Are any Micro Four Thirds cameras good enough for BIF yet?

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Billabong

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Let me start by saying that I know there are lots of forum threads regarding specific MFT cameras and BIF. I also know that there are some exceptionally talented photographers out there that regularly get good BIF results with all sorts of cameras. What I'm really trying to find out, however, is if an intermediate photographer were to use a MFT camera for BIF would they be slightly/very/totally frustrated in the performance vs a much heavier DSLR outfit? Is it only cameras like the E-M2 and GH5 that come close, or are others there too? I'm really interested in real life use rather than theoretical examples.

Can open, worms everywhere...
 
EM1ii is pretty much it.

Em1 works ok-ish on larger subjects but not totally reliable, this was taken with the EM1 and is part of a ca. 10 shot sequence of which all were in focus but the bird is flying across the frame, not in/out. I got this shot, which I love, but wish I'd had the EM1ii on this trip as I missed a few shots I could see would have been belters if the focus had locked on.

Bald Eagle, Glacier Bay by Ned Awty, on Flickr
 
Here's another from the same trip (with EM1), key thing is that the bird is big-ish in frame and shooting at 9fps to get at least some in focus , trying to lock onto Swallows buzzing about is futile.

Eagle by Ned Awty, on Flickr

I've not had a chance to use the EM1ii in similar conditions but I am pretty sure it would be a step change in performance, the AF is much improved.
 
The Panasonic GX8 is fantastic in every way apart from AF-C where it is dreadful. Bear in mind if you went the GH5 route you're tying yourself into the very latest Panasonic lenses to get the DFD focusing. Olympus (and other m4/3 brands) aren't supported by Panasonic for DFD focusing.

Nawty said:
EM1ii is pretty much it.

Em1 works ok-ish on larger subjects but not totally reliable, this was taken with the EM1 and is part of a ca. 10 shot sequence of which all were in focus but the bird is flying across the frame, not in/out. I got this shot, which I love, but wish I'd had the EM1ii on this trip as I missed a few shots I could see would have been belters if the focus had locked on.

Bald Eagle, Glacier Bay by Ned Awty, on Flickr
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@Nawty - interesting to see your comment re the OMD EM1 mk II. I'm starting to think about my upgrade path from my GX8. I definitely need something that has reliable AF-C, but the price of the OMD EM1 mk II opens up a whole range of other options. I certainly could not afford to shell out £1800 on a camera body for it to fall below my needs and expectations!

Simon.
 
srhmoto said:
The Panasonic GX8 is fantastic in every way apart from AF-C where it is dreadful. Bear in mind if you went the GH5 route you're tying yourself into the very latest Panasonic lenses to get the DFD focusing. Olympus (and other m4/3 brands) aren't supported by Panasonic for DFD focusing.



@Nawty - interesting to see your comment re the OMD EM1 mk II. I'm starting to think about my upgrade path from my GX8. I definitely need something that has reliable AF-C, but the price of the OMD EM1 mk II opens up a whole range of other options. I certainly could not afford to shell out £1800 on a camera body for it to fall below my needs and expectations!

Simon.
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If AFC is your primary concern then, still, m43 isn't the way to go - you can get a Nikon D500 and decent lens for the cost of the EM1ii, that's worth serious consideration.

For me though, the systems other benefits are more important than CAF, or at least the CAF on the EM1 was just about good enough and the EM1ii is plenty good enough for the times I need it. Being able to carry 24-800mm (FFE) in a small backpack (with a lot of that range at f/2.8) isn't anywhere near possible with any APSC system (or bigger).
 
Nawty said:
If AFC is your primary concern then, still, m43 isn't the way to go - you can get a Nikon D500 and decent lens for the cost of the EM1ii, that's worth serious consideration.

