Baiting Bops

[fracster]

@den and @NeilB

Happy to discuss things in here rather than spoil the other thread.

So what is your beef Neil?

 

[den]

I've made my point on the OP thread ,I will continue to be transparent with my little owl images and how I get them ,its fully documented all over the forum and I must be doing something right as I wouldn't have one of the top professional wildlife photographers in the country asking me how I am getting my owl images ,if neil as a problem with baiting BOP which he as fully documented on here then that's his problem ,I really didn't think he had a issue with baiting BOP for photographs as nothing in his previous comments on shots on baited BOP show that he as a problem with it ,in fact totally the opposite ......

 

[Neil B]

@den and @NeilB

Happy to discuss things in here rather than spoil the other thread.

So what is your beef Neil?

Well we could of done this on PM as the other member is on my invisible list so here goes.

It's always been my way and opinion that when i look at a image and see a obvious set up / workshop type shot then it's no different than going to a zoo.
I have only ever paid for images twice, once was for sea eagles on Mull and the other was the Farne isles, i came away with nice images from both but the handing over £'s took the edge off and i will never be doing it again.
Back to Mull sea eagles, the skipper explained that he was under strict controls that only allowed him to feed a limited number of fish (6 i think) each trip and he did a rotation of spots.
The point of this was that the birds would not depend on him as a food supply.
So when i see shots from locations that must of had a huge amount of defrosted mice put out for birds that would normally catch a live food source then yes you could say thats an example of not having any thought for the birds welfare.
I can't remember back to your Buzzard set up but i'm sure it was done with more respect for the birds welfare

 

[BRASH]

Well we could of done this on PM as the other member is on my invisible list so here goes.

It's always been my way and opinion that when i look at a image and see a obvious set up / workshop type shot then it's no different than going to a zoo.
I have only ever paid for images twice, once was for sea eagles on Mull and the other was the Farne isles, i came away with nice images from both but the handing over £'s took the edge off and i will never be doing it again.
Back to Mull sea eagles, the skipper explained that he was under strict controls that only allowed him to feed a limited number of fish (6 i think) each trip and he did a rotation of spots.
The point of this was that the birds would not depend on him as a food supply.
So when i see shots from locations that must of had a huge amount of defrosted mice put out for birds that would normally catch a live food source then yes you could say thats an example of not having any thought for the birds welfare.
I can't remember back to your Buzzard set up but i'm sure it was done with more respect for the birds welfare

May I congratulate you on your use of English. Very refreshing. Nature is as nature does but you'll always get perversions of that. Indeed I've refuted such doctrines in the past but theorising the ethic is never justification of the act, however misguided the conceptual intention.

 

[big soft moose]

So how is it different to people feeding birds in their garden (which is actively encouraged by the major bird charities ) ?

End of the day so long as the food supply doesn't end suddenly whats the problem ?

Personally I suspect that most of the whining and bitching aimed at Den is motivated either by jealousy or by off forum motivations or grudges rather than a genuine concern for the subjects welfare

 

[oldandintheway]

May I congratulate you on your use of English. Very refreshing. Nature is as nature does but you'll always get perversions of that. Indeed I've refuted such doctrines in the past but theorising the ethic is never justification of the act, however misguided the conceptual intention.

yep,... whatever he said

 

[Neil B]

So how is it different to people feeding birds in their garden (which is actively encouraged by the major bird charities ) ?

End of the day so long as the food supply doesn't end suddenly whats the problem ?

Personally I suspect that most of the whining and bitching aimed at Den is motivated either by jealousy or by off forum motivations or grudges rather than a genuine concern for the subjects welfare

Can't remember seeing your name on the OP's thread but then again why miss a opportunity to do some s*** stirring eh

 

[BRASH]

My dad used to say if you've f*** all to say, best say f*** all. Great advice I thought (and follow).

 

[fracster]

Nothing to do with Den in particular . Just thought it would be a good subject for debate.

Pete, if you don't know the difference between feeding garden birds and predators then you are more ignorant than you appear, if that is possible. You really should not comment on things you know little about, especially when you think you are an expert on every topic.

That said, and to answer Neils point and question in the other thread. We had an estate with 3000 acre of woodland, an ex shooting estate with not a single buzzard nest. I'm sure I don't need to point out why. So yes, I did start leaving bait out and they came in, we now have three nesting pairs. I occasionally drop food in the winter, just to help them along, I did take some shots, guilty as charged, but they are primarily on their own now.

