Aperture/DOF question (Tinhat at the ready)

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Andy
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Ok time for my first silly question of 2010 :D

With Depth of Field does it relate to a physical amount. I.E if F/2.8 gave you 5 inches from front of subject to back in focus would F/4 give you 10 inches :thinking:

I really don't know if this makes sense :suspect: but its bugging me and i can't think how else to explain it



/runs away to wait for the mocking to begin :lol:/
 
Ok time for my first silly question of 2010 :D

With Depth of Field does it relate to a physical amount. I.E if F/2.8 gave you 5 inches from front of subject to back in focus would F/4 give you 10 inches :thinking:

I really don't know if this makes sense :suspect: but its bugging me and i can't think how else to explain it



/runs away to wait for the mocking to begin :lol:/

have a play here you can change all the components that control DOF and see the effects.


I type toooooo slow....
 
I think so, not sure of the mathematical implications though... :thinking:

Try this if you want to know the actual figures: linky
 
Drat. Beaten to it!

Twice!!! :razz:
 
No :D

Edit: of course there is a relationship, but it's not linear.
 
Cheers for the Links guys :) :thumbs: now my next question then is why does a shorter focal length give more in focus for the same aperture and subject distance than a longer lens :thinking:, eg at f/2.8 400mm at 50ft (a reasonable distance for football) gives 0.6ft but at f/2.8 135mm gives 5.4ft :thinking:
 
Cheers for the Links guys :) :thumbs: now my next question then is why does a shorter focal length give more in focus for the same aperture and subject distance than a longer lens :thinking:, eg at f/2.8 400mm at 50ft (a reasonable distance for football) gives 0.6ft but at f/2.8 135mm gives 5.4ft :thinking:

It doesn't per se. What it does is make the image smaller (lower magnification) and that is what creates greater DoF. Same as moving further away makes the subject smaller. If magnification is maintained by moving back but also fitting a longer lens, DoF remains the same.

Ahah! i was hoping you would pop by Hoppy, would you expand on your answer please :)

See edit.
 
It doesn't per se. What it does is make the image smaller (lower magnification) and that is what creates greater DoF. Same as moving further away makes the subject smaller. If magnification is maintained by moving back but also fitting a longer lens, DoF remains the same.



See edit.

Ok so does the Magnification of the lens effect the DOF then? like if you had two lens of the same focal length but a different magnification?
 
Ok so does the Magnification of the lens effect the DOF then? like if you had two lens of the same focal length but a different magnification?

No need to make DoF any more complicated than it has to be! There's another similar thread on here from today.

DoF is changed by only two things - magnification (size of the image on the sensor) and f/number.

Magnification (not to be confused with change of format) is altered by both focal length and subject distance, and if you change them both but maintain the same subject framing (magnification) DoF stays the same.

You can't have two lenses with the same focal length but different magnifications - image size is always the same. You can change the format, with changes the framing, but all that is doing is taking the same sized image and cropping it.

By the same token, compacts with very small sensors have loads of DoF for the same framing.
 
No need to make DoF any more complicated than it has to be! There's another similar thread on here from today.

DoF is changed by only two things - magnification (size of the image on the sensor) and f/number.

Magnification (not to be confused with change of format) is altered by both focal length and subject distance, and if you change them both but maintain the same subject framing (magnification) DoF stays the same.

You can't have two lenses with the same focal length but different magnifications - image size is always the same. You can change the format, with changes the framing, but all that is doing is taking the same sized image and cropping it.

By the same token, compacts with very small sensors have loads of DoF for the same framing.

Cheers Richard will have a look for the other thread and have a read though it :)
 
If you had two lenses of the same focal length they would give the same magnification.

DOF relies on a little thing called the circle of confusion. No this isn't a group of government spin doctors, but a simple fact that a point will appear to be sharp until it reaches a certain size. This circle changes dependant on the size of format you have. A cropped sensor DSLR will have a different C O F than a Full Frame one. A larger sensor Medium Format camera will also be different.

Can get a bit confusing ( no pun intended)

The maths can get a bit complicated, Wikipedia has a good technical explanation if you really want it.

But a simple answer is the magnification does affect the DOF, provided the lens aperture stays the same. A wide angle lens magnifies less than a telephoto hence the difference in DOF.

If you have an iPhone there is an App that will calculate DOF for you as well as sunset, and sunrise times ans a few other things
 
You can't have two lenses with the same focal length but different magnifications - image size is always the same.

Not quite sure thats right - you can have two lenses with the same focal lengths but different magnifications - don't the minimum focusing distances have a effect ?

just re-read your post - did you mean same focal length and same subject distance ?
 
Thanks John :) this is what i love about TP so many different people with knowledge of different areas that are happy to share :D

Edit: Where abouts in the Northwest are you? i live in Preston when i'm not working
 
Not quite sure thats right - you can have two lenses with the same focal lengths but different magnifications - don't the minimum focusing distances have a effect ?

At the same focusing distance, focal length and magnification are the same thing. Minimum focusing distance has no effect on that.
 