For me though, the systems other benefits are more important than CAF, or at least the CAF on the EM1 was just about good enough and the EM1ii is plenty good enough for the times I need it. Being able to carry 24-800mm (FFE) in a small backpack (with a lot of that range at f/2.8) isn't anywhere near possible with any APSC system (or bigger).
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Definitely not my primary concern, but it is something I need with a very active 5 year old little boy :) and occasional motorsport. I certainly recognise the other benefits you mention and do value them highly. I'm also really reluctant to give up my Oly 12-40 and 40-150 lenses. Hhmmm.
 
I think an EM1 would probably do you fine, perfect with the Pro lenses and CAF works pretty well on decent sized subjects, nice and cheap (relatively) too.

I can lend you mine to try if you like? it's sat there doing nothing since the EM1ii...
 
Nawty said:
I think an EM1 would probably do you fine, perfect with the Pro lenses and CAF works pretty well on decent sized subjects, nice and cheap (relatively) too.

I can lend you mine to try if you like? it's sat there doing nothing since the EM1ii...
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If (and it is still an if) I go for an EM1, it'll be the mk II :)
 
srhmoto said:
Definitely not my primary concern, but it is something I need with a very active 5 year old little boy :) and occasional motorsport. I certainly recognise the other benefits you mention and do value them highly. I'm also really reluctant to give up my Oly 12-40 and 40-150 lenses. Hhmmm.
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Motorsport shouldn't be too much of an issue as long as the cars aren't coming straight at you. Kids on the other hand..... I have the EM1 and D750 and the EM1 is quite a distance away in terms of AF-C speed and accuracy from my experience using pro lenses on both. I'd like to try out the EM1-II at some point though.
 
snerkler said:
Motorsport shouldn't be too much of an issue as long as the cars aren't coming straight at you. Kids on the other hand..... I have the EM1 and D750 and the EM1 is quite a distance away in terms of AF-C speed and accuracy from my experience using pro lenses on both. I'd like to try out the EM1-II at some point though.
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You've very eloquently described my dilemma re kids! If I'm going to be spending that much money, I want to be sure it delivers on all fronts.

For motorsport, it would have to be able to track head on or 3/4 shots like this

https://flic.kr/p/VWhXNV

I can get these by pre focusing ( as I did above), but I would like the flexibility of predictive AF-C again.

Simon.
 
srhmoto said:
You've very eloquently described my dilemma re kids! If I'm going to be spending that much money, I want to be sure it delivers on all fronts.

For motorsport, it would have to be able to track head on or 3/4 shots like this

https://flic.kr/p/VWhXNV

I can get these by pre focusing ( as I did above), but I would like the flexibility of predictive AF-C again.

Simon.
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You can obviously get pics like that and pics of kids with the EM1, but the top DSLRs make it easier, more reliable and give you more keepers. For this reason I can't recommend the EM1 over a DSLR for these kinds of shots. In fact, when you're used to a good DSLR it can become frustrating using AF-C on the EM1, especially waiting for initial acquisition. I'd suggest trying the EM1-II out if you definitely want M4/3. However, as mentioned previously the D500 is probably a better option.
 
Never owned the EM1-II but did have the EM-1 for a while. Loved it, but it left a lot to be desired when trying to focus on anything moving quickly. I've now progressed to a Nikon D810 (just sold it) and a Nikon D500. When it comes to AF-C the D500 turns the EM-1 (and the D810) into a paperweight. I have a friend who has just upgraded from D750 to a D500 and he too is amazed at the AF aquisition speed and tracking ability of the D500. If you don't mind the bulk and weight then the D500 is IMHO the way to go.
 
snerkler said:
You can obviously get pics like that and pics of kids with the EM1, but the top DSLRs make it easier, more reliable and give you more keepers. For this reason I can't recommend the EM1 over a DSLR for these kinds of shots. In fact, when you're used to a good DSLR it can become frustrating using AF-C on the EM1, especially waiting for initial acquisition. I'd suggest trying the EM1-II out if you definitely want M4/3. However, as mentioned previously the D500 is probably a better option.
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Brom said:
Never owned the EM1-II but did have the EM-1 for a while. Loved it, but it left a lot to be desired when trying to focus on anything moving quickly. I've now progressed to a Nikon D810 (just sold it) and a Nikon D500. When it comes to AF-C the D500 turns the EM-1 (and the D810) into a paperweight. I have a friend who has just upgraded from D750 to a D500 and he too is amazed at the AF aquisition speed and tracking ability of the D500. If you don't mind the bulk and weight then the D500 is IMHO the way to go.
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Thanks guys. I can't help thinking that the D500 might be a 'sledge hammer to crack a nut' for what I need, but we'll see in the fullness of time.