Same with the recent badgers moving in.I have heard reports of some workshops that do sparrow hawks having mist nets set up. Is that acceptable or not? Not for me.

The baiting subject is sensitive and will create strong emotions. But lets try and keep civil.

Pete, before you reply, try actually posting a photo to support your supposed knowledge and expertise.

 

[den]

May I congratulate you on your use of English. Very refreshing. Nature is as nature does but you'll always get perversions of that. Indeed I've refuted such doctrines in the past but theorising the ethic is never justification of the act, however misguided the conceptual intention.[/QU

So how is it different to people feeding birds in their garden (which is actively encouraged by the major bird charities ) ?

End of the day so long as the food supply doesn't end suddenly whats the problem ?

Personally I suspect that most of the whining and bitching aimed at Den is motivated either by jealousy or by off forum motivations or grudges rather than a genuine concern for the subjects welfare

You wont be the first to say that Pete .....and Ne

So how is it different to people feeding birds in their garden (which is actively encouraged by the major bird charities ) ?

End of the day so long as the food supply doesn't end suddenly whats the problem ?

Personally I suspect that most of the whining and bitching aimed at Den is motivated either by jealousy or by off forum motivations or grudges rather than a genuine concern for the subjects welfare

I would say that you are 100% in that comment Pete..

 

[den]

you

Can't remember seeing your name on the OP's thread but then again why miss a opportunity to do some s*** stirring eh

Well we could of done this on PM as the other member is on my invisible list so here goes.

It's always been my way and opinion that when i look at a image and see a obvious set up / workshop type shot then it's no different than going to a zoo.
I have only ever paid for images twice, once was for sea eagles on Mull and the other was the Farne isles, i came away with nice images from both but the handing over £'s took the edge off and i will never be doing it again.
Back to Mull sea eagles, the skipper explained that he was under strict controls that only allowed him to feed a limited number of fish (6 i think) each trip and he did a rotation of spots.
The point of this was that the birds would not depend on him as a food supply.just for photographs
So when i see shots from locations that must of had a huge amount of defrosted mice put out for birds that would normally catch a live food source then yes you could say thats an example of not having any thought for the birds welfare.
I can't remember back to your Buzzard set up but i'm sure it was done with more respect for the birds welfare

What a load of rubbish, you say when you look at a image of workshop type of shot its no different than going to the zoo, so what ,that's just your opinion ,the issue here is your comment about baiting BOP ,why pick on my set up when you know absolutely nothing about my on going work with them ,I also notice you never took same attitude towards Alan Mcfayden and his baited sparrowhawk or Neil Neville and his little owl set up,or all the other set ups ,images from those set ups were shown here regular and you applauded them as far as I am concerned you have no right to judge me at all, I have four little owl sites and only one is baited ,the baited site does not rely on me for food ,were do you think I got my help and information from all these years ,I will tell you from the people that run professional sites and the contacts at the hawk and owl trust ,do you really think and believe I don't have the welfare of the owl as top of my list ,just ask people who have been to my site who have to end the session early if they don't abide by the rules ,the bird comes first any issues and its straight out and i mean out ,I have also refused pro photographers permission to do night sessions with flash ,I could go on but I wont ,just don't judge me or try to knock me as you really don't know how far my passion goes for these birds ,I could have made a fortune charging people to visit the site but I don't take money unlike other sites ,I am just careful who I allow to visit so don't tell me have no respect for the birds welfare because you know nothing about the behind the scenes work I do.

 

[big soft moose]

I guess Gigrin farm are completely in the wrong too (despite being instrumental in the welsh red kit recovery project)

 

[fracster]

I guess Gigrin farm are completely in the wrong too (despite being instrumental in the welsh red kit recovery project)

totally different topic Pete. The red kites ate now so prolific that they should stop feeding them as heavily. Though once again, you take extreme examples to try and make a point. Not surprised @Pookeyhead falls out with you so much.

 

[BRASH]

May I introduce you all to the full stop

.

Thank you.

 

[Pookeyhead]

totally different topic Pete. The red kites ate now so prolific that they should stop feeding them as heavily. Though once again, you take extreme examples to try and make a point. Not surprised @Pookeyhead falls out with you so much.

