manner and leave you to do things your way
But...so you know for the future and don't mess up, have a read of what "Fernox" say in the method statement

Condition of an Existing System

It is important to note that powerflushing is not appropriate for all existing domestic central heating systems. Care should be taken with older installations, particularly if there is evidence of previous corrosion on radiators or pipework. Powerflushing can accelerate leaks in radiators, simply through the removal of corrosion debris if insufficient base metal remains.
The installer should therefore always ensure that the customer is aware of the risk of accelerating leakage in ageing or corroded systems due to powerflushing.

Fernox cannot accept responsibility for damage caused to ageing and corroded systems as a result of powerflushing, or for the inappropriate use of Fernox products within single feed, indirectly heated storage systems.

 

[mex]

that is an interesting quote you have managed to trawl up,but please tell us what type of systems Fernox (and all the other flushing/inhibiting chemical manufacturers for that matter) are suggesting cannot be flushed,and try and answer without googling it!! Mate, I come accross people like you on a monthly basis,who know absolutely jack but have an opinion on it.

 

[Martyn D]

that is an interesting quote you have managed to trawl up,but please tell us what type of systems Fernox (and all the other flushing/inhibiting chemical manufacturers for that matter) are suggesting cannot be flushed,and try and answer without googling it!! Mate, I come accross people like you on a monthly basis,who know absolutely jack but have an opinion on it.

lol....i think the Fernox method statement shows who knows what here....go on their website, its there for you to read and learn how to do a job correctly.
Read it...it explains what types not to powerflush.....i'd guess they do training courses aswell that may help you out
I've also learnt that the ones that usually go around throwing insults and accusations have much to hide.

 

[mex]

Martyn, I am still waiting for you to be honest and tell us what your field of expertise is regarding heating systems and flushing as you seem all too quick to copy & paste bits from Manufaturers websites (and if truth be known Fernox is not that good anyway,but I guess you knew that anyway).so over to you Superman,what is your field? have you served an apprenticeship? do you have the qualifications? have you been on any training courses to be able to dismiss so vehemently the process used and recommended by boiler manufacturers,heating & plumbing institutions and soon to be building regulatory authorities?

 

[Martyn D]

Martyn, I am still waiting for you to be honest and tell us what your field of expertise is regarding heating systems and flushing as you seem all too quick to copy & paste bits from Manufaturers websites (and if truth be known Fernox is not that good anyway,but I guess you knew that anyway).so over to you Superman,what is your field? have you served an apprenticeship? do you have the qualifications? have you been on any training courses to be able to dismiss so vehemently the process used and recommended by boiler manufacturers,heating & plumbing institutions and soon to be building regulatory authorities?

So...you want me to justify me being correct by listing my qualifications?.......if you really are desperate to know then feel free to pm me as this has clogged the thread up enough.
Oh...and look again in the benchmark book, manufacturers stated flushing, there is never a mention of power flushing

 

[Steve Smith]

That Fernox statement doesn't say it shouldn't be done. It says care should be taken when dealing with older systems - which is quite good advice.

These older vented systems would have spent all their working lives at a very low pressure so it is wise to be cautious when flushing out with potentially higher pressure water as there might be something somewhere which whilst fine at low pressure, could then spring a leak when subjected to high pressure.

I think Fernox are covering themselves for every eventuality, regardless how unlikely with the bit about insufficient base metal remains as it's very unlikely that a radiator would have corroded away to almost nothing from within.


Steve.

 

[mex]

No need for listing your qualifactions mate,the board is not long enough for that. All I am asking is with what authority do you "ignore any advice about a power flush"? as you seem to know little about it.

 

[chphotos]

Mex , rather an aggressive tone. Powerflushing is OK on some, but not all, systems. And some systems can't be satisfactorily Powerflushed. Most boiler manufacturers do require systems to be flushed before a new boiler is fitted, but this does not necessarily mean Powerflushing. Correct system maintenance with regular checking and topping up of a inhibitor takes away the need for Powerflushing. It's a shame that this doesn't happen more. And Martyn's advice is quite sound for older systems. Oh, and before you ask or question me, I've got 36 years experience in the industry. Just saying.

 

[Martyn D]

No need for listing your qualifactions mate,the board is not long enough for that. All I am asking is with what authority do you "ignore any advice about a power flush"? as you seem to know little about it.

Nigel....this is just going round in circles....you say power flush an older system i say don't, its as simple as that.
ok, i'll ask where you have seen that a system must be power flushed? How about you ask Worcester Tech if were there 16 years and see what their answer is.

Yes, i have copied from manufacturers website, simply to show you that my words are correct, how about another example....
I mentioned earlier in the thread about micro-bore, forget about Fernox, lets see what Sentinal have to say the.....

Powerflushing is suitable for most common types of central heating system, the only exceptions are Primatic, Micro Bore, Single Pipe and those with Twin Entry radiator valves. It is a highly effective and efficient way to clean a fouled system. The principle is to create a powerful clean water flow to remove debris from the system.

Just for the record I started my apprenticeship in 1976, so have a few years experience