@Billabong - apologies if this has hijacked your thread a little (not my intention), but I guess it has a lot of relevance to your original question.

Simon.
 
Simon, I'm in exactly the same position as you. I love the size of my e-m1 and its lenses ( I'm down to the 9-18, 12-40 pro and 40-150 pro + TC ), the IBIS, the EVF, the electronic shutter, etc. I hate the battery life, I get frustrated by the inconsistent AF lock abilities. Regarding keepers, much of this is my fault as I'm constantly pushing my abilities with lower and lower shutter speeds to blur backgrounds when panning.

Mainly I'm shooting car meets / shows and motorsport with the Olympus now. I have the X100T + WCL for other stuff

So, do I go for the mk2 ( £1400 or so from HDEW ) or sell everything m43 and revert back to Nikon ? I guess my gear would realise £1500-£1700 Then I'm back to a heavier set up and sodding around with tuning lenses ( maybe ).
 
srhmoto said:
Thanks guys. I can't help thinking that the D500 might be a 'sledge hammer to crack a nut' for what I need, but we'll see in the fullness of time.

@Billabong - apologies if this has hijacked your thread a little (not my intention), but I guess it has a lot of relevance to your original question.

Simon.
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No reason why the D500 should be a "sledgehammer". AF is it's pièce de résistance but it's also a very good all round camera. I wouldn't call it a sledgehammer for BIF, kids and motorsport, more just the sensible choice ;)
 
srhmoto said:
@Billabong - apologies if this has hijacked your thread a little (not my intention), but I guess it has a lot of relevance to your original question.

Simon.
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No worries! Some interesting replies which echo my gut feeling. My interests are BIF (not really static birds), motor sports, landscape, macro & HDR. My thoughts are that the best solution for me at the moment is an APS-C MFT camera for the last 3 (like the Fuji X-T2/X-T20 or Sony A6300/6500) and a used 7D2 & used 400 F5.6L for the first 2. I already have a lowly Canon DSLR with some Canon lenses, hence the 7D2 is probably a better option for me.

It's a shame that even the E-M1 ii isn't up there with decent DSLRs yet for fast focusing, though I don't think it'll be too long before we see that situation change with a MFT camera...
 
if you're interested in the Fuji @ukaskew might be able to help for the X-T2, he has taken some great shots at Goodwood with it. For BiF, i don't know.

FYI, i don't have too many issue with my e-m1 for motorsports. Its not the focus speed, its the focus lock as if the camera sees something else with more contrast it can dive off and lock on that. Doesn't happen often, but when it does :mad: This, i believe, will be reduced with the mk2 where the focus area can be selected ie loose or tight to prevent it. I've not tried the mk2 so don't know how successful that is
 
Billabong said:
It's a shame that even the E-M1 ii isn't up there with decent DSLRs yet for fast focusing.
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It is, and it will get better with firmware updates, it just isn't up to the class leading AF of the D500 but it is equal/better than many lesser DSLRs. And, to be honest, not much is up to the D500 so it is hardly a fair benchmark.

EM1ii initial focus acquisition is miiiiiles better than the EM1, it just works. Point it at something, press to focus and it snaps to it.
 
Nawty said:
It is, and it will get better with firmware updates, it just isn't up to the class leading AF of the D500 but it is equal/better than many lesser DSLRs. And, to be honest, not much is up to the D500 so it is hardly a fair benchmark.

EM1ii initial focus acquisition is miiiiiles better than the EM1, it just works. Point it at something, press to focus and it snaps to it.
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Can;t wait for the EM1-II price to come down, sounds like I'll have to upgrade me Mark I at some point (y)
 
Nawty said:
EM1ii is pretty much it.

