As long as the customers like them..... Discuss

[Phil V]

In response to @andyscott post in Gareth's thread.
Wedding reception - Out of my comfort zone
I can see where Andy is coming from, we shouldn't shoot to impress other photographers..... But!

'Good enough', isn't where most businesses aim. A Kia is 'good enough' to get you to work, but people still want BMW's.

Our customers see their own photos through rose tinted glasses, their mates don't necessarily, nor do other potential customers. So whilst the primary aim is to please our customers, we have other aims too.

Btw, pleasing other photographers is, as Andy says never an aim in itself. Other photographers hopefully have knowledge that'll help you please your customers more.

What's the forum view?

I tried to keep weddings out of the title and question, hopefully this is something all pros should have a view on.

 

[Deleted member 21335]

I am glad you posted this Phil. I made my response clear in that thread and have done in other threads previously.

Of course you want the client to be happy, but I think if that is your only measuring device for success, then it can lead to mediocrity and complacency. None of which I am happy with for my own work, which yes, is primarily weddings. I would like to be regarded eventually as a good wedding photographer, by clients (past and potential) and by other photographers. That's where reccomendation comes in and leads to more bookings and, IMO, more importantly, the RIGHT bookings. Not people who are booking you because your photos are 'OK' at a reasonable price.

It may be idealistic and some people disagree, which of course is fine. BUT, I am not in it purely to make money at whatever cost. I won't shoot, burn and forget. I LOVE wedding photography and hopefully this is reflected in the photos I make. I have set myself these guidelines since starting up earlier this year and when meeting clients, I am sure they can see my passion for capturing their wedding. Again, perhaps idealistic, but I will know in a couple of years if this is the right approach, if it isn't perhaps I will re asses, but until I've tried it, I'll give it a fair shot.

 

[minnnt]

I agree with you Gary. I too strive for good photos, and although I am MOSTLY happy with a few that I churn out, I like to gauge other peoples thoughts and any advice they are kind enough to give me I hope to be able to learn from.

The missus always says my images are good and that she really likes them, but, she's gonna say that isn't she?! I want to improve and learn so being showered with 'great shots' type of comments is a bit pointless.

BUT... you've also got to make sure that as you say Gary, you have the pics in the portfolio to back up what you say on here. Some peoples pics are dire and they call themselves professionals, is that what 'people like' ? Really? Maybe I'm way off the mark, but I'm not a pro so as long as I'm happy with the finished article then I usually run with it. Then post it here and it gets ripped to pieces which again shows I have no idea of the whole portrait game.

I don't want to fall into the realms with a million other togs, I want mine to stand out. It's just a case of trying to develop your own style and wanting to always keep improving it and never getting stuck in a rut. Move with the times etc...

Just my humble opinion.

 

[KIPAX]

When I am on a train .. a long journey and I get hungry.. then I get real hungry.. then I get something from the trolly or the buffet because theres no other choice...and I say.. thats great I feel better. I enjoyed that... yes british rail food I enjoyed and liked eating..

 

[theurbanclown]

Photographers are generally quite insecure about their work so it's nice to hear that couple's are happy with their photos.

However, their comments shouldn't be a gauge for good photography unless you're not that ambitious about where you want to end up in your career.

 

[MWHCVT]

To be honest I must say its one of my biggest pet hates when offering critique/suggestions and the poster comes back with "well the customer liked them" or a variation of that, in most cases it is the biggest cop out ever posted...and why? Well because generally IMO most none photography couldn't tell an okay photo from a expectional photo and because generally they are emotionally invested in the subject of the photo as a rule they'll tend not to notice and/or care about minor flaws....where as I believe as a photographer the day we stop aiming for perfection it's time to stop taking the lens cap off...

 

[andyscott]

In response to @andyscott post in Gareth's thread.
Wedding reception - Out of my comfort zone
I can see where Andy is coming from, we shouldn't shoot to impress other photographers..... But!

'Good enough', isn't where most businesses aim. A Kia is 'good enough' to get you to work, but people still want BMW's.

Our customers see their own photos through rose tinted glasses, their mates don't necessarily, nor do other potential customers. So whilst the primary aim is to please our customers, we have other aims too.

Btw, pleasing other photographers is, as Andy says never an aim in itself. Other photographers hopefully have knowledge that'll help you please your customers more.

