Atom 360 flash

HoppyUK said:
To Garry, how does the Y-adapter make a difference to this?
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It makes a difference to the recycling time, it halves it.
Apart from the obvious "normal" benefits of having a flashgun that recycles very quickly, when used in strobe mode with the 360 model it is essential to have it, otherwise it just fires a very small number of flashes (about 3 at half power from memory) before it runs out of steam (or capacitor charge) :)
It isn't needed with the 180 at half power, it can keep up without it.
HoppyUK said:
That 'appears' to look like very poorly implemented pulsed-HSS, with individual pulses visible and brightness not held at a constant level. If that's as good as it gets, not very satisfactory IMHO. Maybe Garry could do an oscilloscope trace of that - it would be interesting to see, if nothing else.
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I'd like to do an oscilloscope trace, especially as we now have a very high end one that can do pretty incredible things. Problem is though, that we're a man down due to illness, and another one has left, so my usually busy life is even busier right now.


HoppyUK said:
Wooster, an unavoidable characteristic of tail-hypersync is the exposure fades, getting darker from bottom to top of the frame - as the focal plane shutter tracks the fading brightness of the flash. This is why a long flash duration works best for tail-hypersync, as the brightness fades more gradually.
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And this is apparent in Mike's first shot, I don't have an explanation for the second one.
 
All right chaps. I'm now wondering given Mike's comments re the flash overheat issue with HSS and given that I don't really understand Long tail sync but know a bit more about it since this thread started. Can I begin again and ask this question.

I have the 360 flash, the wave sync triggers, and my 5D3. I want to be able to use faster shutter speeds with this set up. What do you recommend I do next to achieve this. I will consider HSS or Long tail sync, even tail-end or whatever is the easest

If you can bear with me one more time I'd be grateful. Thank you :)
 
wooster said:
I have the 360 flash, the wave sync triggers, and my 5D3. I want to be able to use faster shutter speeds with this set up. What do you recommend I do next to achieve this. I will consider HSS or Long tail sync, even tail-end or whatever is the easest
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The question is for what type of images will you be using it for?

Mike
 
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wooster said:
All right chaps. I'm now wondering given Mike's comments re the flash overheat issue with HSS and given that I don't really understand Long tail sync but know a bit more about it since this thread started. Can I begin again and ask this question.

I have the 360 flash, the wave sync triggers, and my 5D3. I want to be able to use faster shutter speeds with this set up. What do you recommend I do next to achieve this. I will consider HSS or Long tail sync, even tail-end or whatever is the easest

If you can bear with me one more time I'd be grateful. Thank you :)
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Godox Cells II is the obvious choice, though any trigger that can extract the HSS timing moment from the camera will work. Both HSS and tail-hypersync use the same timing moment (ie, fractionally before the first shutter curtain opens).

Bear in mind that with all these techniques there is a big hit to max usable light output, like a minimum of two stops and likely much more.
 
wooster said:
All right chaps. I'm now wondering given Mike's comments re the flash overheat issue with HSS and given that I don't really understand Long tail sync but know a bit more about it since this thread started. Can I begin again and ask this question.

I have the 360 flash, the wave sync triggers, and my 5D3. I want to be able to use faster shutter speeds with this set up. What do you recommend I do next to achieve this. I will consider HSS or Long tail sync, even tail-end or whatever is the easest

If you can bear with me one more time I'd be grateful. Thank you :)
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Tail end sync works perfectly well in many (most)? situations. All that it requires is a flash duration that's long enough and, within reason, the longer the better.
Yes, there is inevitably some uneveness of ilumination across the frame, that's inevitable - but if you're using it outdoors then the contribution made by the ambient light will minimise its visibility, and if you're photographing a 'busy' subject then it will matter far less than if you're photographing (at the other extreme) a white wall. We tend to photograph white walls to create benchmark images to show just how good or bad the fall off of illumination is, but you really only need to use fast shutter speeds outdoors, where it is usually more important to be able to get a shot that would wouldn't be able to get without it than to get a shot that is technically excellent...

HoppyUK said:
Godox Cells II is the obvious choice, though any trigger that can extract the HSS timing moment from the camera will work. Both HSS and tail-hypersync use the same timing moment (ie, fractionally before the first shutter curtain opens).

Bear in mind that with all these techniques there is a big hit to max usable light output, like a minimum of two stops and likely much more.
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I'm not sure that the Godox Cells 2 is the obvious choice here... It's been around for about 3 years now and things move very quickly in electronics, and many people recommend the newer Yongnuo YN-622. I was given a Cells 11 just before they came out but couldn't do any really comprehensive tests with it as I didn't know anyone who used pro Canon cameras, it wasn't great with the consumer model Canon that I was able to borrow, but this may have been down to the slow shutter of the camera.

The Cells 2 has a passthrough hotshoe that you can plug the Wavesync into, but it's on the side of the unit, which is far from ideal. The Yongnuo YN-622 has the same facility but the hotshoe is on the top, which is much better. Using the Wavesync with either the Cells 11 or the Yongnuo will give you both tail end sync and full remote control.

