Back to the future... or does the end justify the means??

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Douglas
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I read a thread earlier, where the discussion seemed to lead one to the conclusion that a lens without IS was somehow sub-standard. I begin to wonder where new technology is taking us, and how we ever managed to take a sharp photograph without IS??

Are all the superb sharp pictures taken with a 70-200 f 2.8 lenses of yesteryear, these poor lenses crippled without IS, just abberations?? The odd lucky shot?? Were the photographers just fortunate to make the shot, and find it sharp??

Of course not.

I sometimes despair when I see this sort of subject being discussed. IS is an aid, a means to an end, nothing more. Why does an 18-55mm zoom need IS?? I can see it's value when using a big heavy lens at long focal lengths, but surely most people can manage a sharp handheld capture at 55mm without an artificial aid??

Are we as a group, going soft?? Are we forgetting what fun we had with 35mm film cameras, and big heavy zooms?? We took photographs then, and with an act of faith, expected the resultant picture, to be sharp, and well exposed.

Photography is well over 150 years old, and the vast majority of the best photography ever, that exhibited in museums, captured for ever in books about famous photographers, and extolled by many as some of the finest captures ever made, were made with glass negatives, and 35mm film. No modern technology, and in a lot of cases, unmetered, with the exposure guessed by the photographer.

My favourite photographer of all time, Frank Meadows Sutcliffe, produced perfection, with an old plate camera. Perfectly exposed, bitingly sharp, beautifull framed, and exemplars of the photographers art. I'm sure that he made many bad shots, and these were, of course, discarded, at great cost, both in terms of financial loss, and time. But he would have learned a valuable lesson from each discarded capture.

Today, digital film is free, as are processing costs. We can expose 1000 shots in a day, review them and discard 995, and the remaining 5 have cost nothing, and yet we applaud ourselves for producing fine, well exposed images, and tell ourselves how good we are.

The makers of modern equipment make matters even worse. They produce a state of the art £2000 camera, which we all agree is the greatest and best camera ever made. We congratulate ourselves on spending a months salary when we buy one, yet two years later, we are persuading ourselves that this camera that was producing the work we were so proud of, is now out of date, old hat, and of little further use, whilst we tell ourselves how much better life will be when we buy our new electronic marvel.

Are these cameras, in reality, any better?? Sure, it may have a bigger monitor, a sensor with a new acronym, more MPixels, a live view screen, a better burst rate, etc, etc. Whilst this new wonder may make picture taking easier and more convenient, will it actually make better pictures, or more importantly, make us better photographers?? Sure, the software that we use in post production will enhance, and if we like, improve a capture if we don't like the product of our new wonder camera. Does this make us better photographers?? Sadly, I think not.

What about all the fabulous old fast lenses, made without compromise or regard to cost 20 years ago for the only people that could afford them, the professionals? Are we to dismiss them because they dont have the latest motors that will establish AF confirmation a second or so faster, or have IS, which will make them easier to use?? These lenses are as good now as they were 20 years ago, in fact, some are far better than their modern equivalents, yet we still buy the newer ones, and convince ourselves that they will make us better photographers.

Are the photographers, members of our community here, who can't afford, or justify the latest technology any less photographers because their equipment is a few years old, or do their photographs suffer because they are not using the latest IS lenses?? Of course not, in fact I often see pics that are taken with such equipment that are far better than anything I have managed to produce.

I'll be the first to admit that I would love an AF 600mm f4 IS lens. It would make possible shots that at the moment I can only dream of, but here's the rub. For less than half the price, I could have a manual focus 600mm f4 that would take pictures every bit as good, but would take a little more effort.

It is my belief that that we are becoming shutter bugs, and pixel peepers, enjoying photography more for it's technological excellence, rather than concentrating on the end result. More and more, I find myself looking at old camera reviews, and the examples produced by older cameras, and if the truth be told, I really can't see any difference between the output of say, a D100 and a D300, or a D1X and a D2X. I'm sure that if you printed them up to poster size, then you would see a difference, but when was the last time you had a poster made??

The only possible arguement I can see for utilising the best and latest technology, is for the real professional, who makes his living from photography, when the difference between an indifferent shot and a good one can be realised in terms of time and cash. Yet, in truth, there are still professionals making their living with film cameras, both 35mm and medium format. My daughters wedding was photographed using a Mamiya medium format film camera, and the results were spectacular - far better than my efforts using a Canon1D MkIIN and a few L lenses, and I consider myself to be a reasonable photographer, indeed for several years, I made my living with a film camera.