What's the forum view?

I tried to keep weddings out of the title and question, hopefully this is something all pros should have a view on.

Ah but good enough is not what I said. However Kia do not want to compete with BMW in the same market, they want to make both of their audiences happy.

We shoot for clients within our target audience. If you want to be better then great, but I have seen to many photographers shoot for photographers and not for clients. This leads to some not having consistency.


I mean we should shoot for our clients and deliver what they want. This could be the best photography commanding a 5 figure price tag or someone charging 400 quid.

Photography is so subjective. For instance a pretty significant other of mine used to absolutely hate photojournalism style photographs. Thought they were no better than holiday snaps. Now of course I didn't agree but had she been a client no matter how technically great they were, if she didn't like them, she didn't like them.
Perception is reality.

 

[simonblue]

I have always been more insecure about my own personal work,than the work I done as an pro

 

[theurbanclown]

I mean we should shoot for our clients and deliver what they want. This could be the best photography commanding a 5 figure price tag or someone charging 400 quid.

Photography is so subjective. For instance a pretty significant other of mine used to absolutely hate photojournalism style photographs. Thought they were no better than holiday snaps. Now of course I didn't agree but had she been a client no matter how technically great they were, if she didn't like them, she didn't like them.
Perception is reality.

All this highlights is that couples should book you for your style. And she wouldn't have booked you if you shoot reportage and that's not what she likes.

 

[andyscott]

All this highlights is that couples should book you for your style. And she wouldn't have booked you if you shoot reportage and that's not what she likes.

No it means clients have likes no matter how technically correct the images are

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The strangest thing I have found,Time and again, is that when you are on song and into a good session you know it at once, even before looking, that you are doing well.
I think all photographers aim for the best they can do, Certainly the idea of just going through the paces to get it over with, would be an anathema for me.

While you are working, money does not come into it, nor does Quality, you simply put everything into what you are doing.

Couples book who ever they like and for manifold reasons. But perhaps mostly on reputation and recommendation. Money can make or break the deal for some, because they simply can't afford the coverage. But that does not mean they want to go elsewhere. Budgets can be an over riding factor.

 

[Phil V]

No it means clients have likes no matter how technically correct the images are

This I'm afraid is the misconception. A customer (or potential customer) wouldn't be able to point out what's technically 'wrong' with an image, but show them one with a fault and a similar one without, and they'd pick the 'correct' one.

They don't know about DoF, or camera technique, composition or colour theory, but those rules and guides aren't something someone dreamt up. Those things were discovered not created, and upon their discovery, academics spread the word. We can study those things, we can use them to help us improve, customers won't know what they're seeing, but they'll know when something is 'better' or 'awesome'.

A customer might see an image and go 'wow' whilst you or I can explain what creates the 'wow'. But the wow is still a wow, and s***e is still s***e.

 

[admirable]

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/th...ride-and-groom-like-them.269938/#post-3111174

 

[sunnyside_up]

To be honest I must say its one of my biggest pet hates when offering critique/suggestions and the poster comes back with "well the customer liked them" or a variation of that, in most cases it is the biggest cop out ever posted...and why? Well because generally IMO most none photography couldn't tell an okay photo from a expectional photo and because generally they are emotionally invested in the subject of the photo as a rule they'll tend not to notice and/or care about minor flaws....where as I believe as a photographer the day we stop aiming for perfection it's time to stop taking the lens cap off...

Who's going to tell us what perfection is, Matthew? You can have professional 'joe blow' tooting off about exposure, composition, lighting etc etc, but if you think his or her work is crap, it's sorta hard to swallow.

By the way, I agree with your post, I'm just throwing the question into the pile.

 

[sunnyside_up]

Ok, so Just a few comments from a non professional trying to find her place in this big ole world....

So three things I've learnt or noticed on my journey-

1. Most average Joes DO know a good photo from a bad photo, but it's just that they can't tell you what makes it good over another. Perhaps it's the composition, perhaps it's the processing, perhaps it's any number of technical quirks or artistic styles that are in play, and of course as Matthew said even just the emotional attachment. All I can do is create what I like, in my style and ability. I shoot for what I like, I process and 'make' photos to suit my style. I've been lucky so far, my clients are happy. It doesn't stop me from trying to better myself even though my clients are happy. I started this game four years ago, they were happy with my safe white and black background shots... But I look at them now and cringe. Thank god I kept learning.