FFS... please don't drag me into an argument in a BIRD thread! Pete's stupid.... I get it... but he's annoying enough in the actual photography threads without having read about how moronic he is in other threads too.

 

[Yv]

Enough, Keep it to a discussion on baited birds please. In fact let me rephrase that, keep it to civil discussion on baited birds. And use full stops.

 

[tim]

Personally, I don't think Den should even be compared to the likes of the people who were feeding Locust to the RFF.

You have only got to look at his Flickr photostream and the thread on here to see how much time and patience has gone into getting the images of the Little Owls that he does. 99% of his photo's are of the Little Owl. That, in my mind, is dedication and pure passion for his subject. Minute hide movements over days just to get the perfect angle for the right shot. It is my thought that he has studied these birds over time, their behaviour and you would assume he has also taken the welfare of the bird/s into consideration. Why wouldn't he? It's his hobby! He still wants them to be there tomorrow. This isn't about getting a tick in a box for him or getting one shot of one bird its a photographic/Little Owl journey.

The RFF feeders turned up to get that one shot and called in at Pets at Home on the way for their "bait" to increase their chances.

Why insult someone who not only appears to have a great knowledge his subject but the site/s he uses and the equipment he owns too.

I say keep up the good work Den! I think anyone who has gone to the effort of setting up their own hide, site, feeding station, reflection pool or whatever it may be for their own pleasure/enjoyment and have also been completely open about it deserve some recognition or praise.

On the other hand however, what amuses me are people who pay to visit a "wild" bird, photograph it, and then display those images making out as if they stumbled across it "just as it happened" It's nothing more than wildlife prostitution.

"Oh I see, you just happened to be neck deep in the local river holding your camera when a Kingfisher dropped in to grab the minnow that was 10 feet in front of you. What are the chances... ?"

 

[fracster]

Tim, the thread isn`t about Den. More about the morality and ethics of artificially feeding Bops. I have no problem with Dens set up and his enthusiasm is there for all to see. I get fed up of seeing so many shots of the subject, but that is just me. I`m sure many more get pleasure seeing his very good shots of that subject.

But where do we draw the line? In my opinion, once the subjects get dependant on the artificially introduced food supply, then the line has been crossed.

On your last two paragraphs, then yes, I agree with you. But it can and has happened more than once. Just being out there gives you more chance of just happening across great opportunities that cannot be set up. Example is spotting a tawny owl in broad daylight eating road kill pigeon.

Should have added, do we all agree that catching small songbirds in mist nets,killing them and leaving them as bait for sparrow hawks is wrong?

 

[den]

Thank you Tim,what I don't believe members realise is the fact that I was watching these birds before I picked up a DSLR camera, many year's before I joined Tp.......I was quite happy viewing these birds with a old Panasonic Tz10 until a member on here encouraged me to try for perched shots etc, I had always been able to get close to them but I was reluctant to leave food specifically for photographs, this I did not do until I did a lot of research on the very subject of Baiting Bop,,the problem is people only see the end result and don't realise that the image as taken me hours to get, I could throw 10 mice out and get shots all night long but I don't ,I follow a strict rules that I take on board from expert's

 

[tim]

"once the subjects get dependant on the artificially introduced food supply, then the line has been crossed."

100% Agreed, the photograph should be secondary, the wildlife welfare a priority.

 

[den]

This thread might not be about Me ade, but I don't half get a lot of snarky comments aimed at me especially by a certain member,especially were little owls are concerned

 

[Joeturner11]

Personally, I don't think Den should even be compared to the likes of the people who were feeding Locust to the RFF.

Agreed, Simply. People that are feeding the Locust's to the RFF don't give a rats about the bird only the image on the back of the camera, where as Den is clearly not doing the same at all, more like on the opposite end of the scale. I do find this very on sided as this topic seems to be about Den than the Owls he photographs with great care and pride with not so well hidden remarks from other members at him that have been going on over a long period of time...

 

[fracster]

I`ve said it twice now Joe, as far as I am concerned, the thread is not about Dens little owls.

More about what is or is not acceptable to people in the pursuit of bird of prey photography.

I even used full stops.

 

[BRASH]

Next stage the humble paragraph. Neither forth nor astern but perhaps backwards. I think it's on the money.