Yes, you definitely will lose light if you use Tail end sync, but the loss won't be extreme if you set the shutter to 1/1000th or 1/2000th - the problem arises when the shutter is used at its maximum, usually 1/8000th, and there is absolutely no point in using such a fast shutter speed because although 1/8000th will severely reduce the contribution of the ambient light, it will have the same effect on the flash light too. It's a bit like driving your car down the high street at 150 mph just because it can go that fast - maybe it can, but it really isn't a good idea:)
 
Garry Edwards said:
Yes, you definitely will lose light if you use Tail end sync, but the loss won't be extreme if you set the shutter to 1/1000th or 1/2000th - the problem arises when the shutter is used at its maximum, usually 1/8000th, and there is absolutely no point in using such a fast shutter speed because although 1/8000th will severely reduce the contribution of the ambient light, it will have the same effect on the flash light too. It's a bit like driving your car down the high street at 150 mph just because it can go that fast - maybe it can, but it really isn't a good idea:)
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Why you might need 1/4000

Sunny 16 rule says f16 at 1/100s with ISO 100, so f2.8 would be 1/3200s (F2.8 common max aperture for 70-200 and I have plans for a 200mm f2 which would need 1/4000) and therefore to achieve fill at 2 stops less we are only looking at f1.4 for the fill flash. The fact that the power is reduced by both techniques is not an issue because we do not need a lot of it but we do need the higher shutter speeds and which is why I have said that the banding is not an issue at 1/8000 because I would most likely be at 1/4000 worst case scenario.

I was sent a pm last night and best to answer here.

I think these are great lights and I can think of no other light that will allow both HSS (pulsed) and Hypersync (long tail) - I am pushing them to the limits with the tests I have done and identified that they are pretty much perfect for how I will actually use them. Testing is not real use. In fact when I get the chance to test with brighter ambient light I am looking at adding to the 2 that I already have.

Do not see what is written here as an issue with the equipment but more it is down to the fact that the terminology is not consistent between brands of triggers and lights and can and as has been demonstrated will cause confusion.

Mike
 
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Garry Edwards said:
I'm not sure that the Godox Cells 2 is the obvious choice here... It's been around for about 3 years now and things move very quickly in electronics, and many people recommend the newer Yongnuo YN-622. I was given a Cells 11 just before they came out but couldn't do any really comprehensive tests with it as I didn't know anyone who used pro Canon cameras, it wasn't great with the consumer model Canon that I was able to borrow, but this may have been down to the slow shutter of the camera.

The Cells 2 has a passthrough hotshoe that you can plug the Wavesync into, but it's on the side of the unit, which is far from ideal. The Yongnuo YN-622 has the same facility but the hotshoe is on the top, which is much better. Using the Wavesync with either the Cells 11 or the Yongnuo will give you both tail end sync and full remote control.
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The reason why the Cells II works well with the system (for Canon) is that it talks directly to the FT-16/FT-16s Rx as a Tx in it's own right. You don't need to mount the FT-16 (Wavesync) on the pass through hotshoe because its only purpose becomes remote power control
which it can do happily unmounted; ie sitting in your pocket!
 
DemiLion said:
It speeds up (theoretically doubles) the capacitor's recharging time.
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Yes, but you don't actually 'need' the Y-adapter as Garry said earlier.

DemiLion said:
The reason why the Cells II works well with the system (for Canon) is that it talks directly to the FT-16/FT-16s Rx as a Tx in it's own right. You don't need to mount the FT-16 (Wavesync) on the pass through hotshoe because its only purpose becomes remote power control
which it can do happily unmounted; ie sitting in your pocket!
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Which is why I suggested Cells II as the obvious choice. Maybe a minor advantage.
 
DemiLion said:
I thought that was referring to the AD180?

Happy to accept that I'm wrong as I've got them anyway! :)
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I was just asking after Garry's comment in post #2: "The Atom 180 will do HSS 'as is' but the Atom 360 needs the power doubler to make it work..."
 
Let's just stick to 'does it or doesn't it' for the moment. The equation will get far too complex otherwise! :)
 
DemiLion said:
I thought that was referring to the AD180?

Happy to accept that I'm wrong as I've got them anyway! :)
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The power doubler halves the recycling time with both the 180 and the 360 - this makes it very useful for all usage.
With the 360, it's actually necessary when using it in HSS or stroboscopic mode, with the 180 it isn't.

The power doubler shouldn't be confused with the Y connector - the doubler fits both terminals on the PowerPack and channels power from both sides to the flashgun, the Y connector fits to 1 connector and then splits to two outlets, allowing 2 flashguns to be powered from one terminal,
 
Thank you all. I believe I have an understanding of how I should proceed now :)

Mike, I will use it for fill in outdoor portraits with faster lenses.

I am likely to grab the Cells II and use the Wavesync as remote. I will probably stick to the tail-end/long tail/bobtail or whatever you call it method and see how it goes.

I will buy the doubler because it is a good thing to have for recycling time anyway.

It's been an interesting thread. Thank you everyone :)
 
wooster said:
Thank you all. I believe I have an understanding of how I should proceed now :)

Mike, I will use it for fill in outdoor portraits with faster lenses.

I am likely to grab the Cells II and use the Wavesync as remote. I will probably stick to the tail-end/long tail/bobtail or whatever you call it method and see how it goes.

I will buy the doubler because it is a good thing to have for recycling time anyway.

It's been an interesting thread. Thank you everyone :)
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Tip with tail-hypersync - you can use the inverse square law to counteract the reduction in brightness up the frame, or at least substantially reduce it. ISL says that at double the distance (light to subject) the brightness is reduced to one quarter - a two stops drop. Therefore, if you position the flash above the subject, the ISL fall-off down the frame will counteract the tail-hypersync light reduction up the frame. Or, turn the camera vertical and position the flash to the pentaprism side - same effect, and often easier in practical terms.

Needs a bit of fiddling to get it right but can make a very useful difference.
 
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