2.without sounding like a snot, which I can assure you I'm not, it's ok to get so called professional advice and critique / feedback from a 'professional' photographer... But I'm sorry, has anyone actually looked at some of these peoples work?? Ok, technically, perhaps right on the money, so they went to school, learnt on film, know everything to know about cameras, exposure, lighting...but can't take a picture to save a life, images about as interesting as moose mounds. Which begs the 'run around in circles' question... What exactly is a professional photographer? I know I'm not...but people have called me that. I always just giggle and say thanks for the compliment. But some people out there calling themselves that are questionable. And when I say that, I make no reference to anyone in particular, on this forum or elsewhere.

3. I've been posting images up on this forum for a little while now. I've gotten some great feedback, and the positive comments are really helpful in keeping momentum. I take away with me the 'constructive criticisms' and weed out what makes sence. I will admit I find it hard to swallow some critiques simply because I don't agree with it, and from people I don't artistically respect as photographers. personally, for me, I feel I turned a corner this year, although I can't tell you to save my life what or who I can put it down to. But I know I like it. My clients like it. But that doesn't stop me from trying to get better.

Just my 5am two cents worth. I'm going back to bed now...

 

[Serendipitous Sid]

Just a few personal observations before the arguments start going round and round ...

As far as professional wedding or portrait photography goes, the only customers I've ever heard of who actually didn't like their snaps were either wedding clients who afterwards regretted spending what they did on their wedding or portrait clients who'd been photographed by snappers who hadn't realised beforehand that they had a potentially unpleasable subject.

It did matter to us that the customer was pleased with their snaps because we liked working with happy people, and because happy customers don't want their money back. But when we went out to shoot a wedding, what mattered most to us was that we did better than we did at the last one. Running a close second was that we produced a set of pictures which in our opinion the customer had every right to be delighted with. And that is not the same as saying "was happy with".

I can honestly say that whilst we constantly sought and got honest critique from many of our peers, what other photographers in general thought of our work was completely irrelevant to us

And btw, for my money Bethy's spot on with her observations in the post above this one ...

 

[Yv]

As a business, your job is to have clients that are delighted with their photos, delighted enough that they recommend you to others, pictures that are 'good enough' that more people book you and ultimately, you run a 'successful' business [success as defined by your own goals, not anyone elses and they are usually financially based]

As a photographer, the aim for most is to improve, to get better, to add to your technical skills and artistic ones and help in that from other photographers is an incredibly useful tool as long as you are able to pick out what is genuinely useful and what is a 'bad steer'. As Bethy said above, not everything will make sense or fit with the path or style you are trying to take.

The above two statements can be taken individually and work well enough, but as a rule, working those two ideas together is probably the best plan for most. As Dan says, what other photographers think is in many ways largely irrelevant to your business, BUT if you seek their opinions, then dismissing them because the client was happy seems like a completely pointless exercise both as a business and as a photographer.

 

[Earley Man]

Firstly a reply to Bethy and her 5 am posting. In view of what I am about to write I want to stress that these are my personal opinions, not fact, they may, and probably will, differ from the view of many others who post on here.

Bethy, as you know I am one of those who has praised your work on here, to me the main reason your work stands out is that what comes across is your sheer enjoyment in doing what you do, and you have communicated that enjoyment to your subjects, who have then reacted to it. This gives the photographs an additional dimension, which very many photographs, although absolutely technically perfect, lack.

To me, and I'll repeat it is a very personal opinion, it seems that a lot of photographers are so concerned about technical perfection, particularly in portrait photography, that they forget to enjoy what they are doing. In some way this gets picked up by the subject and the resulting image lacks 'life' and appears almost mannequin like.

A portrait photograph I commented on some time ago on here is a near perfect example of how sometimes the power of the image can override small imperfections in the image itself. It was a fairly tight head shot and on my first look at it the sheer power of the girl's eyes and expression overrode the small imperfections, which I didn't see until I took a longer look at it. Technically it wasn't perfect, but to me as a photograph of that person the technical imperfections were of no consequence and my comments reflected that.

Secondly, regarding some of the comments about "Well the client liked it". As photographers we tend, as I have written above, to be concerned with technical perfection as we have no emotional connection to the subject. However the subjects, and their relatives, do, and in most cases a very strong one at that. This can lead to very differing reactions by the subject, who has a mental self image, and her relatives who have a different mental image.