Cheers for the Links guys :) :thumbs: now my next question then is why does a shorter focal length give more in focus for the same aperture and subject distance than a longer lens :thinking:, eg at f/2.8 400mm at 50ft (a reasonable distance for football) gives 0.6ft but at f/2.8 135mm gives 5.4ft :thinking:

My reasoning would be that for the same aperture value, the physical opening is smaller on the shorter focal length lens, and we all know that a smaller hole gives you a greater depth of field.

But I'm probably talking out of my a....!
 
At the same focusing distance, focal length and magnification are the same thing. Minimum focusing distance has no effect on that.

you have ommitted "same focusing distance" from your original post and as i assumed that all lens would focus to infinity it leaves only minimum focus distance that can cause two lens of the same focal length to have different magnification values.
 
it was the same focusing distance info you left off your original post and as i assumed that all lens would focus to infinity it leaves only minimum focus distance that can cause two lens of the same focal length to have different magnification values.

See post #12 :)
 
I have -"You can't have two lenses with the same focal length but different magnifications " its incorrect :p

You can't have two lenses with the same focal length but different magnifications, when set at the same focusing distance.

Did I really need to say that? :D
 
You can't have two lenses with the same focal length but different magnifications, when set at the same focusing distance.

Did I really need to say that? :D

If it wasn't me it would only have been someone else ..........;)
 
Andy

I live effectively just down the road from you in Kirkham

Cheers

John C
 
Ok time for my first silly question of 2010 :D
With Depth of Field does it relate to a physical amount. I.E if F/2.8 gave you 5 inches from front of subject to back in focus would F/4 give you 10 inches :thinking:
I really don't know if this makes sense :suspect: but its bugging me and i can't think how else to explain it
/runs away to wait for the mocking to begin :lol:/

i saw all the calculator advice...but suspect its not so easy as that
you could photograph a ruler lying lengthways...
 
You can't have two lenses with the same focal length but different magnifications, when set at the same focusing distance.

Did I really need to say that? :D

Strictly speaking it's true....with a but!

If we're talking about the focal length as printed on the lens then it's not true. Due to the way lenses with internal focus work then the real focal length will normally decrease as the focal plane moves backwards from infinity. Differrent internal mechanisms will result in different "true" focal lengths at specific distances.....ie, an 85/1.2 will very likely have a different "true" focal length to an 85/1.8 when focussed in the same place....this will result in different magnifications.

Bob
 
You can't have two lenses with the same focal length but different magnifications, when set at the same focusing distance.

Did I really need to say that? :D
Optically you can, although for photography, it is a minor variable for lens designers.

In Optics, essentially it is taken into account once lenses are considered as "thick", which means that they are not being considered as just a front and rear surface (i.e. the power of a lens is contributed to from the front and rear surface and the thickness of the media)

Magnification (besides the surface power) is also a function of thickness and n (refractive index) Hence, objects on the floor floor a swimming pool floor are minified - even though the water presents a flat surface (i.e. no surface power). Opticians can (if they know and can be asked) produce lenses that alter retinal image size.. this is useful if the patent has a wildly different prescription in each eye. In Ophthalmic optics these are called "sized lenses"
 
Strictly speaking it's true....with a but!

If we're talking about the focal length as printed on the lens then it's not true. Due to the way lenses with internal focus work then the real focal length will normally decrease as the focal plane moves backwards from infinity. Differrent internal mechanisms will result in different "true" focal lengths at specific distances.....ie, an 85/1.2 will very likely have a different "true" focal length to an 85/1.8 when focussed in the same place....this will result in different magnifications.

Bob

Internal focusing is certainly a factor, though it is also true that quoted focal length only holds good for infinity focus anyway (like f/number). I believe that all lenses technically reduce focal length as they are focused closer, of any design, although the difference is fractional, like a couple of percent.

Internal focusing commonly often increases this to 10% or even more. A lot more in some cases - I've seen images taken with a Nikon 18-200 that even at quite modestly close distances were so far away from equivalent shots taken with a prime that you'd think they'd get done under the trades descriptions act.

I also believe this is the reason why some internal focusing macros when focused down to 1:1 do not lose the full two stops of light that theory (inverse square law) dictates that they should. What happens is that focal length is reduced to such an extent that the aperture becomes effectively larger and f/number is correspondingly reduced to the extent that some designs only show a reduction of 1.5 stops at 1:1.

And then again, the quoted focal length is moveable feast anyway, even at infinity. I'm not sure what the acceptable 'tolerance' is but manufacturers tend to keep very quiet about it - 300mm marked that turns out to be 270mm actual is quite common with some 'economy' designs. Economy of truth as well as cost.

All of which is a bit off the point of the thread, but it's yet another factor in the rather hit and miss application of depth of field calculations. The theory of it all is absolute, as it has to be, but is based on a whole series of asumptions that almost always don't fit very closely at all with what actually happens in practise, or with all the other significant changes that happen when you use a different lens, or change the shooting distance, or do almost anything different.

And here's another thing I've just remembered which is really anoying when working at close distance. Depth of field calculations, like those on www.DoFMaster.com take the distance measurement from the front element of the lens, whereas the focusing distances marked on the lens itself are taken from the focal plane. There can be a foot difference between the two, and that's a heck of a lot when you're close :eek:
 
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