Em1 works ok-ish on larger subjects but not totally reliable, this was taken with the EM1 and is part of a ca. 10 shot sequence of which all were in focus but the bird is flying across the frame, not in/out. I got this shot, which I love, but wish I'd had the EM1ii on this trip as I missed a few shots I could see would have been belters if the focus had locked on.

Bald Eagle, Glacier Bay by Ned Awty, on Flickr
Click to expand...

That's a stunning shot!
 
srhmoto said:
The Panasonic GX8 is fantastic in every way apart from AF-C where it is dreadful. Bear in mind if you went the GH5 route you're tying yourself into the very latest Panasonic lenses to get the DFD focusing. Olympus (and other m4/3 brands) aren't supported by Panasonic for DFD focusing...
Click to expand...

I was originally looking at the G80 & Pana 100-400 but wondered if the GH5 might offer better performance than the G80? I'm not interested in video!
 
Nawty said:
If AFC is your primary concern then, still, m43 isn't the way to go - you can get a Nikon D500 and decent lens for the cost of the EM1ii, that's worth serious consideration...
Click to expand...

I've just looked on Amazon (UK) and the body price for those two cameras are very similar? If I went for a better DSLR I'd be tempted to get a 7D2 as I already have some Canon gear, albeit not top-flight!
 
Billabong said:
That's a stunning shot!
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Thanks, it's one of my faves but I can still remember my relief, as it took off to fly past me, that the camera locked on focus (EM1). Phew!

Billabong said:
I was originally looking at the G80 & Pana 100-400 but wondered if the GH5 might offer better performance than the G80? I'm not interested in video!
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Simon @srhmoto in this thread isn't getting the CAF performance he wants from the G80, GH5 might be better but only with Panny lenses and still not on a par with the EM1ii AND it is a big best, may as well get a DSLR IMHO.

Billabong said:
I've just looked on Amazon (UK) and the body price for those two cameras are very similar? If I went for a better DSLR I'd be tempted to get a 7D2 as I already have some Canon gear, albeit not top-flight!
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I was thinking of the grey market, thought I'd seen a D500 for £1400ish, didn't think the EM1ii had come down in price yet but it might have done.

In your situation I think a 7D2 is a good idea :)
 
£1400'ish will get you the em1 mk2 from hdew. E-inifinity have it at £1285 but I have no idea who they are ( apart from grey )
 
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Billabong said:
I was originally looking at the G80 & Pana 100-400 but wondered if the GH5 might offer better performance than the G80? I'm not interested in video!
Click to expand...

The GH5 should offer better performance than the G80 with its processing power and latest version of DFD. Just bear in mind you must use the latest Panasonic lenses (with 480fps focus speed) to get the best from it. That's not all Panny lenses, and none of the Oly lenses.

Nawty said:
Simon @srhmoto in this thread isn't getting the CAF performance he wants from the G80, GH5 might be better but only with Panny lenses and still not on a par with the EM1ii AND it is a big best, may as well get a DSLR IMHO. :)
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I use a GX8, so at least a generation behind the G80.

Simon.
 
snerkler said:
No reason why the D500 should be a "sledgehammer". AF is it's pièce de résistance but it's also a very good all round camera. I wouldn't call it a sledgehammer for BIF, kids and motorsport, more just the sensible choice ;)
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My 'sledgehammer' comment was made because I'm sure something like an 80D or D7200 would be more than good enough for my AF-C needs, and considerably cheaper than both the D500 and EM1 mk II.

Simon.
 