Again I can give an example, I recently a photographed a wedding as a favour to a friend of a friend. One of the bridesmaids, 17 or 18 years old, had beautiful blue eyes and with very light makeup had that "English Rose" look. I photographed her in the conservatory before she changed into her bridesmaids dress and, I think, captured it perfectly. In the evening at the reception she had quite heavy makeup and her hair done very differently and, using studio lights, captured her stunning "Hollywood" look. Very different photographs but they both showed different sides of her natural beauty.

I was later told that when her family saw the two photographs her mother was absolutely delighted, had both images printed large and they now hang in her lounge. The girl herself, who I have now been told has low self esteem, still refuses to believe that she looks as she does and doesn't like them. Which shows that although technical perfection may well be important to us as photographers, very often it is of no importance to the subjects as their personal emotion will override all other considerations.

 

[MWHCVT]

Who's going to tell us what perfection is, Matthew? You can have professional 'joe blow' tooting off about exposure, composition, lighting etc etc, but if you think his or her work is crap, it's sorta hard to swallow.

By the way, I agree with your post, I'm just throwing the question into the pile.

Honest answer, I don't think any of us will ever attain perfection...and I certainly don't know who can say what perfection is...but I think we can get close to it sometimes extreamly close...but even once you've nailed down all the technicalities there is still the concept and I think all of us can think of work that we have done that is technically there but there are things, in the concept of the photo that we would like to add/change to improve it still further...

 

[Sir SR]

What Bethy said! That's captured it pretty well. I could have stopped trying to improve if I'd have been happy with the customer likes it mantra but I know that work can always evolve and I put my work up for crit and I do take it on board.

Also I'd add the bigger test is if friends of the clients see the pics and then say "I want some". Not 100% reliable but it helps take some of the emotional attachment out of it.

 

[Serendipitous Sid]

... I'd add the bigger test is if friends of the clients see the pics and then say "I want some". Not 100% reliable but it helps take some of the emotional attachment out of it.

 

[Phil V]

Who's going to tell us what perfection is, Matthew? You can have professional 'joe blow' tooting off about exposure, composition, lighting etc etc, but if you think his or her work is crap, it's sorta hard to swallow.

By the way, I agree with your post, I'm just throwing the question into the pile.

This really is an aside, I missed out on the 'tall gene' and some people treat me as inferior because I'm short, as if it was my choice or because I can't be arsed to grow any taller.

Likewise, not all of us were born with the great talent that you were Bethy* (or many others who frequent the forum). However, after 30 years of photography, and much studying I reckon I know a great image when I see one, even if I'll never be 'Photographer of the year', I'm sure I can still explain technical or artistic issues as can many others. Should older members stop giving advice or critique and crawl back under our rock because we're not greatly talented? Or maybe I should quit because I'm a shortarse (makes about as much sense to me)?

The good news.
Fortunately for me, most of my local photographer competition aren't naturally talented either, and many of them are technically incompetent too, so there's still a market for my work 'cos I'm better than them.

* @Pookeyhead would probably say I was born with it and that I had it drilled out of me.

 

[Pookeyhead]

It depends on how you define good. You mention "photographer of the year", and I assume you mean the TP Photographer of the year? Well... those that win that, will almost certainly not win the Deutsche Boerse prize, or have their work hung in the Photographer's Gallery in London either. The judging criteria are different. The TP Photographer of The Year award is predominantly judged on aesthetic and technical criteria, whereas the Deutsche Boerse prize is judged upon the impact the work has on Photography as a creative and communicative medium and industry: One person's "good" isn't the same as another's. The vast majority of what wins TP POTY has no impact upon the wider industry whatsoever, so is a completely different criteria.

It boils down to this: Which bunch of people do you want to impress.

You could of course simply not give a **** and just shoot what you shoot.

As for your comment @Phil V, I certainly do believe everyone is born creative, and how you are raised and what you are taught has a massive impact upon creativity, yes.