So, is the latest modern equipment making us better photographers?? Perhaps. I am fairly certain however, that we would be even better without it, relying as we would have to, on our own skills, rather than technology.
 
most important part of the camera kit isn't in the bag at all, its the brain that works the camera...without its just a case of 'all the gear, no idea'...
 
I read a thread earlier, where the discussion seemed to lead one to the conclusion that a lens without IS was somehow sub-standard.


You havent linked to the thread and i cant see it..

Sports photographers tend NOT to use or want IS ... I wouldn't waste my money on it to be honest :)
 
I agree with you, Doug. I don't think it is making us better photographers... I think it is making it EASIER for us to BECOME better photographers without all the hard work.

Pressing a button when we would've had to have done something with some thought involved, is not necessarily a good thing in my book.
 
You havent linked to the thread and i cant see it..

Sports photographers tend NOT to use or want IS ... I wouldn't waste my money on it to be honest :)


A link isn't necessary. Read some of the posts in Talk equipment, and you will soon see where I am coming from.
 
Doug, I'm using some of those old lenses (probably 30 years old) on my 450d, ok, I had to get an adapter, but they work. I have IS on my 18-55 lens, it came with the camera, most of the time the IS doesn't even kick in, and I have had occasions where I've turned it off as it's caused problems for something I was trying to shoot. I don't think I produce better images with either lens, but I use both modern IS and old manual lenses as it's what I have and I can't afford the latest and greatest with all the bells and whistles. I love the IS on the 55-250 and it's saved me a fair few times from not getting a shot at something at longer FL and slower shutter speeds.
 
Sssssh! Keep quiet about how good all the old gear is so prices don't skyrocket like they have with the Vivitar 285s and Nikon SB2X flashes!!!

I do 100% agree with you though.
 
I suppose if I was photographing plays for a living I would need IS for every shot.. But for sport never need it... It has its place like anyhting else...
 
70-200 f2.8 was sharper than the IS version. non IS versions have less elements in them which also makes them lighter. IS is only useful in certain situations but market forces are directing lenses to have IS rather than a requirement to make them good. using IS also makes your battery last not as long. IS in long FL heavy lenses does make sense where a small amount of movment means lots of blur but for tha majority of the time its not needed.
 
most important part of the camera kit isn't in the bag at all, its the brain that works the camera...without its just a case of 'all the gear, no idea'...

Do you know where I can buy a brain and how much it would cost please. Are their any second hand ones available? :lol::lol::lol:


P.S. Seriously...... you're absolutely right though.
 
Do you know where I can buy a brain and how much it would cost please. Are their any second hand ones available? :lol::lol::lol:


P.S. Seriously...... you're absolutely right though.

I've got one you can have, hardly used, very cheap.

This is an interesting and thought provoking thread. You are, of course, right we spend many pounds on equipment because we are told we need it to improve. But I've just looked at the work of some older photographers and the images they produce are in many cases stunning. Mmmm food for thought.

Andy
 
Very interesting read dougdarter, I wish I such eloquence in describing my thoughts!

I am reasonably new to SLR photography, owning a modest 400D with a Sigma lens; nothing expensive, no red lines, no white telephoto lenses. I know my images will never match the optical quality of a 5D paired with an L lens, yet I know I could never go back to using a compact. I anticipate that when I upgrade to 5D MKII (when.. not if!), I will not be happy using my 400D again, and would laugh at the thought of using a compact even though I know my compact would have been marvelled at 20 years ago.

It is the human condition to not only want more and want better, but to adjust expectation and satisfaction based on what else you know you could have. This leads to 'lens envy' and other such afflictions, where you're constantly wanting to catch up with image quality you've seen elsewhere, whether it be that sunset taken with a 1Ds MkIII, or that portrait taken with a 70-200 f2.8L.
"If I hadn't seen such riches I could live with being poor" I beleive is the line.

However... In most arenas we do now expect a certain optical quality as standard, which is why photojournalist-types don't use 350Ds and why wedding photographers don't use D40s. Most professional applications do require these expensive bits of kit to deliver what people want, regardless of the talent of the photographer, and the composition, sharpness and exposure of the pictures.

All that being said, we all know that optical quality and the latest camera technology does not always equate to a good photograph, and definitely does not make a good photographer in itself. Most of us ar not concerned with the difference between DIGIC II and DIGIC III processors, most do not care about the various compounds used in lens coatings. Each to their own. But without those types there would be no need to advance technology and push the boundaries. No money would be invested in developing precision technology such as 24MP sensors because no-one would really be bothered buying it. Why invent the lightbulb if the candle was OK(for anyone who's seen the Honda adverts).

In summary though I wouldn't worry about who's old-school and who's a techno-geek. Modern technology does make everyday photography easier, let's be honest, however it does also raise the bar on what's considered a good quality image.
 