 

[jerry12953]

I've been following all this with interest; and also the thread on Birdforum about the red-footed falcon.

I do have a problem with photographers paying a small fortune to sit in a set-up hide to photograph baited birds of whatever species. Whatever happened to field craft?

I'll post a link to the Birdforum thread below; it's instructive to read what non-photographers say about photographers, in my opinion. It's a long read but might be of interest.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=3256545#post3256545

 

[jerry12953]

I guess Gigrin farm are completely in the wrong too (despite being instrumental in the welsh red kit recovery project)

At one time they may have modestly assisted in sustaining the dwindling Welsh kite population over the winter, but it was by no means the only such site. Other people, farmers and individuals fed the birds over the winter without ever charging the public. Gigrin Farm is now largely a commercial venture. At Bwlch Nant-yr-arian, for example, you can now see the same spectacle and only pay for your car-parking

 

[Gaz J]

I've used hides that are operating on a commercial basis, and probably will again, where bait is specifically provided to attract a certain species. Although they have the choice of whether they take that bait I don't know enough about it to know how easily they become dependent on the food.

For a lot of photographers, for certain species, this is the only way that they will ever get the opportunity to photograph them and I guess you can take the view that as it's going to happen with or without my participation then I might as well use it also. There must be very few osprey images that are taken in this country that don't come from a paying hide, and even fewer high quality images.

I really don't see the problem with giving BOP a helping hand though. There are people on here that know far more about these birds than I ever will and genuinely have their interest at heart. Is a bit of easy food in the breeding season or through the winter really making the birds reliant on it? They have enough trials to get through as it is, and if helping them out gives photographic opportunities then good luck to those individuals.

However I do think that baiting short term is wrong. If you're going to help them out then make that commitment to do it properly and continue to do so.

 

[u8myufo]

May I introduce you all to the full stop

.

Thank you.

May I introduce you to a question mark,when asking something?

?

 

[BRASH]

May I introduce you to a question mark,when asking something?

?

That was the whole point you mug

 

[BRASH]

 

[Digisatman]

The advice given by the ICBP if you are feeding Birds then you should feed them 365 days,

 

[Byker28i]

At one time they may have modestly assisted in sustaining the dwindling Welsh kite population over the winter, but it was by no means the only such site. Other people, farmers and individuals fed the birds over the winter without ever charging the public. Gigrin Farm is now largely a commercial venture. At Bwlch Nant-yr-arian, for example, you can now see the same spectacle and only pay for your car-parking

There's a few now though isn't there, charging in one way or another to see the birds, huge amounts of chicken pieces put out. I believe these are generally fed every day?

Having read this, and as an non bird photographer, I'm still left a little confused. Is this about exploiting wildlife for ones own purpose, in which case isn't then Red kite feeding a valid example. How about the wildlife trust, slimbridge etc, providing safe havens, food, along with conservation work, but allowing paying public in to view/photograph to support the work.

Why are birds of prey different?

 

[hollis_f]

How about the wildlife trust, slimbridge etc, providing safe havens, food, along with conservation work, but allowing paying public in to view/photograph to support the work.

They also allow the public to pay extra to feed the birds!

 

[Gronk08]

They also allow the public to pay extra to feed the birds!

At all WWT sites such as Slimbridge you can only (or should only) feed the captive birds, yes a few wild birds enter the captive pens to take advantage of this free and easy meal, but in the pure wildlife/conservation areas the public are not allowed to feed the birds, only staff may put out additional food such as grain for the Swans etc during the winter months, and here the level of feeding differs dependent on the weather conditions.

There has to be a distinct difference about feeding to conserve/help the birds be it in your garden or some where such as Gigrin farm and then putting food out just to attract a bird(s) just for the sake of getting that perfect shot and ideally that should not just cover BOP but also any wild birds.

I know there are many contradictions to this such as feeding the ducks down at the local park or throwing a chip to a passing gull while at the coast but you have to way up the pro's and con's so I would say you have to make a judgment call on a case by case basis.
A good example is the Red Footed Falcon which is currently within my home city, here people are/have been baiting the bird with locusts although the bird with patience will give extremely close views and is quite happy feeding on natural prey within the paddocks, with this example there is no need to feed the bird but still people were just because they wanted the bird in a certain spot rather than using a bit of skill and patience and just work with how the bird was performing naturally.

Tim.