 

[Phil V]

It depends on how you define good. You mention "photographer of the year", and I assume you mean the TP Photographer of the year? Well... those that win that, will almost certainly not win the Deutsche Boerse prize, or have their work hung in the Photographer's Gallery in London either. The judging criteria are different. The TP Photographer of The Year award is predominantly judged on aesthetic and technical criteria, whereas the Deutsche Boerse prize is judged upon the impact the work has on Photography as a creative and communicative medium and industry: One person's "good" isn't the same as another's. The vast majority of what wins TP POTY has no impact upon the wider industry whatsoever, so is a completely different criteria.

It boils down to this: Which bunch of people do you want to impress.

You could of course simply not give a **** and just shoot what you shoot.

As for your comment @Phil V, I certainly do believe everyone is born creative, and how you are raised and what you are taught has a massive impact upon creativity, yes.

The 'photographer of the year' was a throwaway comment not meant to refer to any real competition but as a measure of talent (and I definitely don't associate competitions with talent, that'd be another thread entirely).

If you're right about my upbringing knocking the creativity out of me, how does a bloke of advancing years reverse that (maybe another thread idea)?

 

[joxby]

When I shot for money, I didn't shoot for myself much, for a number of reasons really, mostly the constraints of time and maybe economically it didn't mesh too well with business.
I consider this time the most uncreative period of my "interest" in photography, its not easy to maintain the freedom of expression afforded by others not subjected to the pressures of earning a crust.

 

[Serendipitous Sid]

... how does a bloke of advancing years reverse that (maybe another thread idea)?

In my case, take himself totally out of his comfort zone on several different levels at once by doing an intensive four-day PJ workshop in a foreign country. Best thing I did after marrying The Lady Wife

 

[ajax_andy]

Client is happy = successful job

Many people impressed by your work = successful career

That's the difference IMO, having a happy client should be a given for any photographer, but your work being admired by many people leads to enough bookings to live comfortably (in theory) so you should always strive to achieve far more than a happy client

 

[Serendipitous Sid]

Client is happy = successful job

Only if you either made a realistic profit on the job or it was worth doing for any other benefit accruing from it.

Many people impressed by your work = successful career

Nope. Not at all. They have to want to pay you to do that work for them, at a price at which you clear whatever you want/need to in order to build and/or maintain your business. And you have to manage things so that different people keep on wanting you to do that.

 

[Phil V]

In my case, take himself totally out of his comfort zone on several different levels at once by doing an intensive four-day PJ workshop in a foreign country. Best thing I did after marrying The Lady Wife

Let me know where to send the bill

Seriously, it's on my wishlist, but it might never get to the top.

 

[ajax_andy]

Nope. Not at all. They have to want to pay you to do that work for them, at a price at which you clear whatever you want/need to in order to build and/or maintain your business. And you have to manage things so that different people keep on wanting you to do that.

Well yeah that goes without saying, but let's face it if 100's of people visit your site very year and love the images, and people who were guests at weddings you've shot and loved the pics, well let's just say you're pretty much on the way to doing ok.

 

[ancient_mariner]

It's an interesting question.

Stepping back from the photography for a moment, I work in an industry where the phrase "perfect is the enemy of good" has been a mantra for many years, and good = delivering world class products to a hugely competitive market. Good to me implies that it meets every reasonable expectation for a product of that type.

So I'd see good and acceptable would be producing images to a high standard in the style your customers would expect, without failures/duffers. Because this is a craft with a personal touch, rather than operation of a CNC machine, one might expect to see the occasional exceptional image and care being taken to ensure that weak images did not slip through. I'd be interested to know how many wedding or portrait photographers spend 15-20 minutes on each image in post, carefully squeezing the very best they can from it. I'm sure the answer is none, because no-one really has the time to do that when they have to deliver a couple of hundred images, but instead the images will be processed to be 'good enough' and if additional work is required then it will be applied.

 

[Pookeyhead]

The 'photographer of the year' was a throwaway comment not meant to refer to any real competition but as a measure of talent (and I definitely don't associate competitions with talent, that'd be another thread entirely).

If you're right about my upbringing knocking the creativity out of me, how does a bloke of advancing years reverse that (maybe another thread idea)?

By exposing yourself to a great deal of creativity Forget what you know, and what you think is creative, and start looking at a great deal of stuff that's WIDELY regarded as creative to see how you can steer your work in a different direction. Sooner of later, your way of looking at things will change.

The biggest barrier to creativity in most cases is internal. By far the hardest people to teach are those that have a lifetime of amateur photography and camera clubs under they're belt, as they're too set in their ways. You don't strike me as that sort though.