Do technological advances make for better photographers ? No.

But they do increase the shot opportunities that photographers have available to them.

I often work in extremely marginal lighting conditions at weddings - IS, good high ISO, fast shutter recycles and 'zero' shooting cost allow me to experiment and capture shots that wouldn't have been possible (or at least acceptable quality) 5 years ago. Long may the march of technology continue.
 
Well, I'm a self confessed gear junkie :D Wll it make me a better tog? Nope. Do I care? :D You guessed, nope!

Its like buying a Ferarri to go to and from work, stupid but fun :)

I agree with your sentiments, but you need to take into account people who buy not to improve photography, and instead, their lust for gear and I guess "ego" a little too.

Gary.
 
I think it is important to separate what we mean by IS when describing lenses

The IS function or a lens that happens to have IS (an IS lens)


I have owned both the 70-200 f2.8 non IS (which I have sold and replaced with) 70-200 f2.8 IS version. I brought the non IS as it was cheaper lighter and better image quality then the IS version and I considered that I did not need IS when taking photos at 1/400th+ for most of the sports I do with this lens.

The IS version of this white lens (like all the white IS lenses) has the electronics changed to allow faster focusing by doubling the initial voltage sent to the focus motors (according to Canon) - so the 300 IS, 400 IS 500 IS and 600 IS all focus quicker, then the non IS versions.
The IS version also has better weather protection - important to me as I often get wet..., and considering these factors I thought the upgrade was worth the money – it does seem to focus faster and is better in the rain (the hood is better too)

I doubt that someone doing portraits will see much difference between the magic drainpipe - the original canon 80-200 f2.8 and the latest 70-200 f2.8 IS - but make it work hard doing sports and the differences will show...

I have the IS function on my 24-105 lenses, - on these lenses the function seems to be a waste of time, as it has a little effect on the image - although on the 70-200 the IS function is much more noticable at 200mm
 
Interesting topic, and many valid points raised.

I'm still using my first DSLR (Nikon D50) which I've now had for just over 2 years. It's been replaced twice now by newer models (D40 and D60) but isn't a lesser camera because of that.

On the other hand, if I could afford to upgrade the body, why not do it? I was struggling at a 24hr race a few weeks back as the high ISO performance of my camera is pretty shocking, and I wanted to shoot into the night without flash. If I could have afforded a D300 it would have made certain shots far more acceptable that were pretty much written off with what I had. If people have the money to upgrade I can't see a problem, as long as they don't assume that having the latest camera is going to improve their shots.

If anything I've always thought that my financial restrictions have helped me, I used a bridge camera for 3 years and pretty much learned all my photography 'skills' from that, it was seriously limiting in some ways, but made me far more creative in others. I honestly believe if I had £3k spare instead of £300 when I started out with this hobby, I wouldn't be anywhere near the standard I am today. I'm fortunate now to have managed to get a cracking lens (120-300 2.8), but that's felt like a natural step up, not buying for the sake of it.

The ego thing is an interesting point, I've always found that amusing, as my ego has been stroked far more by ringing the neck out of 'entry level' equipment than I'm sure it would have been if I had access to all the best gear. When I was using my Panasonic FZ20 I shared my photos with a load of motorsport togs that had thousands of pounds worth of gear, and they were always hugely appreciative of my work. You see a lot of people using an entry level telephoto (such as a 70-300 4.5-5.6) who ask what lens to get to improve their shots...point them in the direction of Flickr and pick out a few good shots taken with the lens they are using, and more often than not it's clear they could get a further 50% or more out of the equipment they are using. The belief, however, is that better equipment will instantly improve what they are doing.
 
What a fabulous post Doug, certainly thought inducing............:thumbs:
 
£1000’s worth of the latest technological equipment will not take a good photograph. He/she that presses that shutter button does that!

Modern technological advances can also aid in you taking lots of crappy shots quicker than using film.
 
Do technological advances make for better photographers ? No.

But they do increase the shot opportunities that photographers have available to them.

I often work in extremely marginal lighting conditions at weddings - IS, good high ISO, fast shutter recycles and 'zero' shooting cost allow me to experiment and capture shots that wouldn't have been possible (or at least acceptable quality) 5 years ago. Long may the march of technology continue.

This is exactly the kind of opinion I share, well said Duncan.

Technology has always enchanted me and I embrace it's progress. I look forward to it's advances and get very excited when hearing wind of significant discoveries.

Very interesting topic Doug, I really admire the thought you have put in. I have had to accept and face a few home truths that sometimes my interests in equipment has gotten out of control over the years.