But would you really change, Simon ? Or are you curious as to whether there would be major improvements ?
 
damianmkv said:
But would you really change, Simon ? Or are you curious as to whether there would be major improvements ?
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That's a really good question Damian. My problem is that I feel I am up against the limits of the GX8 in quite a few areas now. So while I've no intention of replacing the camera in the short term (finances won't allow it apart from anything else), if I want to overcome some of these limitations and stay within the m4/3 format my choices are either the GH5 or the EM1 mk II. Both are serious money, and would be the most I've ever spent on a single piece of photographic equipment, so I have to be very, very sure they are going to deliver the improvements I want and need to see. What really hacked me off at the weekend, was that my GX8 and Oly 40-150mm f2.8 in plenty of light and with a totally uncluttered background (flat beach looking out to sea) just could not AF-C on my 5 year old jogging straight towards me (and before anyone questions my technique, I'll point out that I used to supply editorial images to Autosport Magazine and Motorsport News). If I sold my m4/3 stuff and added it to the circa £1.5 to £1.8k I'd have to spend on a GH5 or EM1 mk II, I could end up with a really nice DSLR system that I know would deliver what I want, albeit at the (potentially significant) penalty of size and weight. However, no good having a small, light system if you end up frustrated with it because it can't deliver what you ask of it or it is holding you back in some way (even if the holding back bit is perception).

As I said, right now I'm in no hurry to do anything. However, Q1 / Q2 will probably see me doing something. Time will tell!!

I'll be interested to see which way you go too!

Simon.
 
srhmoto said:
My 'sledgehammer' comment was made because I'm sure something like an 80D or D7200 would be more than good enough for my AF-C needs, and considerably cheaper than both the D500 and EM1 mk II.

Simon.
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The D7200 is a great camera, and yes more than adequate for most applications. The D500 is better built and feels nicer in the hand though (imo).
 
srhmoto said:
That's a really good question Damian. My problem is that I feel I am up against the limits of the GX8 in quite a few areas now. So while I've no intention of replacing the camera in the short term (finances won't allow it apart from anything else), if I want to overcome some of these limitations and stay within the m4/3 format my choices are either the GH5 or the EM1 mk II. Both are serious money, and would be the most I've ever spent on a single piece of photographic equipment, so I have to be very, very sure they are going to deliver the improvements I want and need to see. What really hacked me off at the weekend, was that my GX8 and Oly 40-150mm f2.8 in plenty of light and with a totally uncluttered background (flat beach looking out to sea) just could not AF-C on my 5 year old jogging straight towards me (and before anyone questions my technique, I'll point out that I used to supply editorial images to Autosport Magazine and Motorsport News). If I sold my m4/3 stuff and added it to the circa £1.5 to £1.8k I'd have to spend on a GH5 or EM1 mk II, I could end up with a really nice DSLR system that I know would deliver what I want, albeit at the (potentially significant) penalty of size and weight. However, no good having a small, light system if you end up frustrated with it because it can't deliver what you ask of it or it is holding you back in some way (even if the holding back bit is perception).

As I said, right now I'm in no hurry to do anything. However, Q1 / Q2 will probably see me doing something. Time will tell!!

I'll be interested to see which way you go too!

Simon.
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Don't Olly do a try before you buy scheme? Might be worth trying the EM1-II out to see what you think (y)
 
srhmoto said:
... if I want to overcome some of these limitations and stay within the m4/3 format my choices are either the GH5 or the EM1 mk II. Both are serious money, and would be the most I've ever spent on a single piece of photographic equipment, so I have to be very, very sure they are going to deliver the improvements I want and need to see... If I sold my m4/3 stuff and added it to the circa £1.5 to £1.8k I'd have to spend on a GH5 or EM1 mk II, I could end up with a really nice DSLR system that I know would deliver what I want, albeit at the (potentially significant) penalty of size and weight. However, no good having a small, light system if you end up frustrated with it because it can't deliver what you ask of it or it is holding you back in some way (even if the holding back bit is perception)...
Click to expand...

That is exactly the situation I find myself in. I know a 7D2 & 400 F5.6L would be more than good enough for my action photography needs, but as you say at the cost of weight. I'd also then need a lighter camera for travel, landscapes etc. I think any solution will involve a compromise, it's just where that compromise sits be it money, weight, performance or whatever.
 
@srhmoto your experiences are exactly the same as mine. I don't consider my technique as bad at all but boy is it frustrating when your 13 year old with a d3100 gets more keepers.