 

[Phil V]

By exposing yourself to a great deal of creativity Forget what you know, and what you think is creative, and start looking at a great deal of stuff that's WIDELY regarded as creative to see how you can steer your work in a different direction. Sooner of later, your way of looking at things will change.

I like doing galleries, but I don't get as much time to as I'd like, I suppose I should research more online.

By far the hardest people to teach are those that have a lifetime of amateur photography and camera clubs under they're belt, as they're too set in their ways. You don't strike me as that sort though.

Ta, I'm not.

 

[Serendipitous Sid]

Well yeah that goes without saying, but let's face it if 100's of people visit your site very year and love the images, and people who were guests at weddings you've shot and loved the pics, well let's just say you're pretty much on the way to doing ok.

I respectfully disagree. You (generic) may think you are, and it might feel good, but ...

... By far the hardest people to teach are those that have a lifetime of amateur photography and camera clubs under they're belt, as they're too set in their ways.

 

[boyfalldown]

I think, at the end of the day if you have delivered a set of images where the only thing said about them is "the client likes them, that's all that matter". Then you have dodged a bullet

 

[big soft moose]

Ah but good enough is not what I said. However Kia do not want to compete with BMW in the same market, they want to make both of their audiences happy.
.

Even Kia practice quality control though - they may aim for a more utilitarian finish/performance than a Boomer , but they still have a standard that they aim to achieve. - no car manufacturer (or indeed any other succesful company) throws together the bare minimum and says " okay so everyone thinks its crap but the customer is happy because it goes and its cheap" ... principally because although the initial customer may love it , if all their freinds come away from riding in it saying " king hell i'm never buying one of those" then they'll pretty soon be out of business,

 

[big soft moose]

I think, at the end of the day if you have delivered a set of images where the only thing said about them is "the client likes them, that's all that matter". Then you have dodged a bullet

Indeed - imo "the customer likes them" as uttered on a forum is roughly the equivalent of "mummy says i'm speshul".. and generally translates as "you said my work was crap, secretly I agree , but I lack the cojones to take fair critique on the chin, so i'm going to offer pointless rebutal and subsequently learn nothing to help me improve"

 

[jonbeeza]

In response to @andyscott

'Good enough', isn't where most businesses aim. A Kia is 'good enough' to get you to work, but people still want BMW's.

Had the Kia Ceed estate for three years, it was fully loaded and the best car I have ever had. Now got the new Volvo V40, not as good as the Kia. Yes the Volvo may have leather seats, but user experience is nowhere near as good as the Kia

 

[jonbeeza]

Even Kia practice quality control though - they may aim for a more utilitarian finish/performance than a Boomer , but they still have a standard that they aim to achieve. - no car manufacturer (or indeed any other succesful company) throws together the bare minimum and says " okay so everyone thinks its crap but the customer is happy because it goes and its cheap" ... principally because although the initial customer may love it , if all their freinds come away from riding in it saying " king hell i'm never buying one of those" then they'll pretty soon be out of business,

Kia cars are not cheap / low cost, they still cost a pretty penny, and so they should as they are good cars. Just like Skoda, they had a bad name many years ago, but those days have long gone.

 

[CanonDjango]

I think the aim of the photographer in the end makes a difference to the answer.

If the photographer is working in their career purely to bring money home and put food on the table with no other aspirations other than expanding their business to bring more money home to put better food on the table then it really does boil down to "as long as the client is happy"

I mean the client is the one paying and the ultimate aim is to take money from them and put it into your own pocket. The skill in doing that better and better is about 10% to do with how good your photos are and 90% to do with how well you can run a business, sell, customer service and a whole host of other reasons totally unrelated to photography.

There are countless examples that I am not going to link to of people that earn a lot of money doing very middle of the road work. Their financial success not being related to the standard of their work.

If the aim of the photographer is to progress through a career getting better and better, trying to win competitions, awards, recognition etc then their work needs to be better all the time and the thoughts of the clients need to be that they are happy but it's their peers and themselves that need to be impressed.

I think most photographers are a bit of both - we need food, we want to improve all the time, we want happy clients, we want to feel we are getting better etc.

There are some folk who just need the cash and there are others who just want the prestige. It's a bell curve as usual