I think that when it comes to facilities or functions such as VR or IS, it may increase the jammyness/luck of a less experienced user but apply an even more increasing amount of pressure or a very tight time restraint for example and the flukes will disintergrate. (Certainly does with me)

For me, it doesn't matter how many luxurious functions become available, if your hearts not in photography then your not going to produce the same results as someone who has.
I really don't think anyone can rely on the technology of their equiptment alone to get them results or make them something that they are not.

Generally speaking, there's alot of folk (including myself) who have a genuine interest in technological offerings and capability, this preference can be beneficial and also destructive. It's about moderation and balance.

To know your options and research what's best for your requirements and more realistically, your budget, is common sense.
After many years of being a sales assistant in a City centre, I think that most folk are worried about spending their hard earned cash and therefore agonize on details, the insignificant and significant, especially when you about to close and cash up.
There are so many options available and so many wrong choices to make.
Now, I am a retailers worst nightmare as money has always been a highly sensitive issue throughout my life and still is, I can safely say that I don't stand alone so cautiously and inquistively we go.

Technology will always progress and doesn't last forever. For a long time I relied on second hand gear, it's great until it breaks and then where does that leave you?
I still buy second hand but if I need to rely on a piece of gear heavily then I'd prefer to have it new and with a warranty.
The short term financial loss and potential long term financial gain kinda theory. (I earn all my living from my gear).

I agree completely that the single most advanced and most expensive camera is not a necessity, meeting your requirements is however and this is where we need to be honest with ourselves.

T.
 
Couldn't agree more Doug. I took better pictures and had a better "success rate" for shots taken back 35 years ago when every shot cost money. So I had to check and double check what I saw through the viewfinder. Today it is so easy and you can slip into the point and shoot mode with kit I could only dream of years ago - what a waste! To that end I wonder if high tech kit is actually counter-productive, letting you rely too much on technology rather than technique.
Having said all that, IS/VR/OS call it what you will, is a great boon to me now that my joints are not what they used to be. I need not always lug a tripod when I go out walking.;)
 
Sssssh! Keep quiet about how good all the old gear is so prices don't skyrocket like they have with the Vivitar 285s and Nikon SB2X flashes!!!

I do 100% agree with you though.

yep tell me about it. Try picking up a Super Takumar SMC 50mm f/1.4 M42 on ebay for under £45..however, its been said in many places that this is one of the finest 50mm ever made, sharp at all apertures - considering the modern (and less IQ) equivelent 50mm f/1.4's sell for over £200, I'd say thats a bargain. The difference? well get an adapter that has a chip and whilst it won't AF, it will tell you in the viewfinder when the lens is in focus. Plus you'll have to manually change the aperture on the lens...no biggie. (but with a Nikon you can't focus to infinity making this lens not so good a prospect there, but with Canon and Sony there are no issues)

I guess its the convenience of it all :shrug: but yes I agree, alot of the old technology is being ignored because of newer stuff. Some of the old Zeiss M42 primes can be had for a steal (£20ish). A hidden gem is the Super Takumar 55mm f/1.8, goes for about £15 and is only very slightly behind the 50mm f/1.4
 
It's the general rule that IS lenses aren't as sharp as the non-IS but there are exceptions. The 70-200 F4 IS is regarded for its sharpness over the non-IS F4.
So it just shows that lens design is key.

I don't think its right to associate IS with faster focussing or weather protection. It just happens that all these things were introduced into newer, more high tech designs at the same time.

I also think IS isn't essential in a lens. But given the choice i would have it :)

I think it is important to separate what we mean by IS when describing lenses

The IS function or a lens that happens to have IS (an IS lens)


I have owned both the 70-200 f2.8 non IS (which I have sold and replaced with) 70-200 f2.8 IS version. I brought the non IS as it was cheaper lighter and better image quality then the IS version and I considered that I did not need IS when taking photos at 1/400th+ for most of the sports I do with this lens.

The IS version of this white lens (like all the white IS lenses) has the electronics changed to allow faster focusing by doubling the initial voltage sent to the focus motors (according to Canon) - so the 300 IS, 400 IS 500 IS and 600 IS all focus quicker, then the non IS versions.
The IS version also has better weather protection - important to me as I often get wet..., and considering these factors I thought the upgrade was worth the money – it does seem to focus faster and is better in the rain (the hood is better too)

I doubt that someone doing portraits will see much difference between the magic drainpipe - the original canon 80-200 f2.8 and the latest 70-200 f2.8 IS - but make it work hard doing sports and the differences will show...

I have the IS function on my 24-105 lenses, - on these lenses the function seems to be a waste of time, as it has a little effect on the image - although on the 70-200 the IS function is much more noticable at 200mm
 
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