At the end of the day, I'm just a hobbiest - £1400 to me is a lot of money, whilst i can afford it, i struggle to justify it - especially if it proves to be a "bad" upgrade in terms of margin of improvement vs money spent. I saw a youtube video on mu-43 of the GH5 vs the E-M1 mk2...and the Oly came second for sports. OK, there wasn't a whole lot in it but ...

Also, the baseline noise still gets on my wick - in poor light ( not dark, just overcast / gloomy ), i see the noise quite noticeable at relatively low levels
 
damianmkv said:
@srhmoto your experiences are exactly the same as mine. I don't consider my technique as bad at all but boy is it frustrating when your 13 year old with a d3100 gets more keepers.

At the end of the day, I'm just a hobbiest - £1400 to me is a lot of money, whilst i can afford it, i struggle to justify it - especially if it proves to be a "bad" upgrade in terms of margin of improvement vs money spent. I saw a youtube video on mu-43 of the GH5 vs the E-M1 mk2...and the Oly came second for sports. OK, there wasn't a whole lot in it but ...

Also, the baseline noise still gets on my wick - in poor light ( not dark, just overcast / gloomy ), i see the noise quite noticeable at relatively low levels
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We're both in the same boat then. I'm also just a hobbiest and have (very) limited funds to spend on camera equipment, so like you I have to get the decision right.

Simon.
 
The thing about m43 is the Oly Pro lenses, they are simply superb by any standard (and you already have those Simon!)

With money absolutely no object, my one camera one lens system would be the EM1ii and 40-150 Pro (or maybe the new 12-100 but I don't own that so can't comment).
 
The 12-100 would suit me for some needs, like drag racing where I rarely need over 100mm but sometimes need wider than 40mm..but then I'd "have" to buy a prime too :bat:

I need to stop thinking about the mk2...I even briefly thought about selling my x100t to fund things..:tumbleweed:
 
Nawty said:
The thing about m43 is the Oly Pro lenses, they are simply superb by any standard (and you already have those Simon!)

With money absolutely no object, my one camera one lens system would be the EM1ii and 40-150 Pro (or maybe the new 12-100 but I don't own that so can't comment).
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I know! I said earlier about not being overly keen about giving these up. I also have the superb Tokina 300mm f2.8 AT-X Pro in Canon FD mount that I would be very sad to part with (even if it is manual everything). May be I just need to follow the advice from @snerkler and get my hands on one for a day. I'd be delighted if the EM1 mk II could tick the required boxes for me!

Simon.
 
I looked at try and therefore you'll buy scheme..it's 3 days as far as I can see ? I did Friday pick up, return Monday so ( if I remember ) I might try before the next race meet in September
 
srhmoto said:
What really hacked me off at the weekend, was that my GX8 and Oly 40-150mm f2.8 in plenty of light and with a totally uncluttered background (flat beach looking out to sea) just could not AF-C on my 5 year old jogging straight towards me (and before anyone questions my technique, I'll point out that I used to supply editorial images to Autosport Magazine and Motorsport News)
Click to expand...

I volunteer to shoot the Wimbledon Junior Park run and my most used setup for this is the E-M1 MkI and the 40-150 f/2.8 PRO. I shoot using "CAF / Sequential L" and most (but not all) of the shots are in focus and I never fill up the buffer. I do struggle sometimes to get the focus where I want it but it doesn't bother me too much. I have also used a 5DIII for this but my main gripe here was that the buffer filled up and I had to wait for it to clear. I'm sure there are better DSLR options out there but for this type of action but the E-M1 MkI is more than adequate in my experience:

20170625_094524_073 by Maarten DHaese, on Flickr

I do intend to upgrade to the E-M1 MkII at some point but in the meantime I'm pretty happy with the E-M1 MkI. I have used a Canon 300D, 350D, 400D, 5D, 5DII and 5DIII and for action I definitely get better results with the E-M1 MkI. I am not a pro though so someone with better skills than me might very well prefer the 5DIII...
 
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